Goku's true boost in strength when becoming Super Saiyan?

[beast mode]

• (Freeza) (BP)
  Normal Goku (3,000,000)
  Normal Goku (Kaio-ken x10) (30,000,000)
  Normal Goku (Kaio-ken x20) (60,000,000)
  Super Saiyan Goku (150,000,000) (50x increase)
  
  (Majin Buu) (Kiri)
  Yakon (800)
  Normal (higher than 800, probably 1,000 or 1,500)
  Super Saiyan (3,000) (2x/3x increase)
  
  I believe in one of the more recent data books Toriyama states that he originally imagined the Super Saiyan transformation as multiplying Goku's base power by 10x

OK, now we have 3 different conflicting (or are they?) statements on just how much stronger Goku becomes by transforming. I think I figured out a way to reconcile these.

During Goku's first transformation he indeed becomes 50x stronger than his base... or his old base. The transformation didn't just multiply his power by 50, but increased his natural power 5-fold then multiplies by 10-fold (temporarily) on top of that. So now he'd look like this:

• Normal Goku (15,000,000)
  Super Saiyan Goku (150,000,000) (10x increase)

Ah, but what about Kaio-ken? Why wouldn't Goku just use it x20! Then he'd be twice as strong as a Super Saiyan! Well, I think we need to look to another big strength increase, Gohan's in the Majin Buu arc where his Super Saiyan forms don't do anything! I think this is because those forms are actually still multiplying off his original base, even after the boost in power.

• Gohan (A)
  Gohan (B) (Way stronger than x10 Gohan (A))
  Super Saiyan Gohan (Gohan Ax10)

Even if he uses Super Saiyan, it's still weaker than his 'new base', effectively giving him no strength bonus, just a waste of ki.

So Goku's Kaio-ken multiplications are still multiplying off his 'old base' while his Super Saiyan transformation is multiplying off his 'new base'

• Normal Goku (15,000,000)
  Normal Goku (Kaio-ken x10) (30,000,000)
  Normal Goku (Kaio-ken x20) (60,000,000)
  Super Saiyan Goku (150,000,000) (10x increase)

Even if Goku used Kaio-ken x40, he'd still be weaker than his Super Saiyan form, so I assume he just gave up on that technique.

Now there's the problem of his Super Saiyan transformation going from a 10x increase to a 2x or 3x increase in the Buu arc. However, since I've established Goku's power as rising 5-fold after transforming into a Super Saiyan then his new form being a 10x increase on top of that, we can assume that this is true for Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3, but if these new forms are a 10x increase, then the original Super Saiyan (or Super Saiyan 2 circa Super Saiyan 3) must now become a lower multiplier (and guess what, halving the Super Saiyan increase with each successive transformation ends up with a 2.5x increase on Goku's base form, the perfect number between the probable 2x or 3x I established earlier):

• (note: these battle powers are all assuming that Goku didn't gain any strength other than what he got from the Super Saiyan transformations to make everything super simple)
  (edit: actually the battle powers are all Goku circa the Freeza battle but the Kiri levels are taking into a count all his training and general increases up to the final Majin Buu arc, but the ratio is the same)
  
  Normal Goku (3,000,000 BP/10 Kiri)
  
  Normal Goku (15,000,000/48 Kiri)
  Super Saiyan Goku (150,000,000/480 Kiri) (10x)
  
  Normal Goku (75,000,000/240 Kiri)
  Super Saiyan Goku (375,000,000/1,200 Kiri) (5x)
  Super Saiyan 2 Goku (750,000,000/2,400 Kiri) (10x)
  
  Normal Goku (375,000,000/1,200 Kiri)
  Super Saiyan Goku (937,500,000 BP/3,000 Kiri) (2.5x)
  Super Saiyan 2 Goku (1,875,000,000 BP/6,000 Kiri) (5x)
  Super Saiyan 3 Goku (3,750,000,000 BP/12,000 Kiri) (10x)

Bonus:

• Super Kaio Ken (x2 on top of whatever the original Super Saiyan's multiplier is or equivelant to Super Saiyan 2, although massively less efficient I suppose)

If you guys see any holes in this (or ways to improve) please do tell!


I know Toriyama never cared about any of this. It's still fun to see if you can make sense out of it all, though.

[Fox666]

(Majin Buu) (Kiri)
Yakon (800)
Normal (higher than 800, probably 1,000 or 1,500)
Super Saiyan (3,000) (2x/3x increase)

You can't take that for certain. It's something open for interpretation.

