Suppose Goku hadn't been the one to fight Yakkon

[Nam]

Would Yakkon have been defeated easily? I just wonder this because Gohan and Vegeta seemed surprised that Goku did the SSJ powerup thing to kill Yakkon, which makes me think they wouldn't have done the same thing. And since I think we can all agree that Goku is the strongest of the 3 of them in base form, and he still only fought roughly equally with Yakkon in base, would Vegeta or Gohan have been able to defeat Yakkon?

[Fox666]

I would say there isn't that much of info in the manga to tell how much Yakon compare to Goku. The best reference might be the moment Goku managed to kick Yakon face, but that was an surprise attack.

Besides, the Boo saga is too confusing in terms of how much strong the saiyans are in their base form. Is the Kiri values given for Super Saiyan Goku and Yakon (3,000 and 800 respectively) proportional to the battle power system? Was Goku Kaio-ken taken in consideration?

So I think I can't give an answer...

I just wonder this because Gohan and Vegeta seemed surprised that Goku did the SSJ powerup thing to kill Yakkon

Huh, is that in the anime? Because I can't see that in the manga.

[lash]

Personally I don't even think Goku would have defeated Yakon in base, as Gohan felt he had to assist him after understanding that Super Saiyan wasn't an option.
So you could guess that I think Gohan and Vegeta would have been screwed even worse unless they did what Goku did.

[Fox666]

Personally I don't even think Goku would have defeated Yakon in base, as Gohan felt he had to assist him after understanding that Super Saiyan wasn't an option.

But there are many interpretations for that scene. Gohan might not even have an idea of Yakon's power, but rather he suggested that because Goku would be in disadvantage in fighting in the dark.

So you could guess that I think Gohan and Vegeta would have been screwed even worse unless they did what Goku did.

Well, I think I will agree with that. I doubt any of them can defeat Yakon if they are blind, and they can't turn SSJ...

But wouldn't they at least try SSJ2? All of them could do that, and Yakon wouldn't be able to absorb that much of energy (not necessary explode if they don't force Yakon to eat the energy like Goku did)

[Kingdom Heartless]

The Yakkon fight has a bit of a filler feel to it... not sating it was bad, it just always seemed more like the anime than the manga. Aside from the fact that it kind of showed Goku use SSj2 for the first time.

[Herms]

It's "Yakon", one 'k'.

[Fox666]

The Yakkon fight has a bit of a filler feel to it... not sating it was bad, it just always seemed more like the anime than the manga. Aside from the fact that it kind of showed Goku use SSj2 for the first time.

That's probably because it's not much relevant for the rest of the plot. And something usual for filler scenes is that it makes no difference for the main plot if they are excluded.

[Ahiru77]

Hey come on....Vegeta AND Gohan...of course. What's the worst thing that could happen ?

[Nam]

They would struggle with it, if they were afraid to use SSJ against him. Their base forms are weaker than Goku's, and Goku didn't seem to have a clear advantage over Yakkon in base.

[CatouttaHell]

Base Gohan would get his head ripped off before he can blink IMO; I have him 8.5x weaker than Goku. Vegeta is far enough below Goku that even if he did have a slight advantage on Yakon he'd still be annihilated. Of course they could just turn Super Saiya-jin and kick Yakon in half before he can so much as open his mouth.

[DNA]

See, this one bit is what I don't get. Goku has trouble fighting in the dark, why? This is also an issue whilst fighting Sanshinron and Iishinron since Goku is blinded. But... why? All the way back in Dragon Ball Goku learned as a kid how to fight without seeing, how to sense energy with his mind, this was taught to him by Mr. Popo. Later in Z is implied that most fighters can watch the fight without necessarily using their eyes. So... why is this an issue to Goku and to anyone? Especially in a later phase when they're so strong. I don't mind the Yakon fight at all, it shows that Babidi's minions are so underclassed that Goku and Vegeta barely need to fight them, the only one that poses a problem is Dabra, and even Vegeta says he could crush him so it's just barely. The only thing I don't understand is just why does anyone have a problem fighting in the dark?

[dbgtFO]

See, this one bit is what I don't get. Goku has trouble fighting in the dark, why? [...] The only thing I don't understand is just why does anyone have a problem fighting in the dark?

