Thoughts on Super Saiya-jin power-ups

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Thu Feb 19, 2004 12:32 am

During the beginning of the Cell Games, it doesn't appear as if the difference in power between Super Saiya-jin Gohan and Vegeta is that large. Gohan is clearly remarkably powerful, and I believe that Vegeta even comments on that, but based on the former's performance against Perfect Cell and the latter's battle with the Cell Juniors, the difference is not enormous. I believe that it's reasonable to use as a premise that they both -started out- in the Cell Games with a similar level of power.

Then Gohan achieved the "Super Saiya-jin 2" stage during his battle with Cell and instantly exceeded the regular Super Saiya-jin stage.

When Cell uses the teleportation technique to return to Earth shortly after self-destructing, Cell appears to have greatly increased strength. (equivalent to the injured Gohan's Super Saiya-jin 2) Vegeta is physically incapable of harming this version of Cell and only manages to briefly stagger him with an energy attack during Cell's "Kamehameha duel" with Gohan. This version of Cell is also able to knock Vegeta unconscious for a considerable period of time with a single blow. It's clear from this that Cell (and by inference Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan) is an order of magnitude stronger than Super Saiya-jin Vegeta. Cell and Gohan are so strong that they are effectively invulnerable to Vegeta and could defeat him effortlessly. From this we can conclude that Super Saiya-jin 2 is a form so far beyond the initial Super Saiya-jin stage that there's no comparison in power.

Flash forward to the Buu Saga; Majin Vegeta and Goku are essentially exactly equal to one another in their Super Saiya-jin 2 forms. Later in the saga it's established that Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku is roughly equivalent to "Fat" Majin Buu and "Kid" Buu in power. HOWEVER; Super Saiya-jin 2 Goku and Vegeta are -still- able to fight evenly with those forms of Majin Buu for short periods of time. Their blows appear to be effective (effective as possible given Buu's regeneration abilities) against Buu and their energy attacks penetrate and even momentarily disintegrate Buu's body. Furthermore, Buu does not seriously injure Super Saiya-jin 2 Goku and Vegeta with single attacks (unlike the enhanced form of Perfect Cell against Vegeta in the Cell Games) and is clearly -not- as far beyond Super Saiya-jin 2 as Super Saiya-jin 2 and "enhanced" Perfect Cell were beyond the original Super Saiya-jin stage.

With that in mind, it seems as though "Fat" and "Kid" Buu (and by inference Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku) are not stronger than the second level of Super Saiya-jin by an enormous margin -- or at least, not stronger by a factor equivalent to the difference in power between Super Saiya-jin 2 and normal Super Saiya-jin.

My conclusion was that Super Saiya-jin 3 does not offer a power-up as great as Super Saiya-jin 2.

urhash · Post by **urhash** » Thu Feb 19, 2004 1:13 am

Good post.

>> My conclusion was that Super Saiya-jin 3 does not offer a power-up as great as Super Saiya-jin 2.

I read that a LONG time ago back before DBZ came to america, and said the same thing in the "Transformations" thread when it started. "I remember reading that the step up from SSJ2 to SSJ3 is not as significant as SSJ1 -> SSJ2." http://db.schuby.org/daizex/viewtopic.php?t=4

If you really think about it, SSJ3 didn't beat anybody in the Buu saga.

The only person Goku beat in SSJ3 is that Hildegarn guy in Movie #13. Correct me if I'm wrong, anyone.

I'm not sure if it's correct to say Kid Buu isn't much stronger than SSJ2. I mean, he beat the CRAP out of Vegeta when it was his turn and Goku switched out. SSJ3 Goku stayed competitive, but SSJ2 Vegeta didn't have a chance in hell.

Dan

P.S. I love these sorta discussions, btw.

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Thu Feb 19, 2004 1:23 am

"I'm not sure if it's correct to say Kid Buu isn't much stronger than SSJ2. I mean, he beat the CRAP out of Vegeta when it was his turn and Goku switched out. SSJ3 Goku stayed competitive, but SSJ2 Vegeta didn't have a chance in hell."

I actually tend to agree -- "Kid" Buu was much stronger than Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta; just not on an entirely different "level" of power. I would personally estimate that "Kid" Buu was perhaps ten times stronger than Vegeta at the most. Of course, that's just opinion.

urhash · Post by **urhash** » Thu Feb 19, 2004 1:32 am

Digressing slightly, I found it weird that when Vegeta first 'switched in' to fight Kid Buu, he didn't turn SSJ. He stayed normal and got his ass handed to him, until Goku rescued him and continued the fight.