We don't have enough information about the Kiri system. Nor we know if Toriyama take in account the Kaio-ken when he estabilished these values. (if for example Toriyama take in account the Kaio-ken, it would put Goku at 600 Kiri which is plausible)

I believe in one of the more recent data books Toriyama states that he originally imagined the Super Saiyan transformation as multiplying Goku's base power by 10x

That's actually not true. As far I can tell, some fan misunderstood the interview with Toriyama.

Here is the interview:

"To be honest, the way I decided upon the Super Saiyan design was for such a... simple reason that it’d make you go "eh?". I only use one assistant (note 3), who has always helped me. My assistant always had to spend a lot of time blacking in Goku's hair (note 4), so the biggest reason was to save time, since if Goku became a Super Saiyan, his hair wouldn't have to be blacked in. What's more, this also had the effect that one could tell with a glance that Goku had gotten stronger, so it was killing two birds with one stone. At the time, it was made out that he was fifty times as strong when he became Super Saiyan, but that's a little extravagant. As far as my feelings as an author go, I think I drew it with the sense of it being a change of about ten times what he had been up until then."

First of all, Toriyama mentions that it was made out at the time it was a 50 times increase. Since he is the author, it means he estabilished it.

Toriyama did not mention it was a 10 times increases, but rather that his "feelings as an author go" for a 10 times increases. And this is VERY different of saying it's a 10 times increase.

In fact, you shouldn't even take "10 times" as literal. Not just because it's ABOUT 10 times, but Toriyama has the habit of using this value (i.e. Oozaru, Kaioken 10x), and he even describes it as a "feeling".

So as far I can tell, Goku was using the Kaio-ken of 10x, making the actual boost of Goku power as a Super Saiyan a 5x increase. And in my oppinion this falls under the description of a "feeling" or "sense" of a change of "about" ten times "until then".

[beast mode]

(Majin Buu) (Kiri)
Yakon (800)
Normal (higher than 800, probably 1,000 or 1,500)
Super Saiyan (3,000) (2x/3x increase)

You can't take that for certain. It's something open for interpretation.

We don't have enough information about the Kiri system. Nor we know if Toriyama take in account the Kaio-ken when he estabilished these values. (if for example Toriyama take in account the Kaio-ken, it would put Goku at 600 Kiri which is plausible)

Well, I can take 3,000 and 800 for certain. Goku is clearly winning against Yakon without turning Super Saiyan meaning he must be over 800 in his normal form. By halving the Super Saiyan multiplier from 10x to 5x (after attaining Super Saiyan 2) and 5x to 2.5x (after attaining Super Saiyan 3,) it just fits in perfectly for his base to be 1,200.

I believe in one of the more recent data books Toriyama states that he originally imagined the Super Saiyan transformation as multiplying Goku's base power by 10x

That's actually not true. As far I can tell, some fan misunderstood the interview with Toriyama.

Here is the interview:

"To be honest, the way I decided upon the Super Saiyan design was for such a... simple reason that it’d make you go "eh?". I only use one assistant (note 3), who has always helped me. My assistant always had to spend a lot of time blacking in Goku's hair (note 4), so the biggest reason was to save time, since if Goku became a Super Saiyan, his hair wouldn't have to be blacked in. What's more, this also had the effect that one could tell with a glance that Goku had gotten stronger, so it was killing two birds with one stone. At the time, it was made out that he was fifty times as strong when he became Super Saiyan, but that's a little extravagant. As far as my feelings as an author go, I think I drew it with the sense of it being a change of about ten times what he had been up until then."

First of all, Toriyama mentions that it was made out at the time it was a 50 times increase. Since he is the author, it means he estabilished it.

Toriyama did not mention it was a 10 times increases, but rather that his "feelings as an author go" for a 10 times increases. And this is VERY different of saying it's a 10 times increase.

In fact, you shouldn't even take "10 times" as literal. Not just because it's ABOUT 10 times, but Toriyama has the habit of using this value (i.e. Oozaru, Kaioken 10x), and he even describes it as a "feeling".

So as far I can tell, Goku was using the Kaio-ken of 10x, making the actual boost of Goku power as a Super Saiyan a 5x increase. And in my oppinion this falls under the description of a "feeling" or "sense" of a change of "about" ten times "until then".

At the time, it was made out that he was fifty times as strong when he became Super Saiyan, but that's a little extravagant.

Meaning: having him become fifty times stronger every time he transforms is ridiculous.

As far as my feelings as an author go, I think I drew it with the sense of it being a change of about ten times what he had been up until then.

Seems to me like he needed Goku to go x50 for the Freeza fight, but afterwords something more like x10 is appropriate.

So as far I can tell, Goku was using the Kaio-ken of 10x, making the actual boost of Goku power as a Super Saiyan a 5x increase. And in my oppinion this falls under the description of a "feeling" or "sense" of a change of "about" ten times "until then".