It wasn't a problem. Goku specifically stated, that he didn't need to see Yakon to defeat him. He could sense the flow of air, which Mr. Popo taught him how to do, since Yakon does not emit ki.

[DNA]

It wasn't a problem. Goku specifically stated, that he didn't need to see Yakon to defeat him. He could sense the flow of air, which Mr. Popo taught him how to do, since Yakon does not emit ki.

Oh doesn't he know? Fair enough. I wonder if the Shadow Dragons also don't emit ki... Fair enough then, I stand corrected, I haven't read or watched that fight in a very long time.

[Hellspawn28]

We never saw Yakon go all out in battle, we don't know if he has raw ki beam attacks since I recall the only thing he did was cut Goku's shirt and asborb Goku's ki aura. I think they where not able to fight in the dark then Goku would finish him off quicker.

Some people think Pui Pui is around Freeza's first or second form of power and Yakon is stronger then Pui Pui. I don't think Yakon is around Freeza 100% or SSj Goku in terms of power.

[Fox666]

Yakon is undoubtedly times stronger than Freeza in his true form.

You must remember that Kaioshin said he could defeat Freeza with one blow, and Piccolo said Kaioshin was far beyond him. Besides the Daizenshuu clear states "his strength is far superior to the Super Namekian Piccolo".

And how does Yakon compares to Kaioshin?

Dabra: “…I see. But with Yakon as their opponent, they’re all be defeated instantly. I won’t get to have any fun.”

Kaioshin: “Let’s fight together!”
Gohan: “Nah, I think father will be perfectly fine on his own.”
Kaioshin: “…”

Dabra: “Hahhahha. Even without moving them to the Dark Planet, Yakon will be more than enough to defeat them…”

(I just want to note that because of this I also believe that 1 Kiri equal to 1 million in battle power, but of course this is speculation and not relevant to the subject)



I think most people underestimate Yakon because of the deception with Pui-pui.

First of all, I think that some line from Kaioshin was translated mentioning Pui-pui having a terrible power or so, but I couldn't find these in the Strength Checker thread. I would like to see the original line, if it exist at all.

Second, Babidi was already aware that Pui-pui could be in trouble fighting the saiyans and Kaioshin

Pui Pui: “Fuhihihihi…Lord Babidi told me to be careful since these guys have strong energy, but it looks like they’re just a bunch of morons…”

At most, Yakon is clearly stated to be far far stronger than Pui-pui, since Babidi and Dabura believed he could take all the 3 saiyans (plus Kaioshin) alone, while they already realized that every one of the saiyans would be stronger than Pui-pui. Fair logic, don't?

Babidi: “…We probably shouldn’t underestimate those Earthlings…They did Pui-Pui in before he could inflict any damage at all…”

Dabra: “…I see. But with Yakon as their opponent, they’re all be defeated instantly. I won’t get to have any fun.”

So it's easy to see the difference beetween Yakon and Pui-pui.

Besides, if you take the Super Saiyan multiplier to be that of 50 times, it also means that the difference beetween Dabura and Puipui is higher than that. So it's not so unlikely that Yakon was, for example, 20 times stronger than Pui-pui.

Remember the levels of Babidi ship:
- level 1: Pui-pui
- level 2: unknow
- level 3: Yakon
- level 4: Dabura

So it's sounds fair for me that the difference in power beetween them follow this pattern: 40 - 200 - 800 - 4,000 (of course this is pure speculation though)



Of course there is the problem of Goku fighting back Yakon. There might be more than one way to overcome it, but I think the best way to jutify is that Toriyama had in mind how much the Kaio-ken increases Goku's power.

If you put it like this, even the Kiri given for Super Saiyan Goku and Yakon makes sense:
- Goku using the Kaio-ken: 600
- Yakon: 800
- Goku transforming in Super Saiyan: 3,000

There is more than one reason to assume that Toriyama would pay attention to the Kaio-ken.

First that the last time he worked with numberals that represents power everything was in the Freeza battle, which everything involves Kaio-ken, Super Saiyans and the different percentuals used by Freeza.

