Super Earthling

[dbgtFO]

I don't have proof. But you have no proof that Tenshinhan's reflexes are comparable to Goku's, simply based on them dodging a blast that wasn't even aimed at them. And besides, how would Tenshinhan suddenly boost up to base Saiyans' level? And don't call "plot convenience", because there's nothing in the plot that would require Tenshinhan to be anywhere near that strong.

It is plot convenience, since Dr. Gero found Earthling power useful.
And Shin Kikoho.

Obviously, Vegeta's reflexes are sharper than Piccolo's. He saw Freeza's blast coming towards Gohan on top of a mountain and kicked him out of the way. But I don't think you should take Tenshinhan dodging a blast that wasn't aimed at him and may have been suppressed as evidence that Tenshinhan's reflexes are comparable to Goku's.

So in the first case, it's obvious that a character, who managed to react to an attack not aimed at him has sharper reflexes than all the others, since they didn't react to it, while in the other case an attack not stated to be slower than normally and not aimed at the character in question, but still reacted to almost as quickly, as the main character does not mean anything...

[Fox666]

It is plot convenience, since Dr. Gero found Earthling power useful.

I always provided explanations for...
- The absorption device might not result in a power identical to that of the absorbeb person
- Dr. Gero commit a mistake (among many others) and underestimated Vegeta

Besides, even if Tenshinhan & Co had battle powers of 30 million each, if would be absolutely useless against Super Saiyan Vegeta!! So Dr. Gero statement doesn't serve as evidence to measure the earthlings power

[Piccolo Daimao]

I don't have proof. But you have no proof that Tenshinhan's reflexes are comparable to Goku's, simply based on them dodging a blast that wasn't even aimed at them. And besides, how would Tenshinhan suddenly boost up to base Saiyans' level? And don't call "plot convenience", because there's nothing in the plot that would require Tenshinhan to be anywhere near that strong.

It is plot convenience, since Dr. Gero found Earthling power useful.
And Shin Kikoho.

Read what Fox666 said. And the Shin Kikoho means nothing. Toriyama didn't see it as a means to explain how strong Tenshinhan had gotten. The Shin Kikoho was just a means to stall second-form Cell. The Kikoho is an amplifying technique that uses up all the user's ki. It's stronger than Tenshinhan himself. He can only output that level of power using the Shin Kikoho.

Obviously, Vegeta's reflexes are sharper than Piccolo's. He saw Freeza's blast coming towards Gohan on top of a mountain and kicked him out of the way. But I don't think you should take Tenshinhan dodging a blast that wasn't aimed at him and may have been suppressed as evidence that Tenshinhan's reflexes are comparable to Goku's.

So in the first case, it's obvious that a character, who managed to react to an attack not aimed at him has sharper reflexes than all the others, since they didn't react to it, while in the other case an attack not stated to be slower than normally and not aimed at the character in question, but still reacted to almost as quickly, as the main character does not mean anything...

I don't have anything to counter with here. But a minor thing like this that didn't have an impact on the rest of the story, unlike with Vegeta kicking Gohan out of the way of a blast the others reacted late to, shouldn't be used as a means to gauge Tenshinhan's strength. (Btw, Tenshinhan dodged a beam. Vegeta didn't.) I've already explained above that I don't believe Tenshinhan would suddenly boost up to Goku's level and it wasn't plot convenience.

[Titan]

The suggestion that Tenshinhan's reflexes are comparable to Goku's based on dodging an attack that wasn't even aimed at him...but regardless "the aiming part" Tenshinhan still was in the way which means he was forced to dodge by himself.
I find this argument very solid.

[dbgtFO]

It is plot convenience, since Dr. Gero found Earthling power useful.

I always provided explanations for...
- The absorption device might not result in a power identical to that of the absorbeb person
- Dr. Gero commit a mistake (among many others) and underestimated Vegeta

Besides, even if Tenshinhan & Co had battle powers of 30 million each, if would be absolutely useless against Super Saiyan Vegeta!! So Dr. Gero statement doesn't serve as evidence to measure the earthlings power

So here I'll just post all the relevant quotes, for anyone to pick apart, if needed:

Chapter: 345 (DBZ 151), P14.7
“If I collect their energy and add it to my own, I’ll be able to win against Vegeta!”

They absorb their opponents' energy through the device in their palms. Aside from directly grabbing onto their opponents' body, they also absorb ki blasts.
[image]By sucking up large quantities of energy, their maximum level raises. They can then change that into attack power.

http://www.kanzentai.com/trans-daiz02.p ... ttack#link

His type absorbs energy through his hands, and change his battle power based on the size of the energy he absorbs

http://www.kanzentai.com/trans-daiz04.p ... =tech#link

They suck up their opponent's ki through the lens-shaped energy absorption devices inserted in the palms of their hands, then convert it into their own energy. This also absorbs ki manipulation techniques.

http://www.kanzentai.com/trans-daiz07.p ... absorption
Interpretations/explanations?