I believe No. 20 says that Goku's Super Saiyan technique is different than Kaio-ken, meaning Goku most likely does not use Kaio-ken while being a Super Saiyan.
(edit: it also wouldn't explain every other Super Saiyan)

[Brohan]

I think you're looking way too deep into this.

[hleV]

What exactly did Goku do that made you sooo certain about his power at least being on par with Yakon's?

[beast mode]

What exactly did Goku do that made you sooo certain about his power at least being on par with Yakon's?

Goku dodges/counters each one of his attacks before going Super Saiyan.

[Bussani]

Super Saiyan Goku (150,000,000) (50x increase)

Super Saiyan (3,000) (2x/3x increase)

What if the relationship between battle powers and kiri isn't linear?

[beast mode]

Super Saiyan Goku (150,000,000) (50x increase)

Super Saiyan (3,000) (2x/3x increase)

What if the relationship between battle powers and kiri isn't linear?

Because nothing says they aren't. Occam's razor cuttin' that shit up, I think.

[Bussani]

Because nothing says they aren't. Occam's razor cuttin' that shit up, I think.

Nothing says they are linear, either. I'm not sure you can call Occam's razor when one isn't more likely or logical than the other.

...And considering how complicated your own theory is, I think bringing up Occam's razor was probably a bad idea.

[Kaboom]

Well, why don't we take in everything we know about the Kiri system, and see if it works in a linear fashion?

The anime, and the Daizenshuu along with it, note that it requires a level of 200-300 Kiri to destroy "one or two planets." The weakest character whom we've actually seen definitely destroy a planet is first-form Freeza, with a Battle Power of 530,000. If we take both these points as the bare minimums, and then convert it, we get 1 Kiri = 2650 BP.

Yakon's 800 Kiri would be 2,120,000 in Battle Power.
Super Saiyan Goku's 3000 Kiri would be a mere 7,950,000.
"Not even 4000 Kiri" being enough to defeat Dabra would equate to "not even a Battle Power of 10,600,000."

Even if we take the quote about the requirement as actually, "to destroy two planets at once," then things would only roughly get doubled, or tripled at the most. Somehow, I think everyone involved is just a liiiittle bit stronger than that.

[beast mode]

Yeah, but that's not in the Manga. Also, Vegeta said he could destroy Earth during his fight with Goku, if that's even remotely possible you'd think that any minor Ki blast in the Buu arc would destroy the entire planet, but they don't. So I find it hard to take anything to do with planet destroying seriously.

If Goku never trained or got any more powerful from the moment he first turned Super Saiyan to the Buu arc: 150,000,000 BP = 3,000 Kiri or 50,000 BP per 1 Kiri (It's obviously way higher than that.)

[Kaboom]

Yeah, but that's not in the Manga.

It's still literally the only Kiri-to-Battle Power reference that exists. Disregard it, and we're back to square one with nothing solid to go by.

[mister yummy]

That logic falls apart. Vegita destroyed Arlia with at 18,000 power level. If you wanna stick to the manga, Roshi destroys the moon with a power level under 300. The moon's larger than a lot of planets, such as Pluto and Mercury. Maybe mercury's bigger, but if so, not by much.

[Kaboom]

Well, the lower the minimum Battle power gets, then the lower the equivalent Kiri gets, too. 18,000 BP equaling 200 Kiri would mean 1 Kiri = 90 BP, which means Yakon's only got a Battle Power of 72,000 and SSj Goku's only at 270,000. If small planets only need 1000 BP to be destroyed, then it's 5 BP per Kiri, and now Yakon's barely giving Nappa trouble and SSj Goku can't beat Saiyan-arc Vegeta.

So I used Freeza as that bare minimum for that very reason; to give the benefit of the doubt to the equivalent Kiri level.

[beast mode]

Or you can just not pay attention to the non-canon line that doesn't make much sense.

If Goku never trained or got any more powerful from the moment he first turned Super Saiyan to the Buu arc: 150,000,000 BP = 3,000 Kiri or 50,000 BP per 1 Kiri (It's obviously way more BP than that.)

So Yakon's well over 40,000,000 BP.
Freeza is significantly weaker than 2,400 Kiri.
Nappa's lower than .1 Kiri.

[Fox666]

At the time, it was made out that he was fifty times as strong when he became Super Saiyan, but that's a little extravagant.

Meaning: having him become fifty times stronger every time he transforms is ridiculous.

As far as my feelings as an author go, I think I drew it with the sense of it being a change of about ten times what he had been up until then.

Seems to me like he needed Goku to go x50 for the Freeza fight, but afterwords something more like x10 is appropriate.

