SSJ Gotenks Pre Rosat vs SSJ Goku

[p123]

Now obviously that is a no brainer. But IMO, it brings up a different approach to dealing with Gotenks vs Goku... Hopefully Kaboom doesn't go apeshit that this will hurt his opinion on nerfing Gotenks and will keep it up for us to enjoy the debate....


Here's my logic...If we go by SEG numbers, which many people seem to not have a problem with using guides, so I would think people would be alright with that... Considering that SSJ Gotenks standing around seems to have ample enough power for Fat Buu, meanwhile, SSJ3 Goku would have to go all out to beat him, and not to mention that Goku did say Gotenks would be stronger. Even if you could say that's a lie or something, it was said, and perhaps AT just forgot or something, either way it's all enough evidence that SSJ Gotenks Pre Rosat should at least rival SSJ3 Goku...


Now.. When we look at SSJ Gotenks vs SSJ Goku, it's quite easy to see the large gap between the two....


SSJ3 Goku > Fat Buu > Evil Buu > Good Buu > SSJ2 Majin Vegeta = SSJ2 Goku > SSJ2 Kid Gohan > SSJ2 Pre Majin Vegeta > SSJ2 Teen Gohan > Perfect Cell > SSJ Goku = SSJ Majin Vegeta



If you believe all boosts are the same for each fighter, then this is what you would come up with... Look at the gap between SSJ Goku and SSJ3 Goku. It's tremendous , obviously...


Going by the SEG, SSJ2 is a 2x boost and SSJ3 is a 4x boost. I have no problem with this, although some may, but either way the boost is huge. Let's just use the SEG for now...


If....


SSJ Gotenks 40
SSJ3 Goku 40
SSJ2 Goku 10
SSJ Goku 5



As we can see, SSJ Gotenks vs SSJ Goku would be a difference of 8x and using these numbers a 40 to 5 . Now that is a huge gap....


So as poorly written as all of this is, doesn't something just hit you and perhaps make one think that maybe, just maybe, SSJ Gotenks should be stronger than SSJ Goku by the same amount SSJ3 Gotenks is over SSJ3 Goku... Wouldn't that be the simplest approach?


SSJ3 Gotenks 320
SSJ2 Gotenks 80
SSJ Gotenks 40
SSJ3 Goku 40
SSJ2 Goku 10
SSJ Goku 5


Wouldn't this be the simplest approach? I mean how can we accept SSJ Gotenks monstrous dominance over SSJ Goku, but not SSJ3 Gotenks over SSJ3 Goku? Because we don't want SSJ3 Goku to be nothing? I mean if that isn't blatant fanboyism I don't know what is...


Now this is only Pre Rosat Gotenks, Post Rosat Gotenks could even dwarf a hypothetical SSJ3 Pre Rosat Gotenks, so we are not even going to go there yet. Baby steps... But still, is this really all that crazy?


I don't think AT sits there with a calculator and figures everything out. That's what varying boosts are about essentially, which makes little sense. Realistically, AT probably thinks that if someone has an advantage in base over another fighter, he would have the same advantage in all forms. No numerics involved, but if Fighter A is stronger than Fighter B , and they are both saiyans and have transformations, there should be no need to specify which form is stronger than the others, Fighter A > Fighter B, should suffice for all forms...

Anyway, Kaboom don't close this please, would really like to hear the responses on this.

[VegettoEX]

Hopefully Kaboom doesn't go apeshit that this will hurt his opinion on nerfing Gotenks and will keep it up for us to enjoy the debate....

If you can't even start a conversation politely, then as the administrator of this forum I am simply not going to allow you to continue conversing at all. This is unacceptable...

... and proves every point I've ever made about discussions comparing powers/strengths and the people that do them. Why prove the stereotype?

[p123]

I don't know. I have had trouble bringing up with certain topics me and Kaboom disagree with heavily, not neccesarily saying it's a prejudiced thing, but found it odd, and was hoping that full disclosure would prevent that sort of thing happening...

