The Shonen Summit: How DBZ Got Screwed Up podcast

[SHINOBI-03]

Just something to share with you. A podcast episode talking about what gone wrong with DBZ to make it such a screwed franchise.

http://www.shunketsuxz.com/2011/01/17/s ... mmit-ep-8/

So far, they've posted part 1 which talks about the manga and Toriyama's writing, the filler in the anime and how it was between DB and DBZ, as well as a talk about best and worst movies.

The upcoming part 2 would cover FUNimation's dub from the Saban era till the end and the releases we had so far from them.

[VegettoEX]

I'm only three minutes in, but I get the distinct impression that these folks (or at least the main host) don't/doesn't really have any familiarity with any shonen pre-DragonBall... which, err, already tosses a few of their points out the window.

(And as I keep listening, yeah, a few of them sound like comparatively-newer anime fans... and there's nothing wrong with that, but it's difficult to argue from a complete and authoritative perspective if you haven't done your research backward.)

The overall topic is definitely a concept worth talking about -- IGN actually hosted a two-part article series (part one / part two), which we discussed a little bit on the podcast, too (and listeners definitely know we don't shy away from admitting when the series has faults, 'cuz it sure does!).

What I do like is that fans are able to examine it to this depth, criticizing it when it deserves it, but do it in a fun way showcasing our own deep love and appreciation for it.

EDIT: Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand there's the "Toriyama intended to end the series at the Freeza arc" (~15 minutes in). (To be fair, the host then counters with it being a rumor, but then destroys it by saying, "But I think it's true!")

[Ahiru77]

^ Saw you coming.

They lost a bit of credibility with the rumor, but in general I didn't find much wrong with their podcast. I agree with their Broly issue.

*sigh*....it's just hearing the same thing over and over again.

[Cipher]

Without having listened to the podcast, what exactly is their definition of a "screwed-up franchise"?

Is it the wildly divided American fanbase? That's pretty fair, but also easily traceable. The only real question there is whether or not it would have a large American fanbase at all had things not panned out the way they did.

Or is it "screwed-up" because of its wildly erratic tone? (Where does the tongue-in-cheek end and the honest attempt at being bad-ass begin?) Again, I think that's easily accountable considering its author, its era and its anime license-holder. You have Toriyama doing whatever personally amuses him, you have the early 1990s pushing "edgy" tones on everything, even in Japanese media, and you have Toei capitalizing on any popular aspect to the nth degree. More than ten years of these elements produced a series and franchise that's really all over the place, and that's okay.

[Kunzait_83]

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[Dr. Casey]

Honestly, I'm not sure I see Dragon Ball having extreme shifts of tone at all. To me the series is very consistent. I can't think of any times where humor bled into scenes that were supposed to be serious (Well, maybe Mr. Satan's involvement in the Cell Games, but then he only had a real presence at the very start and mostly disappeared when the tournament really started), or any abrupt shifts from comical to serious or vice-versa with little or no transition. I don't think the series is all over the place, either... the story changes a lot from the very beginning to some of the later parts, obviously, but I thought the change from the early series to the Saiyan Saga (The Saiyan saga being the last arc where the tone really 'matured', I think; the rest of the series past that point is pretty much full-grown) was a very gradual one that was nothing but perfectly natural. I did think the Buu saga was somewhat schizophrenic, but that's the only part of the story I'd make that claim about. And I think that for the most part any scenes that were dramatic or cool were supposed to be genuinely badass, and that any tongue-in-cheek scenes were made obvious (I don't think that such tongue-in-cheek scenes were very common at all, though... aside from some of the scenes surrounding Tao Pai Pai, who I thought was half tongue-in-cheek and half-genuine badass, nothing much springs to mind. I can see the early and more campy sagas like the original search for the dragon balls and the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai being partially that way, but that element was toned down a lot after the General Blue portion of Red Ribbon and basically nonexistent from Daimao onwards).

[Cipher]

I was speaking less about the shifts within one arc, and more about the changing identity of the series/franchise as it went on. Just look at the way the thing was portrayed at the beginning, and then the way it was being presented in, say, 1992, where it had indeed become something "hardcore," years before Funimation ever played up that aspect. Very different.

And yes, I suppose it can take you aback even within one story arc. I like the whole Wuxia vibe Kunzait was getting at, and I think that's certainly the genre Dragon Ball as a whole falls into. But I'm sure it's off-putting for people when the Buu arc is as silly as possible but features the literal end of the world. Or when the Cell arc is, aside from #17 and #18's antics, deadly serious, yet a clear Terminator pastiche. (This is what I meant by not knowing how tongue-in-cheek it's suppose to be. What do you do with a storyline that asks you to take it incredibly seriously, while being based on a joke?)

Compare it to what people are familiar with now. The other "big two," for example. I'm not intimately familiar with either (I'm not really an anime fan), but from what I gather, it's understood that Naruto is melodrama first, comic relief second. On the other side, One Piece is consistently whimsical overall, with serious moments. Dragon Ball shifts much more dramatically than either of those.

Also, I'm sure we're way off topic by now. It's still interesting though.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I actually like the blend of drama and comic relief in Dragon Ball. While you could argue the Cell arc didn't have much humour (apart from a half-assed last-minute attempt in Mr. Satan right at the end), the Boo arc was good in that it had a villain who had an innocent and child-like nature, but that was the most powerful villain yet, and how his playful, naive nature made him so dangerous.

Same with the Freeza arc. While the Ginyu Force were the arc's only real bit of humour, they were still sadistic henchmen who beat even Vegeta to a pulp.

[SHINOBI-03]

Part 2 of the podcast. It talks about Dragon Ball's history in America.

There's also going to be a third part talking about FUNimation's releases.

[Puto]

You're late.

[SHINOBI-03]

You're late.

I was out of the country for two weeks and not for once had a free time for an internet access.

Thanks anyway for the notice.