Read what Fox666 said. And the Shin Kikoho means nothing. Toriyama didn't see it as a means to explain how strong Tenshinhan had gotten. The Shin Kikoho was just a means to stall second-form Cell. The Kikoho is an amplifying technique that uses up all the user's ki. It's stronger than Tenshinhan himself. He can only output that level of power using the Shin Kikoho.

Sure, but since when has anyone ever amplified their ki over 20 times?
Even back in the Saiyan Arc, if there really was an amplifier present it certainly wasn't anywhere near 2 times, since Gohan's masenko probably was the strongest ki before Goku arrived.
I just don't see a 10.000 times amplifier being present or anything. It's just beyond ridiculous.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Read what Fox666 said. And the Shin Kikoho means nothing. Toriyama didn't see it as a means to explain how strong Tenshinhan had gotten. The Shin Kikoho was just a means to stall second-form Cell. The Kikoho is an amplifying technique that uses up all the user's ki. It's stronger than Tenshinhan himself. He can only output that level of power using the Shin Kikoho.

Sure, but since when has anyone ever amplified their ki over 20 times?
Even back in the Saiyan Arc, if there really was an amplifier present it certainly wasn't anywhere near 2 times, since Gohan's masenko probably was the strongest ki before Goku arrived.
I just don't see a 10.000 times amplifier being present or anything. It's just beyond ridiculous.

The Shin Kikoho being strong enough to hold off second-form Cell is ridiculous in itself, so I find it easier to just accept that it's a technique that amplifies Tenshinhan's power by a ridiculous amount. I don't see why I should make Tenshinhan at base Saiyans' level of power. Especially when that makes no sense either.

[dbgtFO]

The Shin Kikoho being strong enough to hold off second-form Cell is ridiculous in itself, so I find it easier to just accept that it's a technique that amplifies Tenshinhan's power by a ridiculous amount. I don't see why I should make Tenshinhan at base Saiyans' level of power. Especially when that makes no sense either.

Okay, but..
What is it about Earthlings getting as/nearly as powerful as regular Saiyajins, that doesn't make sense?

[Piccolo Daimao]

The Shin Kikoho being strong enough to hold off second-form Cell is ridiculous in itself, so I find it easier to just accept that it's a technique that amplifies Tenshinhan's power by a ridiculous amount. I don't see why I should make Tenshinhan at base Saiyans' level of power. Especially when that makes no sense either.

Okay, but..
What is it about Earthlings getting as/nearly as powerful as regular Saiyajins, that doesn't make sense?

The Earthlings had been far below Goku ever since the 23rd Budokai. Goku without weights was too strong and fast for Tenshinhan that he whipped off his belt before he could react. After Kaio's training, Goku was slightly stronger than Nappa, the guy who knocked off Tenshinhan's arm, beat him to the ground and survived his Kikoho. Goku only furthered the gap with Zenkais from then on. I don't believe Tenshinhan suddenly shot up to base Saiyan level with Earth training and a sparring partner much weaker than him.

The Saiyans have pretty much always been ahead of the Earthlings.

[dbgtFO]

The Shin Kikoho being strong enough to hold off second-form Cell is ridiculous in itself, so I find it easier to just accept that it's a technique that amplifies Tenshinhan's power by a ridiculous amount. I don't see why I should make Tenshinhan at base Saiyans' level of power. Especially when that makes no sense either.

Okay, but..
What is it about Earthlings getting as/nearly as powerful as regular Saiyajins, that doesn't make sense?

The Earthlings had been far below Goku ever since the 23rd Budokai. Goku without weights was too strong and fast for Tenshinhan that he whipped off his belt before he could react. After Kaio's training, Goku was slightly stronger than Nappa, the guy who knocked off Tenshinhan's arm, beat him to the ground and survived his Kikoho. Goku only furthered the gap with Zenkais from then on. I don't believe Tenshinhan suddenly shot up to base Saiyan level with Earth training and a sparring partner much weaker than him.

The Saiyans have pretty much always been ahead of the Earthlings.

Okay, I can see where you're coming from.

[Fox666]

So here I'll just post all the relevant quotes, for anyone to pick apart, if needed:
(...)

It doesn't matter. As I said, mathematically speaking, if absorption means the sum of powers, even giving Tenshinhan & Co. a ridiculos battle power of 30 million each is completely useless against Super Vegeta!