Why would Vegeta do that? He just saw Goku in SSJ3 lose, and yet he goes in there without powering up? =P

Maybe he was at a point where he didn't need to turn SSJ in order to gauge power level... and after taking a pummelling he just knew he wasn't in the same league. *shrug*

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Thu Feb 19, 2004 1:43 am

Perhaps Vegeta knew that he would only need to intercede briefly before Goku recovered and didn't want to expend any energy he didn't have to? After all, Vegeta seemed thoroughly exhausted by the time Goku began forming the Genki Dama -- keeping pace with "Kid" Buu even over a short period of time was obviously very draining.

Post by **VegettoEX** » Thu Feb 19, 2004 2:06 am

Hey, guys... can we use the "Quote" feature, please? ^^;; Thanks, and have fun!

laserkid · Post by **laserkid** » Thu Feb 19, 2004 5:40 am

you know, considering SSJ3 was a tongue in cheek joke, wheras SSJ2 was a serious plot element, your conclusion should surprise no one ^__^;;

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Thu Feb 19, 2004 11:13 am

I think the reason Vegita did not turn SSJ was because it would only waste energy. Remember at that point, Vegita's task was only to keep Buu occupied in battle. The most important thing Vegita had to have at that point was endurance, he needed to last as long as possible and becoming a SSJ would just eat up necessary energy. He couldn't beat Buu as a SSJ anyway, so he wouldn't gain anything from the transformation either. Goku told him he just needed a minute, and Vegita ascertains that he can manage that, I believe meaning he calculated that using the least amount of energy as possible, that's how long he could last, hopefully without getting killed, too.

urhash · Post by **urhash** » Thu Feb 19, 2004 1:11 pm

No no, this was before Vegeta said "You're #1". Goku wasted so much energy that when he tried to power up even more, he slipped out of SSJ3 and just collapsed. Vegeta came over, said "Switch out!" and took over the fight (this was when there were thousands of little Kid Buu's floating around mocking them). After Vegeta got beaten handily, Goku came back in, and while they were fighting Vegeta begins to realize that Goku is #1 and later on offers to hold Buu off for a minute.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Thu Feb 19, 2004 4:52 pm

I still say it was because he knew a transformation wouldn't get him anywhere. It would just waste energy while not even give him much of an advantage.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Thu Feb 19, 2004 7:17 pm

From this we can conclude that Super Saiya-jin 2 is a form so far beyond the initial Super Saiya-jin stage that there's no comparison in power.

Uhh...YEAH!

That's the whole purpose of the different transformation levels.

The French Daizenshuu called SSJ2 "Super Saiyan 2, ou 'Super Saiyan au niveau 2'." This means "Super Saiyan 2, or Super Saiyan to the second power". That's not just a litteral translation. In french you wouldn't say "to the" either, so basically they were saying SSJ2's power level is the same as SSJ's power level multiplied by itself.

They then call SSJ3 "Super Saiyan to the third power". (Super Saiyan "cubed")

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Thu Feb 19, 2004 8:33 pm

But the whole point of James' post is that the difference between SSJ 1 and 2 is far greater than the difference between SSJ 2 and 3. If they really did mean "squared" and "cubed", then SSJ 3 would be far, far, FAR more powerful than SSJ 2 than that was compared to SSJ 1.

Besides, I don't think that anywhere else do they state that "Super Saiyan 2 = Super Saiyan 1 Squared"

Professor Daravon · Post by **Professor Daravon** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 4:25 am