Second this interview with Toriyama back-ups this idea:

"To be honest, the way I decided upon the Super Saiyan design was for such a... simple reason that it’d make you go "eh?". I only use one assistant (note 3), who has always helped me. My assistant always had to spend a lot of time blacking in Goku's hair (note 4), so the biggest reason was to save time, since if Goku became a Super Saiyan, his hair wouldn't have to be blacked in. What's more, this also had the effect that one could tell with a glance that Goku had gotten stronger, so it was killing two birds with one stone. At the time, it was made out that he was fifty times as strong when he became Super Saiyan, but that's a little extravagant. As far as my feelings as an author go, I think I drew it with the sense of it being a change of about ten times what he had been up until then."

This interview made some rumors, which Toriyama doesn't remember anymore how much the Super Saiyan multiply the power or so.

But of course, if you read it you will notice that Toriyama clearly states that at the time it was estabilished to be a 50 times multiplier (which also back-ups that Toriyama is the source for the battle powers in the guides), and also note that Toriyama uses the words "my feelings" and "about" when describing the 10 times multiplier.

Whatever, the important thing is that Toriyama always keep in mind the Kaio-ken when he thinks of how much the Super Saiyan increases the power.

[Savage68]

I remember hearing a fellow fan's theory on the enemies on Babidi's ship -- that their respective powers were meant to rival that of each (DBZ) arc's ultimate antagonists up 'till that point. Puipui was Saiyan arc Vegeta, Yakon was Freeza and Dabra was Cell. I've always like the sound of this.

[Kaboom]

Kaioshin knows how strong he is, with the whole "take out Freeza in one blow" thing.

But does Bobbidi know that? Would he have any idea of anyone's actual strength? Neither he nor Dabra seemed to be anything but clueless about how powerful any of their opponents were.

[Son_Gohan]

I remember hearing a fellow fan's theory on the enemies on Babidi's ship -- that their respective powers were meant to rival that of each (DBZ) arc's ultimate antagonists up 'till that point. Puipui was Saiyan arc Vegeta, Yakon was Freeza and Dabra was Cell. I've always like the sound of this.

Makes sense.

Even the gravity on Pui Pui's homeworld was 10x of Earth's; identical to Planet Vegeta's.

Kaioshin knows how strong he is, with the whole "take out Freeza in one blow" thing.

But does Bobbidi know that? Would he have any idea of anyone's actual strength? Neither he nor Dabra seemed to be anything but clueless about how powerful any of their opponents were.

Well their statements before they entered the ship would indicate that they had some idea:

Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.1-3
Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co.
Dabra: “Seems they’re trying to hide from us…In total…there are 7. We can’t use Kaioshin and Kibito’s energy…But 3 of them seem to have marvelous energy…”
Babidi: “Looks like it. It seems that we’ll get more than enough energy from just those 3…Kuhihihi…To think that we’d be able to revive Majin Boo so quickly…”

Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.4
Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co.
Babidi: “Get rid of the trash besides those 3 [Goku, Gohan, Vegeta], then return to the spaceship right away. That way, I think those 3 will fly into a rage and follow you inside for sure.”

Chapter: 449 (DBZ 255), P4.6
Context: talking about facing Vegeta alone.
Pui Pui: “Fuhihihihi…Lord Babidi told me to be careful since these guys have strong energy, but it looks like they’re just a bunch of morons…”
Note: Pui Pui was told to be careful about the Saiyans, implying, that what Dabra and Babidi felt from them would be enough to make it a difficult fight for Pui Pui, if he wasn't careful.

[dbgtFO]

I remember hearing a fellow fan's theory on the enemies on Babidi's ship -- that their respective powers were meant to rival that of each (DBZ) arc's ultimate antagonists up 'till that point. Puipui was Saiyan arc Vegeta, Yakon was Freeza and Dabra was Cell. I've always like the sound of this.

That also makes sense to me. I also have Pui Pui close to Saiyan Arc Vegeta, Yakon close to 100% Freeza and Dabra close to Cell(Daizenshuu 7 even says his Fighting Power is equal to Cell's so maybe in a future poWa level list I'll put him as equal to Super Perfect Cell!)

[Dabooyaka]

That makes sense, especially the dabura thing. Dabura is somewere up there around Cell IMO. as for the other ones, who knows.