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[Bussani]

Awful writing? They actually used #18 for once. and let's see here.. Son Goku got to use Super Dragon Fist.. Whats not to like? Toei invented it in the movies, why not use it for GT?

That doesn't make the writing good. It might be a good idea, but that's nothing to do with the execution of the writing itself. Most people even admit that GT had good ideas, but feel that the execution of them wasn't good.

Oh yeah that's right, Akira Toriyama didn't think of it.. Like it HAS to be made from HIM to make sense.

I'm sick of seeing this excuse. GT's bad points wouldn't suddenly become good if it turned out Toriyama had been in charge of them. And I don't think anyone's saying that Super Dragon Fist and 18 were the problems with the Super 17 saga...

It's all new concepts, give it a break and use some imagination.

If a show needs you to give it a break and use some imagination to be enjoyable, it must be doing something wrong.

To me, GT's writing is often bad because characters seem to be as strong, weak, quick-witted or stupid as the writers need them to be at any given moment. It's a lazy, half-assed way of writing that creates obstacles by having characters act out-of-character.

[AnimeMaakuo]

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[Gaffer Tape]

What "fair points" could there possibly be? This is subjective. It's all opinion. People are expressing in great, logical detail why they feel the way they do, and you just keep smacking them down because you don't agree with them. That's all that's happening here. If you don't agree, that's fine, but there's really no reason to say those points are invalid just because they're not your own.

[TonyTheTiger]

It won't stop sucking Goku's dick.

Tell me it isn't awful writing that makes zero sense in any department.

These two together describe exactly what I think is wrong with GT.

But you know what? I can deal with Goku being the overwhelming focus. I've done it through most of the rest of the series. And you know what else? I can even deal with plots that don't make sense. I came from the Saturday morning cartoon camp, the Disney afternoon camp, and I've developed a huge tolerance for "turn off your brain" entertainment, which still entertains me to this day.

The real problem with GT? It's frustrating. It's very, very frustrating. It presents you with plot points that effectively go nowhere. Super Saiyan 4 fails more than it succeeds. And, what's worse, it teases you with story potential that's never explored. Some of the best parts of GT are the few moments we get of the supporting cast interacting with each other. Vegeta and Bra, Goten and his young adult escapades, Gohan as a father, and whatever Piccolo was up to. Perfect example, we get to see Vegeta confront Nappa who's justifiably miffed. And what's the payoff? A mindless yell and a quick kaboom.

It gives us all these hints that there are all these interesting threads ready to be explored and then just as quickly yanks it away like one of those dollar bills on a fishing line. And the worst part? The show seems to know that it's doing just that and gleefully takes joy in it, going so far as to suggest that we'd get to see an adult Gotenks...only for Goku to squash the idea for pretty much no reason at all. GT is the worst cocktease since the captain of the cheerleading squad.

[Necrosaber]

I don't hate GT at all. In fact, I really like it and consider it cannon despite all its flaws.

There are some weird things about the series, I must admit. Me and my girlfriend are rewatching it together, and a lot of times I'll find myself yelling at the TV "Goku, what are you doing? Just turn SSJ3 are end this crap". He'll stay in base form and mess around for no reason.

The "hate" on this site is pretty tame compared to what I see on youtube or other sites, which most of the time, is completely nonsensical. I see people complaining about Vegeta having a mustache and screaming "Saiyans hair doesn't change since they're born, he can't have a mustache, PLOT HOLE GT SUCKS". I say to myself "Yea, I suppose King Vegeta or Nappa were born with full goatees and nut hair too, right?". Just silly stuff.

I wish they had expanded on certain things, too. I thought Ledgic was a cool adversary and would've liked to see a bit of a rivalry thing going on with Goku. I wish Uub developed his powers more and became more of note-worthy fighter considering he's the reincarnation of Buu. I also really love the mystery of the ending. Everything just felt complete to me after that as I didn't really care for Z's ending.

But yea, I don't hate the series. It vexes me that I run into people who run around saying how stupid GT is, then go on how DB Online and Tarble are just sooooo brillant. All I can do is roll my eyes and carry on.

[Cipher]

- At the end of GT everybody else is just so weak and useless and incapable of defending the earth that Goku decides to become some immortal god. Not really a satisfying ending.. It's funny in a bad way when you consider how the Cell arc ended.