Super Saiya-jin 3 was only really used in battle twice: once against fat Buu, once against Kid Buu. The first time, against fat Buu, Goku wasn't trying to win because he still had this idea in his head that those who are still alive should protect their own planet. He was just helping stall Buu long enough for Trunks to rescue the dragon radar before the city was blown to hell. The second time, against Kid Buu, Goku was alive again, therefore suffering the effects SSJ3 has on a living body -- namely, that it puts a serious drain on energy. Goku mentions that at full power SSJ3, he thinks he could beat Buu, but the only time he fought Buu seriously at SSJ3, he wasn't able to attain full power. SSJ2 Vegeta may have traded blows with fat Buu for a while, but ultimately he lost, and after regenerating, Buu showed no lingering damage. SSJ3 Goku, had he been serious, would have been able to win the battle. And there's the difference between them. I mean, if I recall correctly, even Trunks, at lowest level Super Saiya-jin, got a good hit in on Buu at one point coming in to rescue Vegeta shortly before the suicide blast. Vegeta did *appear* to be relatively even with Buu for a while, but that might be all it was -- appearance. Besides that, everyone seemed pretty damn impressed when Goku unveiled Super Saiya-jin 3. No one was saying, "Well he looks different but he's not that much stronger..." They were floored. SSJ3 would seem to be a significant upgrade over SSJ2, even though it doesn't actually look like it fairs any better in battles against Buu.

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:32 am

Professor Daravon wrote:Super Saiya-jin 3 was only really used in battle twice: once against fat Buu, once against Kid Buu. The first time, against fat Buu, Goku wasn't trying to win because he still had this idea in his head that those who are still alive should protect their own planet. He was just helping stall Buu long enough for Trunks to rescue the dragon radar before the city was blown to hell.

Goku may not have been trying to win at that point, but I think it's doubtful that he -could- have won even if he -had- been making every effort to destroy Buu -- remember that Goku was exhausted by the time he teleported away. I think Goku would have depleted his remaining energy and been forced to return to the afterlife within minutes had he not quit the fight.

Professor Daravon wrote:Goku mentions that at full power SSJ3, he thinks he could beat Buu, but the only time he fought Buu seriously at SSJ3, he wasn't able to attain full power.

I don't think that Goku can generate enough energy to completely destroy Buu's body -even- at full power Super Saiya-jin 3, otherwise just taking Mystic Gohan's energy for the final Genki Dama would have been enough to finish "Kid" Buu.

Professor Daravon wrote:SSJ2 Vegeta may have traded blows with fat Buu for a while, but ultimately he lost, and after regenerating, Buu showed no lingering damage.

Buu didn't exhibit any cumulative damage after fighting Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, either -- it's just that Goku was fast enough and durable enough to match Buu and extend the length of the battle.

Professor Daravon wrote:SSJ3 Goku, had he been serious, would have been able to win the battle.

That's really speculative, since Goku -did not- defeat Buu on his own and most of the fighters routinely exaggerate their own abilities.

None of the Buu forms appeared to suffer any severe cumulative damage when fighting the Saiya-jin. Buu had to be completely disintegrated with a single attack in order to destroy his body and prevent him from regenerating. If Goku wasn't capable of doing that immediately after transforming into a Super Saiya-jin 3 during the fight with "Kid" Buu (when he ostensibly was at maximum power), it doesn't seem like it would -ever- be possible for him to completely destroy Buu. Moreover, Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks (who was evenly matched with "Super" Buu, just as Goku was with "Kid" and "Fat" Buu) couldn't summon the energy necessary to obliterate Buu's body, either. Goku had to gather an -enormous- amount of energy using the Genki Dama technique to finally kill "Kid" Buu.

Professor Daravon wrote:And there's the difference between them. I mean, if I recall correctly, even Trunks, at lowest level Super Saiya-jin, got a good hit in on Buu at one point coming in to rescue Vegeta shortly before the suicide blast.

"Fat" Buu was kicked by Super Saiya-jin Trunks while he was pre-occupied with stomping on Vegeta. Earlier in the Buu Saga, Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan kicked an undistracted Buu with almost no effect. I think the logical conclusion is that a fighter's ability to withstand blows is directly proportionate to his attentiveness and whether he knows to "strengthen his ki" in time to absorb the blow.

Professor Daravon wrote:Vegeta did *appear* to be relatively even with Buu for a while, but that might be all it was -- appearance.

Vegeta was wiping the floor with him (although not causing any permanent damage) until Buu used a powerful energy attack which Vegeta -stupidly- failed to avoid. I think that the fight could have lasted much longer had Vegeta not allowed himself to become critically injured by that attack.

Professor Daravon wrote:Besides that, everyone seemed pretty damn impressed when Goku unveiled Super Saiya-jin 3. No one was saying, "Well he looks different but he's not that much stronger..." They were floored. SSJ3 would seem to be a significant upgrade over SSJ2, even though it doesn't actually look like it fairs any better in battles against Buu.