So as far I can tell, Goku was using the Kaio-ken of 10x, making the actual boost of Goku power as a Super Saiyan a 5x increase. And in my oppinion this falls under the description of a "feeling" or "sense" of a change of "about" ten times "until then".

I believe No. 20 says that Goku's Super Saiyan technique is different than Kaio-ken, meaning Goku most likely does not use Kaio-ken while being a Super Saiyan.
(edit: it also wouldn't explain every other Super Saiyan)

You did not get my point:

While Goku transformation increases his power by 50 times, before it he was using the Kaio-ken, which increases his power by 10 times.

So Goku did not get that stronger after becoming Super Saiyan compared to his early fight with Freeza.

So in Toriyama's feelings being a 50 times multiplier is "extravagant".

Well, I can take 3,000 and 800 for certain. Goku is clearly winning against Yakon without turning Super Saiyan meaning he must be over 800 in his normal form. By halving the Super Saiyan multiplier from 10x to 5x (after attaining Super Saiyan 2) and 5x to 2.5x (after attaining Super Saiyan 3,) it just fits in perfectly for his base to be 1,200.

That's pure speculation. We haven't seen enough of them to judge their power. Besides, both Goku and Yakon were underestimating each other.

...And considering how complicated your own theory is, I think bringing up Occam's razor was probably a bad idea.

I agree. It's something with too many guesses and based over speculation based over speculation...

[beast mode]

You did not get my point:

While Goku transformation increases his power by 50 times, before it he was using the Kaio-ken, which increases his power by 10 times.

So Goku did not get that stronger after becoming Super Saiyan compared to his early fight with Freeza.

So in Toriyama's feelings being a 50 times multiplier is "extravagant".

Ahh now I see what you mean. Sorry for the confusion.

So is he just not remembering that the Super Saiyan transformation DID increase his power by 50 times, thinking that Goku's natural strength was when using Kaio-ken x10 against Freeza?

Well, I can take 3,000 and 800 for certain. Goku is clearly winning against Yakon without turning Super Saiyan meaning he must be over 800 in his normal form. By halving the Super Saiyan multiplier from 10x to 5x (after attaining Super Saiyan 2) and 5x to 2.5x (after attaining Super Saiyan 3,) it just fits in perfectly for his base to be 1,200.

That's pure speculation. We haven't seen enough of them to judge their power. Besides, both Goku and Yakon were underestimating each other.

...And considering how complicated your own theory is, I think bringing up Occam's razor was probably a bad idea.

I agree. It's something with too many guesses and based over speculation based over speculation...

Anything to do with numbers/strict multiplication of strength after Freeza is speculation in nature, so...

Chapter: 451 (DBZ 257), P3.1
Babidi: "...Is this measuring device malfunctioning...? But if he really is 3,000 kiri... Then Yakon can't win against him... Yakon's energy is 800 kiri..."

If we take Goku's Super Saiyan power up as being 10-fold he should be 300 kiri or 50-fold, 60 kiri. Which you think would be low enough to have Yakon be able to at least hit Goku.

[CatouttaHell]

Super Saiyan Goku (150,000,000) (50x increase)

Super Saiyan (3,000) (2x/3x increase)

What if the relationship between battle powers and kiri isn't linear?

This. I've tried to make the Kiri thing make sense so many times and failed that I don't even bother to anymore. Freeza suppressed to 530,000 destroyed a large planet (Planet Vegeta) and there's no way even suppressed SSjin Goku is at 5,300,000. His base form should be at USSjin 2 Trunks level by now at least IMHO (with the standard 50x increase.)

[beast mode]

Super Saiyan Goku (150,000,000) (50x increase)

Super Saiyan (3,000) (2x/3x increase)

What if the relationship between battle powers and kiri isn't linear?

This. I've tried to make the Kiri thing make sense so many times and failed that I don't even bother to anymore. Freeza suppressed to 530,000 destroyed a large planet (Planet Vegeta) and there's no way even suppressed SSjin Goku is at 5,300,000. His base form should be at USSjin 2 Trunks level by now at least IMHO (with the standard 50x increase.)

This post makes zero sense to me. Why are we putting logic into planet destroying? Why is Goku's base form as strong as USSJ2 Trunks? Why do we need to say that the kiri is bullshit because 50x doesn't work? It's possible that the power-up become less of a multiplier with time/gaining new SSJ stages/getting stronger/becoming 'Full-Power.'

[Fox666]

Ahh now I see what you mean. Sorry for the confusion.

So is he just not remembering that the Super Saiyan transformation DID increase his power by 50 times, thinking that Goku's natural strength was when using Kaio-ken x10 against Freeza?

He isn't "not remembering". It's Toriyama who mention that it is a 50 times multiplier. What he says is that his feelings are others, which doesn't contradict the first statement.