GT's ending is actually exactly in line with the way the Cell arc ended, to an even greater degree. Unless we were watching two completely different shows, both Goku and the Dragon Balls are removed. Shen-Long tells the characters directly they can't keep relying on deus ex machinas like wishes. Goku very purposely revives everyone but does not ask that the damage be undone. ("I'd like everyone to fix this together," or something to that effect.) Trunks gives a speech to Pan about not relying on the Dragon Balls. Goku apologizes to Piccolo and tries to lift Krillin's spirits, then vanishes (being a presumably immortal god is irrelevant here; he's gone as a protector and fighter).

It's basically the torch-passing/"Hey guys, get your own shit together" moment that the series had been teasing since the end of the Cell Games.

Second, I didn't like Vegeta's 180. He went right back to wanting to beat Kakarott even though he'd already had his character development and (Supposedly) given up on that.

Wait, the same Vegeta who suggests Goku's son go into space for more training? The same one who says he doesn't care about beating Kakarott, but only wants to know what his own limits are? The same one who immediately says neither he nor Goku can defeat Yi Xing-Long, suggesting fusion before he even tries out Super Saiyan 4?

The same Vegeta who, when Goku says, "Aren't we the last warriors of the proud Saiyan race?" responds with "That tired line again?"

That Vegeta? His character development went where?

Truthfully, it's been a WHILE since I've seen GT. I may check it out again just for kicks. I find expectations go a long way to how well I think of something. Going into it back in the day expecting it to top Z probably factored into my feelings for it. Going back into it again now with my expectations set as low as they can be, I might get some more enjoyment out of it this time.

Give it a go. Seriously. I will say this, and of course it's completely anecdotal, but most of the extreme dislike for GT I see comes from people who were admittedly aware of the stigma before watching it, or who admit to not even seeing or remembering all of it. Conversely, I've seen more than a few written accounts by now of people going into GT for the very first time without stigma, and as far as I remember all or most of them have been pleasantly surprised. I really defy anyone to sit down and not at least be entertained by it, unless they're all hyped up by the fandom to hate it beforehand.

But yea, I don't hate the series. It vexes me that I run into people who run around saying how stupid GT is, then go on how DB Online and Tarble are just sooooo brillant. All I can do is roll my eyes and carry on.

I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but yeah. There are cases like this where I can only assume the "Toriyama effect" is in full swing. Everything he had a part in is golden, every he didn't is crap. Of course, these same fans will sit down and eat up all the movies, and blow a gasket if you tell them he designed Vegeta's mustache. Thankfully they don't seem to be (extremely) prevalent on Daizex.

[AnimeMaakuo]

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[p123]

GT's ending, and the mechanical mutants segments are the only things that even make GT watchable. The Dragon concept was pretty good as well, but just done poorly... Super 17 was horrible...

[Taku128]

It's really funny to see people answer one out of the few questions I've listed. Most of you guys seem to hate GT because of a nostalgic reason, simply because you don't like to see the characters growing old and being useless. If you continued Z, it would be another powerful villain taking over the Earth.. It would begin to get boring.. The Buu saga was pushing it.

And that's exactly why it ended. At some point the creators of a series have to realize there aren't any more meaningful stories to be told, and Toriyama had realized this for a long time. Toei, however, chose to continue on their own, and the stories they told weren't interesting and added nothing. Outside of the ending to the series can you name one meaningful thing that happened in GT? I sure as hell can't. GT was a waste of time, and Toei should have let the series end where the creator did.

[AnimeMaakuo]

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[Rocketman]

Outside of the ending to the series can you name one meaningful thing that happened in GT?

The one thing I really did like was Elder Kai's warning about overusing the Dragonballs coming true.

[sbk]

The Short Version: you can hate the finale of the Boo arc for a lot of reasons, but "Nobody but Goku got to have an active role against the opponent" is blatantly wrong.

I know the original Dragonball focuses 100% on Goku, I don't mind that cause Goku was still growing, still developing. I was only talking about the Z portion though, Piccolo Daimao and RR Army don't fall under that.
I mean active role as in trying to beat Kid Buu themselves instead of bowing down to Goku, being merely batteries to his Spirit Bomb or merely stalling for time for Goku's Spirit Bomb. Too much Goku wank to me.. That's why i disliked it.. and GT.
But you're right, I stand corrected

And that's exactly why it ended. At some point the creators of a series have to realize there aren't any more meaningful stories to be told, and Toriyama had realized this for a long time. Toei, however, chose to continue on their own, and the stories they told weren't interesting and added nothing. Outside of the ending to the series can you name one meaningful thing that happened in GT? I sure as hell can't. GT was a waste of time, and Toei should have let the series end where the creator did.

This!

[Deadlyillness]

Consider all the plotholes...