Oh, I agree that Super Saiya-jin 3 is much stronger than Super Saiya-jin 2 -- my position is just that it's not as -much- of a strength increase compared to Super Saiya-jin 2 over the initial Super Saiya-jin stage.

Zackarotto · Post by **Zackarotto** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 10:58 am

James R. Cadwell wrote:I think the logical conclusion is that a fighter's ability to withstand blows is directly proportionate to his attentiveness and whether he knows to "strengthen his ki" in time to absorb the blow.

This is very true... at least in the DB world, you have to strengthen yourself for any incoming blows... just like when Vegeta chose not to strengthen himself when Kuririn blasted him in the Freeza saga.

urhash · Post by **urhash** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 11:03 am

How does SSJ4 compare to SSJ3? And does it represent the greatest power increase (between stages)?

Post by **TripleRach** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 3:33 pm

I have to agree with Professor Daravon that SSJ3 Gokuu never fought full out. The second time was because of his living body, and the first time was just for stalling. After Gokuu teleports away from the first battle, he has this conversation with Piccolo (translated, and no romaji, to make it shorter):

Piccolo: That Super Saiya-jin 3 from before... If you had gone all out, you would've been able to beat Majin Buu, wouldn't you? Well, am I wrong?
Gokuu: No, well... As far as Majin Buu's strength goes, it's ridiculous... It probably would've been impossible for me to win, I think.
Piccolo: Probably? Why didn't you, of all people, try to fight him to the end... Because of the energy matter?
Gokuu: No... I'm a person who really shouldn't be here anymore. I'm not supposed to do the fighting. It would be better if the youngsters somehow settled things. Don't you think something incredible will probably show up again? This is a dangerous risk, but... But I feel I should leave everything to those two super genius chibis.

Gokuu says weird things here. Judging by just the "probably impossible" part, people tend to think that means he couldn't have beaten Buu at that point. But then the second paragraph is his main reasoning, which is also linked to needing his remaining time for teaching Fusion. There's no admission of power here, but I believe later Gokuu does admit that he could have beaten Fat Buu, and regrets that he didn't.

As for SSJ2 Vegeta: When he fought Fat Buu, Buu didn't really fight back, until Vegeta slightly hurt him and he did the big "I HATE YOU" explosion. SSJ2 Vegeta could barely touch Kid Buu at all; Mr. Satan and Fat Buu ended up helping him.

And SSJ3 Gotenks was just a complete idiot.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 3:43 pm

And SSJ3 Gotenks was just a complete idiot.

Totally agree.

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 3:58 pm

TripleRach wrote:I have to agree with Professor Daravon that SSJ3 Gokuu never fought full out. The second time was because of his living body, and the first time was just for stalling. After Gokuu teleports away from the first battle, he has this conversation with Piccolo (translated, and no romaji, to make it shorter):

I'll agree that Goku may not have been fighting at his maximum potential during his first battle with Majin Buu. However; what makes you think that Goku -could- have destroyed Buu other than a few lines of dialogue which aren't supported by any objective evidence?

TripleRach wrote:Piccolo: That Super Saiya-jin 3 from before... If you had gone all out, you would've been able to beat Majin Buu, wouldn't you? Well, am I wrong?
Gokuu: No, well... As far as Majin Buu's strength goes, it's ridiculous... It probably would've been impossible for me to win, I think.
Piccolo: Probably? Why didn't you, of all people, try to fight him to the end... Because of the energy matter?
Gokuu: No... I'm a person who really shouldn't be here anymore. I'm not supposed to do the fighting. It would be better if the youngsters somehow settled things. Don't you think something incredible will probably show up again? This is a dangerous risk, but... But I feel I should leave everything to those two super genius chibis.

Gokuu says weird things here. Judging by just the "probably impossible" part, people tend to think that means he couldn't have beaten Buu at that point. But then the second paragraph is his main reasoning, which is also linked to needing his remaining time for teaching Fusion.

Dialogue is somewhat of a tenuous basis for any argument. Especially when Goku's comments about his own ability to destroy Majin Buu are vague and ambivalent. Like I mentioned in one of my earlier posts; Goku had to use an incredibly powerful "Genki Dama" to finally destroy Buu -- neither Goku or Vegeta were able to inflict any cumulative damage on "Kid" Buu, which seems to imply that the -only- method of destroying Buu is by directing a sufficient amount of energy at him in a single attack.