[lash]

So as poorly written as all of this is, doesn't something just hit you and perhaps make one think that maybe, just maybe, SSJ Gotenks should be stronger than SSJ Goku by the same amount SSJ3 Gotenks is over SSJ3 Goku... Wouldn't that be the simplest approach?

Toriyama also wasn't siting there with a calculator in his hand calculating power levels as he wrote the latter series.

As long as it agrees with the story as in... SSJ3 Gotenks = Super Buu > SSJ3 Goku and SSJ Gotenks >(heavy implication) SSJ1or2 Goku ...trying to calculate and compare the specific difference between the two comparisons is already trekking "fanboyism" territory. The "simplest approach" would be to just accept B is greater than A without having to compare the exact difference or putting it into numbers. You can't hold the idea of fan made varying boosts to the neck when you're not doing the "simplest approach" yourself.

Anyway, as I've said before: The Daizenshuu states SSJ3 draws out the hidden power of a saiyan to its absolute limits. Obviously limits vary for everyone. In other words I feel a SSJ3 Goku is going to be different in power than a SSJ3 Gohan, even if they had the same base strength level. That's the same attitude I attribute to Gotenks. Meaning on my little fan made PoWa level list I can be as flexible as I want. I only consider varying boosts for the final Super Saiyan transformation...SSJ3 and not other transformations. As far as I'm concerned FPSSj/ SSJ is a fixed 50x multiplier that wouldn't have an incentive to change or vary for another person.

[p123]

I think your wrong. Varying boosts calls for calculations...

If SSJ Gotenks is ridicolously more powerful than SSJ Goku, SSJ3 Gotenks should be ridicolously more powerful than SSJ3 Goku. Basically by the same measure.

That my friend is Occam's razor ( if you spell it that way lol ) , that is the simplest approach. Varying boosts is complicated and requires complication..

[Rostir]

What is Rosat?

[Kaboom]

What is Rosat?

It stands for the Room of Spirit and Time.

[VegettoEX]

What is Rosat?

The Room of Spirit and Time, the special room within the palace up at Kami's/God's where one day on the outside is an entire year on the inside.

[buffninja91]

I kind of agree with the idea of the varying boosts for ssj3... It's true that to a certain level Gotenks should hold a consistent lead over Goku, but I do think things like age, potential, ki manipulation ablility and level, all might be able to affect the transformation in a way that Goku may get a bigger boost from it than Gotenks, thus shortening the original gap. Not to say Goku would be able to whoop up on Bootenks or even ssj3 Gotenks or anything...

[lash]

I think your wrong. Varying boosts calls for calculations...

If SSJ Gotenks is ridicolously more powerful than SSJ Goku, SSJ3 Gotenks should be ridicolously more powerful than SSJ3 Goku. Basically by the same measure.

That my friend is Occam's razor ( if you spell it that way lol ) , that is the simplest approach. Varying boosts is complicated and requires complication..

Unfortunately for you...that's not how Occam's razor works at all.

Furthermore, the simplest approach would be to simply accept SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku & SSJ Gotenks > SSJ Goku without any form of calculation (at least for this section of the series)...just as the author intended.

[p123]

Exactly what I mean... SSJ3 Gotenks should hold an advantage over SSJ3 Goku just the same as SSJ Gotenks holds an advantage over SSJ Goku. No need for calculation... That is the simplest approach...


If anyone deserves a bigger SSJ3 boost it would be Gotenks. He is a fusion, and reached SSJ3 with relative ease. Goku trained his whole life to get there, and he can't even do it right. Not to mention Goku is still new to the transformation, meanwhile Gotenks is coming up with all these crazy attacks and stuff and quite comfortable with SSJ3 showing nowhere near the strain Goku did.



So if you want to play that game , then Fusions should get bigger transformation boosts than non fusions, if anyone is going to get the bigger boost..