[Vagrant]

I recently tried to rewatch GT, and I didn't even make it to Rildo before giving up because it was just so godawful stupid. Even in the early episodes its highly schizophrenic about whether it wants to be more like Dragon Ball or Dragon Ball Z, and the worst part is that the result is boring and unspirited. It feels exactly like what it is, a lame grab at more cash by a company trying to squeeze more life out of a franchise that's run dry.

Fact is, Goku can't decide whether being in a child's body means he should act like a kid again, or act exactly like he was in the end of DBZ. He can't seem to decide how strong he is, nor how quick-witted or attentive he is, and Pan and Trunks are just his lackeys at best. And highly annoying ones at that.

Furthermore is the power creep. Am I honestly supposed to believe that Rildo is as strong as Majin Boo? Boo, the terror that the Kaioshin have been fearing for millions of years, and this guy has over the last few years becomes as strong as him and nobody thinks this is an issue? It's bad enough that Base Goku looks like he's about as strong as Oob, who seems to be at his full Majin strength. By the end of the whole thing Goku's running around with this Super Saiyajin 4 form (another thing I have issues with, don't call it a Super Saiyajin form, make it more interesting) and is thousands to perhaps tens of thousands times as strong as he was at the end of Z. Silly. How about instead of putting them in a situation where MOAR POWAH is needed, you stick them in a situation where thinking and teamwork is needed against a tricky foe? Nope, instead we get Kamehameha TIMES TEN. WHOA! What amazing power, pretty cool guys, amirite?

It's not all terrible though. There were some good ideas to GT. I like the idea of a corrupted Godly Dragon. I really like it. I like the idea of a parasitic entity turning friends against each other. I like the idea of expanding on the history of the Saiyajin through the Tsufurjin. Hell, I can even get behind the idea of a Hell break out and a beefed up android. Problem is, out of those 5 ideas for main villains, 3 and a half have been done previously with Plan to Eradicate the Saiyajin, Fusion Reborn, Super Android 13 and the Black Water Mist/Captain Ginyu. The only fully original idea turns out pretty horribly because of poor execution sadly. Most of the ideas had potential but were completely wasted in the rush for cash. The idea I did really like was right at the end, when Goku leaves with the Godly Dragon.

Answer: Son Goku remembering who he was, soon to become what is known as "ssj4." Later defending for the good cause that we all have known Son Goku to do.

So exactly the same thing as in Z? Rinse, repeat, rehash and serve with a garnish of plastic bobble heads? Also, protip: SSj4 was in no way meaningful. It's just another in the long line of Super Saiyajin forms. I'd had enough of them by the time we hit third form, let alone this fourth one. Golden Great Ape, I liked. The concept of combining Great Ape and Super Saiyajin into a compressed primal form was great. The execution was beyond painful.

[Zephyr]

Outside of the ending to the series can you name one meaningful thing that happened in GT? I sure as hell can't. GT was a waste of time, and Toei should have let the series end where the creator did.

Old enemies of the Saiyans coming back to bite the heroes in the ass.
Combination of the SSJ and Oozaru forms.
Bad shit happening because of overuse of the Dragonballs.

[Taku128]

Answer: Son Goku remembering who he was, soon to become what is known as "ssj4." Later defending for the good cause that we all have known Son Goku to do.

So exactly the same thing as in Z? Rinse, repeat, rehash and serve with a garnish of plastic bobble heads? Also, protip: SSj4 was in no way meaningful. It's just another in the long line of Super Saiyajin forms. I'd had enough of them by the time we hit third form, let alone this fourth one. Golden Great Ape, I liked. The concept of combining Great Ape and Super Saiyajin into a compressed primal form was great. The execution was beyond painful.

This is basically what I was going to say but you beat me to the punch. Goku's been "defending for the good cause" since the original Dragon Ball, and all Super Saiyan 4 is is a glorified redesign. Nothing about what you said is significant in any way. If you took out the 4 someone would assume you were talking about DBZ, because that's all GT is. More Dragon Ball Z.

Outside of the ending to the series can you name one meaningful thing that happened in GT? I sure as hell can't. GT was a waste of time, and Toei should have let the series end where the creator did.

Old enemies of the Saiyans coming back to bite the heroes in the ass.
Combination of the SSJ and Oozaru forms.
Bad shit happening because of overuse of the Dragonballs.