So you must find an explanation for that: Absorption reveal the android true potential; Dr. Gero underestimated Vegeta; Another explanation - It doesn't matter, but you can see that Dr. Gero finding the earthlings energy doesn't work to prove Tenshinhan & Co. power.

Sure, but since when has anyone ever amplified their ki over 20 times?
Even back in the Saiyan Arc, if there really was an amplifier present it certainly wasn't anywhere near 2 times, since Gohan's masenko probably was the strongest ki before Goku arrived.
I just don't see a 10.000 times amplifier being present or anything. It's just beyond ridiculous.

But you doesn't find it also ridiculous to amplify the power by 100 times?

And the issue is that you are arguing that it's impossible for a baseball player to throw a ball in the sun, and that instead he might just hit the moon. Even if the lenght was lowered, it's still the same problem. And for that kind of fantasy, you might just accept that the baseball player hit the sun.

[dbgtFO]

So here I'll just post all the relevant quotes, for anyone to pick apart, if needed:
(...)

It doesn't matter. As I said, mathematically speaking, if absorption means the sum of powers, even giving Tenshinhan & Co. a ridiculos battle power of 30 million each is completely useless against Super Vegeta!So you must find an explanation for that: Absorption reveal the android true potential; Dr. Gero underestimated Vegeta; Another explanation - It doesn't matter, but you can see that Dr. Gero finding the earthlings energy doesn't work to prove Tenshinhan & Co. power.

If Tenshinhan, Krillin and Gohan each were at 30 million, that would add 90 million to Dr. Gero's own power. Dr. Gero can only be handled by SSJs and Piccolo, so he could probably be close to 50% Freeza or something like that, so 60 million plus 90 million gives him 150 million, which combined with Piccolo's battle power would indeed surpass Vegeta, if Vegeta wasn't far above 150 million.
So what's the problem there?

But you doesn't find it also ridiculous to amplify the power by 100 times?

Anything above 20 times is ridiculous in my opinion, the 10.000 was based on him only being at 100.000...
But I digress, there isn't any defined limit to that sort of thing AFAIK...

And the issue is that you are arguing that it's impossible for a baseball player to throw a ball in the sun, and that instead he might just hit the moon. Even if the lenght was lowered, it's still the same problem.

Now you've lost me.

[Godo]

And don't call "plot convenience", because there's nothing in the plot that would require Tenshinhan to be anywhere near that strong.

Sure there is...

Shin Kikoho!!!

[Piccolo Daimao]

And don't call "plot convenience", because there's nothing in the plot that would require Tenshinhan to be anywhere near that strong.

Sure there is...

Shin Kikoho!!!

Again, its existence in the story was only to hold off Cell enough time for #18 and #16 escape, so I doubt Toriyama was sitting there thinking about how strong he wanted to make Tenshinhan, even though his power wasn't noted or remotely relevant to the story. And besides, whatever way you twist it, the Shin Kikoho's still gonna amplify his power by a ridiculous amount. If Super Saiyan multiplies the user's power by 50, and the Shin Kikoho held back a guy stronger than Super Saiyans, then the Shin Kikoho would have a multiplier of over 50. Since that's all it is: a technique that amplifies the user's power, like the Kamehameha or the Makankosappo, only it's much more powerful. Tenshinhan wasn't required to be that strong, the Shin Kikoho was.

[Fox666]

So here I'll just post all the relevant quotes, for anyone to pick apart, if needed:
(...)

It doesn't matter. As I said, mathematically speaking, if absorption means the sum of powers, even giving Tenshinhan & Co. a ridiculos battle power of 30 million each is completely useless against Super Vegeta!So you must find an explanation for that: Absorption reveal the android true potential; Dr. Gero underestimated Vegeta; Another explanation - It doesn't matter, but you can see that Dr. Gero finding the earthlings energy doesn't work to prove Tenshinhan & Co. power.

If Tenshinhan, Krillin and Gohan each were at 30 million, that would add 90 million to Dr. Gero's own power. Dr. Gero can only be handled by SSJs and Piccolo, so he could probably be close to 50% Freeza or something like that, so 60 million plus 90 million gives him 150 million, which combined with Piccolo's battle power would indeed surpass Vegeta, if Vegeta wasn't far above 150 million.
So what's the problem there?

Does any fan put Tenshinhan & Co. at 30 million?

[Titan]

Regarding the OP question i would say a Super Earthling would be very cool.
Ten's alien ancestry would be a good excuse to give him a transformation.Herms suggested Majin Ozotto.

Cyborg implants! Infinite Energy generators for all and sundry! That's the way to empower the humans.