[Brohan]

I always took the "bringing out full potential" thing on SSJ3 as it being the strongest transformation available to a Saiyan(save magical means)

[p123]

So SSJ3 is a bigger boost than SSJ your saying? And even so, Gotenks should have far more potential than Goku. I mean SSJ Gotenks is already on SSJ3 Goku's level... Gotenks SSJ3 should be far stronger potential wise than Goku's based on that alone...Hell I think the individual kids have more potential than Goku, when they fuse together it's not even close...

[jackjack]

Anyway, as I've said before: The Daizenshuu states SSJ3 draws out the hidden power of a saiyan to its absolute limits.

lol didn't you say the Saiyans' powers werer bottomless?

[Kaboom]

"Current limits" are a different beast than "eternal, lifelong limits."

The former is what everyone ends up surpassing one way or another multiple times in the series. They're what the Grand Elder's powerup brought Gohan and Kuririn to, what the Old Kaioshin's ritual brought Gohan past, and by lash's intriguing idea, is what Super Saiyan 3 brings Goku and Gotenks to.

The latter is a more vague concept, which has never been seen in Dragon Ball and, the way things work, even death itself cannot bring you to.

That's how I see it, anyway.

[lash]

Exactly what I mean... SSJ3 Gotenks should hold an advantage over SSJ3 Goku just the same as SSJ Gotenks holds an advantage over SSJ Goku. No need for calculation... That is the simplest approach...

If anyone deserves a bigger SSJ3 boost it would be Gotenks. He is a fusion, and reached SSJ3 with relative ease. Goku trained his whole life to get there, and he can't even do it right. Not to mention Goku is still new to the transformation, meanwhile Gotenks is coming up with all these crazy attacks and stuff and quite comfortable with SSJ3 showing nowhere near the strain Goku did.

So if you want to play that game, then Fusions should get bigger transformation boosts than non fusions, if anyone is going to get the bigger boost..

You can't make a "simplest approach" claim with such an insane lack of information. The simplest approach is SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku and SSJ Gotenks > SSJ Goku and that's all. There's no: Oh, they should have equal advantage, or anything. You have absolutely no clue how fusion works for one. An official guidebook already tells us SSJ3 is dependent on how much hidden power is in the user while being the final and ultimate level of SSJ. It's not Oozaru or SSJ that grants a fixed multiplier. In other words, it's already made out that SSJ3 is going to be different for Gotenks than it is Goku.


You still don't seem to be understanding the idea.

The strongest form of Super Saiyan, which draws the hidden power of a Saiyan out to its limits.

The actual size of the boost is irrelevant for how SSJ3 draws out the "current" limit of a Saiyan. If Gotenks is getting a smaller boost but is still a good degree stronger, it simply means his Base/SSJ1/SSJ2 power is already extremely close to its current limits and has little hidden power because most of his "hidden power" is already shown. And since Fusion is so unexplainably incredibly strong, I have no issues with thinking it has the attribute of drawing a large chuck of their hidden power out already without even being in SSJ3.

Anyway, as I've said before: The Daizenshuu states SSJ3 draws out the hidden power of a saiyan to its absolute limits.

lol didn't you say the Saiyans' powers werer bottomless?

I did. I said they have bottomless potential in the sense that when given the "X" required methods, the "X" required time, and the "X" required willpower...they CAN break past their (what I like to call) "current" limits. A rinse and repeat of this method grants them bottomless potential.

At any one given moment in time they have a wall. You obviously have to have a wall before you can break through a wall...
So again... they are bottomless in the sense that with the right conditions met as I stated, they CAN break their wall over and over again just as they have done all throughout the series.

"Current limits" are a different beast than "eternal, lifelong limits."

The former is what everyone ends up surpassing one way or another multiple times in the series. They're what the Grand Elder's powerup brought Gohan and Kuririn to, what the Old Kaioshin's ritual brought Gohan past, and by lash's intriguing idea, is what Super Saiyan 3 brings Goku and Gotenks to.