Think about it this way; if Goku did indeed have the energy necessary to kill Majin Buu at full power Super Saiya-jin 3, then Mystic Gohan (who was arguably much stronger) should -also- have had the energy to accomplish that -- but if that were the case, -only- Gohan would have needed to contribute to the final "Genki Dama" to bring it to the energy level required to destroy Buu. That wasn't the case.

TripleRach wrote:There's no admission of power here, but I believe later Gokuu does admit that he could have beaten Fat Buu, and regrets that he didn't.

Doesn't Vegeta also "admit" that he's a Super Saiya-jin in the Frieza Saga? Dialogue isn't a source of empirical evidence unless it concerns a direct observation and doesn't -contradict- that observation.

TripleRach wrote:As for SSJ2 Vegeta: When he fought Fat Buu, Buu didn't really fight back, until Vegeta slightly hurt him and he did the big "I HATE YOU" explosion.

That's kinda because he -couldn't- fight back until he had a moment to recover from Vegeta's relentless blows -- Vegeta was dominating the beginning of that battle because "Fat" Buu was either too slow or too stunned to react.

TripleRach wrote:SSJ2 Vegeta could barely touch Kid Buu at all; Mr. Satan and Fat Buu ended up helping him.

Vegeta was able to land a number of hits on "Kid" Buu and they did have an effect (however slight) -- which didn't happen when Vegeta attacked the enhanced version of Perfect Cell.

Post by **TripleRach** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:53 pm

James R. Cadwell wrote:I'll agree that Goku may not have been fighting at his maximum potential during his first battle with Majin Buu. However; what makes you think that Goku -could- have destroyed Buu other than a few lines of dialogue which aren't supported by any objective evidence?

Gokuu has shown to be very self-aware person who does not overestimate his own ablilities. (At least after the 21st Tenkaichi Budoukai and Red Ribbon Army Saga, where he was first learning that he's not the strongest in the world.) He usually knows whether he's strong enough and not strong enough, though he still tries either way. He's been shown to be very knowledgeable in this area. If he says something about his own strength, or someone else's, I don't have any reason to doubt it.

James R. Cadwell wrote:Dialogue is somewhat of a tenuous basis for any argument. Especially when Goku's comments about his own ability to destroy Majin Buu are vague and ambivalent. Like I mentioned in one of my earlier posts; Goku had to use an incredibly powerful "Genki Dama" to finally destroy Buu -- neither Goku or Vegeta were able to inflict any cumulative damage on "Kid" Buu, which seems to imply that the -only- method of destroying Buu is by directing a sufficient amount of energy at him in a single attack.

Think about it this way; if Goku did indeed have the energy necessary to kill Majin Buu at full power Super Saiya-jin 3, then Mystic Gohan (who was arguably much stronger) should -also- have had the energy to accomplish that -- but if that were the case, -only- Gohan would have needed to contribute to the final "Genki Dama" to bring it to the energy level required to destroy Buu. That wasn't the case.

That's not how Genkidama works. It doesn't just absorb all of someone's power. When Kaiou-sama initially explains how it works, he says it takes "just a small amount of energy" from living things.

James R. Cadwell wrote:Doesn't Vegeta also "admit" that he's a Super Saiya-jin in the Frieza Saga? Dialogue isn't a source of empirical evidence unless it concerns a direct observation and doesn't -contradict- that observation.

That's Vegeta. Gokuu is not an arrogant person who overestimates himself, like I said. He's been shown to be much more honest and reasonable about these matters.

James R. Cadwell wrote:That's kinda because he -couldn't- fight back until he had a moment to recover from Vegeta's relentless blows -- Vegeta was dominating the beginning of that battle because "Fat" Buu was either too slow or too stunned to react.

Perhaps this is a matter of interpretation, because to me, it seemed like Buu was just kind of standing there.

James R. Cadwell wrote:Vegeta was able to land a number of hits on "Kid" Buu and they did have an effect (however slight) -- which didn't happen when Vegeta attacked the enhanced version of Perfect Cell.

In looking through the manga version of the entire fight, Vegeta never physically hit him. A few blasts connected, but those had no effect.

Kanzenshuu

Thoughts on Super Saiya-jin power-ups

Thoughts on Super Saiya-jin power-ups

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