These have a bit more significance to them, but still aren't much. The Tsufurians trying to get revenge against the Saiyans is recycled from Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans, and there's no actual weight behind the plot. A Tsufurian is mad at the Saiyans for what they did, but Goku and Vegeta had nothing to do with what happened to Baby's race. Revenge stories only have any weight to them when the person seeking revenge takes out his frustrations on someone who was actually responsible for their troubles, or at least was involved in the situation somehow. This puts weight behind the person's grudge, because the characters are in some way responsible for the person's grudge, no matter how small their involvement or twisted the reasoning may be. Without anything actually linking Goku and Vegeta to the destruction of the Tsufurians Baby's grudge holds less weight than Scorpion's grudge against the original Sub-Zero, and that's from a flippin' fighting vidjuh game!

Transformations are in no way significant on their own. When Goku transformed on Namek or Gohan transformed at the Cell Games there was significance to the transformation not because of the transformation itself, but the context surrounding the transformation and what it brought to the situation. Goku fulfills the prophecy of the Legendary Super Saiyan that Freeza was so afraid of, and Gohan finally steps into his role as Goku's successor as defender of the Earth. The Golden Ape and Super Saiyan 4 are no more significant than Super Saiyan 3. (Super Saiyan 3 isn't significant)

The Dragon Balls having consequences is the one thing that could have weight to it, but it has no weight outside of the ending, which I already mentioned as being the only significant part of GT. Sure the Dragon Balls can't be used anymore, but then the series ends. Outside of the Dragon Balls no longer working the only "ramifications" to all the wishes was that there were seven new dudes for Goku to beat up, and then Goku beat up the seven dudes. Then Goku becomes a god or some shit, and the ramifications of the Dragon Balls disappearing are never seen because the series jumps forwards 100 years, and then in the TV Special the Dragon Balls are still around anyways! The only thing that actually happens in the ending of GT is everyone is dead because they lived a fulfilling life and died of old age (which was the eventual conclusion to the events after Z's ending anyways), and that Goku is now some kind of God, meaning he doesn't have to have a successor, making it a step back from Z's ending where Oob was being set up as becoming Earth's new protector. Either that or Goku Jr would become the new hero, which makes it no more significant than the ending to Z. At best GT is entirely superfluous, and at worst GT bastardizes Z's ending. Take your pick of which you'd like to believe.

[GamingBuddha]

Am I honestly supposed to believe that Rildo is as strong as Majin Boo? Boo, the terror that the Kaioshin have been fearing for millions of years, and this guy has over the last few years becomes as strong as him and nobody thinks this is an issue?

Am I honestly supposed to believe that Cell is as strong as Freeza? Freeza, the terror that the Kaio have been fearing for hundreds of years, and this guy has over the last few years become as strong as him and nobody thinks this is an issue?

It bugs me when people criticize GT for things that are present in the rest of the series. But anyways, I think the main reason to hate on GT is its rushed feel. After watching Z, you get used to these long, epic fights, and then GT comes along and has a Shadow Dragon killed every episode. If it was paced a little better, people would probably bag on it less.

Also I'm one of the people that actually likes that Goku gets all the action because it makes sense. After fifteen years of regular life, everyone else isn't going to be at Goku's level when he's been training with Uub.

[Rocketman]

It bugs me when people criticize GT for things that are present in the rest of the series.

That's why they're problems with GT. We've seen it all before, and stacking it on top of the rest of things like it just becomes silly.

[Zephyr]

Excellent rebuttal.

That's exactly why they're good as concepts, but were used poorly. Granted, I'll admit that I'm not a storytelling genius myself, and would not be able to come up with something better, but had the series been planned out better these things could have actually held more significance.

It bugs me when people criticize GT for things that are present in the rest of the series.

A sequel series making the same mistakes as its predecessor, as opposed to learning from them, is not a thing to be excused.

[Vagrant]

Am I honestly supposed to believe that Rildo is as strong as Majin Boo? Boo, the terror that the Kaioshin have been fearing for millions of years, and this guy has over the last few years becomes as strong as him and nobody thinks this is an issue?

Am I honestly supposed to believe that Cell is as strong as Freeza? Freeza, the terror that the Kaio have been fearing for hundreds of years, and this guy has over the last few years become as strong as him and nobody thinks this is an issue?

What's this? Cell has the genetic composition of Freeza contained within him and thus all the potential power of the beast? Combined with Saiyan genes that grow at a tremendous rate and also paired with absorptions that boost his power tremendously, as they're designed to? Well, look at that, Cell makes sense to be that strong.

Boo was made out to be the ultimate plateau of villainous power at a godly Otherworldly level. There's no reason a schumuck should come along and push past that in a few years, without anyone in the higher-ups noticing or caring.