The latter is a more vague concept, which has never been seen in Dragon Ball and, the way things work, even death itself cannot bring you to.

That's how I see it, anyway.

You're a smart man Kaboom.

[mister yummy]

As much as I hate turning power into a math problem, I'm going there for this thread. Here's the inequation for every major Buu Saga character. Feel free to disagree, and please point out any errors here.

Kurillin < Pui Pui < Yakon < Gohan < Vegita < Dead Goku < Piccolo < SSJ Gohan < Dabura < SSJ Vegita < SSJ Dead Goku < SSJ2 Gohan < SSJ2 Vegita(chibi Buu fight) < Mr. Buu < Evil Skinny Buu < Chibi Buu < Gotenks < SSJ2 Majin Vegita = SSJ2 Dead Goku < Fat Majin Buu < SSJ Gotenks < SSJ3 Dead Goku ≤ SSJ Gotenks Post-ROSAT < SSJ3 Gotenks = Full Power SSJ3 Goku(kid Buu fight. He never got there) ≤ Super Buu < Super Buu + Piccolo-tatchi < "Mystic" Gohan < Super Buu + Gotenks-tatchi < Super Buu + Gohan-tatchi < Buff Buu < Vegito < SSJ Vegito < SSJ2 Vegito

Well, that was long winded and inane. I suppose I could put some more characters on there if I really tried.

[jackjack]

Then you should've said "SSJ3 draws out the hidden power of a saiyan to its current limits," lash.

[Darkprince410]

As much as I hate turning power into a math problem, I'm going there for this thread. Here's the inequation for every major Buu Saga character. Feel free to disagree, and please point out any errors here.
Super Buu + Gohan-tatchi < Buff Buu < Vegito < SSJ Vegito

Well, that was long winded and inane. I suppose I could put some more characters on there if I really tried.

I disagree with two of the points in the remaining part of your battle power flow that I have above. For starters, there's nothing actually indicating that "Buff" Buu was anywhere near as powerful as you have him. All that we see is that he's more powerful than the base Super Buu, but there's no dialogue suggesting that he's the strongest form of Buu whatsoever.

Secondly, and I'm sure there are some that disagree with it, but I don't believe that Vegetto's base form was stronger than Gohan Buu, since while he's shown fighting very well against Gohan Buu during a filler episode of the anime, in the manga we see him transform into a Super Saiya-jin almost immediately after Goku and Vegeta fuse together. To me, this indicates that Vegetto knew that even with the power of the fusion, his base form wouldn't be enough, but that his Ssj form would be.

[Nazi Cola]

As much as I hate turning power into a math problem, I'm going there for this thread. Here's the inequation for every major Buu Saga character. Feel free to disagree, and please point out any errors here.

Kurillin < Pui Pui < Yakon < Gohan < Vegita < Dead Goku < Piccolo < SSJ Gohan < Dabura < SSJ Vegita < SSJ Dead Goku < SSJ2 Gohan < SSJ2 Vegita(chibi Buu fight) < Mr. Buu < Evil Skinny Buu < Chibi Buu < Gotenks < SSJ2 Majin Vegita = SSJ2 Dead Goku < Fat Majin Buu < SSJ Gotenks < SSJ3 Dead Goku ≤ SSJ Gotenks Post-ROSAT < SSJ3 Gotenks = Full Power SSJ3 Goku(kid Buu fight. He never got there) ≤ Super Buu < Super Buu + Piccolo-tatchi < "Mystic" Gohan < Super Buu + Gotenks-tatchi < Super Buu + Gohan-tatchi < Buff Buu < Vegito < SSJ Vegito < SSJ2 Vegito

Well, that was long winded and inane. I suppose I could put some more characters on there if I really tried.

I really don't see how being dead gives Goku that much more power.