That would be great considering that they could master both ki sources and keep progressing in the power scale with Piccolo and the Saiyajins.

Does any fan put Tenshinhan & Co. at 30 million?

Does any fan put Tenshinhan & Co. at 20 thousand?

[Fox666]

How much you give to Yajirobe in the android saga?

[Piccolo Daimao]

Regarding the OP question i would say a Super Earthling would be very cool.
Ten's alien ancestry would be a good excuse to give him a transformation.Herms suggested Majin Ozotto.

If you believe it. I don't, because it just seems so random and left-field. As if having three eyes, growing two arms and splitting into four people automatically makes you an alien and is somehow so strange among the anthropomorphic animals, Kaio-Ken, Shunkan-Ido and Fusion. And the other annoying thing is that they just seem to give us this information just for the hell of it. With guidbeooks, it's nice to have in-depth information that we didn't get in the series, or just general tidbits on attacks. This just wasn't needed IMO. And what's more, they don't even give any extra information on the "Three-Eyed Tribe". They have a generic name and all we have on them is that Tenshinhan's descended from them and they have three eyes, Shiyo-ken and Shishin no Ken. Plus, aren't they completely missing the point of Tenshinhan's third eye? Isn't his third eye meant to signify enlightenment, and that his character is based on Er Lang Shen, the three-eyed man who fought and captured Sun Wukong?

You might as well make Chaozu a descendant of the Doll Vampires and Kuririn a descendant of the No-Nosed Clan if you're going to follow this logic.

[SilverPlaqueVII]

So here I'll just post all the relevant quotes, for anyone to pick apart, if needed:
(...)

It doesn't matter. As I said, mathematically speaking, if absorption means the sum of powers, even giving Tenshinhan & Co. a ridiculos battle power of 30 million each is completely useless against Super Vegeta!

So you must find an explanation for that: Absorption reveal the android true potential; Dr. Gero underestimated Vegeta; Another explanation - It doesn't matter, but you can see that Dr. Gero finding the earthlings energy doesn't work to prove Tenshinhan & Co. power.

Sure, but since when has anyone ever amplified their ki over 20 times?
Even back in the Saiyan Arc, if there really was an amplifier present it certainly wasn't anywhere near 2 times, since Gohan's masenko probably was the strongest ki before Goku arrived.
I just don't see a 10.000 times amplifier being present or anything. It's just beyond ridiculous.

But you doesn't find it also ridiculous to amplify the power by 100 times?

And the issue is that you are arguing that it's impossible for a baseball player to throw a ball in the sun, and that instead he might just hit the moon. Even if the lenght was lowered, it's still the same problem. And for that kind of fantasy, you might just accept that the baseball player hit the sun.

Apparently, it might count when the Son family threw Broli in movie #10 in the sun . On the other hand, Gohan's Masenko was 2x used when he foguht Freeza on Namek (the latter he fought on his 3rd form)

[Titan]

Regarding the OP question i would say a Super Earthling would be very cool.
Ten's alien ancestry would be a good excuse to give him a transformation.Herms suggested Majin Ozotto.

If you believe it. I don't because it just seems so random. As if having three eyes, growing two arms and splitting into four people automatically makes you an alien. And the other annoying thing is that they just seem to give us this information just for the hell of it. With guidbeooks, it's nice to have in-depth information that we didn't get in the series, or just general tidbits on attacks. This just wasn't needed IMO. And what's more, they don't even give any extra information on the "Three-Eyed People". They have a generic name and all we have on them is that Tenshinhan's descended from them and they have three eyes, Shiyo-ken and Shishin no Ken.

Might as well make Chaozu a descendant of the Doll Vampires and Kuririn a descendant of the No-Nosed People.

I'm sorry if i don't take your random opinions as facts like you.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Regarding the OP question i would say a Super Earthling would be very cool.
Ten's alien ancestry would be a good excuse to give him a transformation.Herms suggested Majin Ozotto.

If you believe it. I don't because it just seems so random. As if having three eyes, growing two arms and splitting into four people automatically makes you an alien. And the other annoying thing is that they just seem to give us this information just for the hell of it. With guidbeooks, it's nice to have in-depth information that we didn't get in the series, or just general tidbits on attacks. This just wasn't needed IMO. And what's more, they don't even give any extra information on the "Three-Eyed People". They have a generic name and all we have on them is that Tenshinhan's descended from them and they have three eyes, Shiyo-ken and Shishin no Ken.

Might as well make Chaozu a descendant of the Doll Vampires and Kuririn a descendant of the No-Nosed People.

I'm sorry if i don't take your random opinions as facts like you.

What? It's not random. I was just laying out my opinion. Jeez...