My odd little theory on the SSj3 transformation.

[Kaboom]

Brohan's post got lost in the digital ether:

Super 17 was beaten by exploiting a weakness iirc.

[ItsAllGood]

I've always liked to believe that SSJ3 is simply an evolutionary phase embedded within the Saiyan DNA, one that is not achievable within a typical Saiyan's lifetime, but one that is unlocked in due course. Rather, Goku was able to access or move further along this evolutionary phase only after he had sufficient time to do so, i.e Training after Death, and the RoSAT.

Take humans for example. If we were to lock a group of humans away on a temporal plane where:

a.) One year equates to 10,000 years (speculative) and;
b.) All they are allowed to do is train physically (or mentally) and grow stronger.

Are those human that return after a year with 10,000 years of evolution going to be subject to the same limitations as current humans? Will they even physically look the same?

Now, factor in a Saiyan's evolution. Whilst SSJ and 2 are a reasonable strain for the rapidly-evolving (power-wise) race, there are still uncharted areas of strength to be sought based on their superior genetics, and genetic potential.

This is also the reason that Freeza destroyed their home planet - genetic potential and the Saiyan's recent huge leaps in power. They were beginning to reach the first milestone in their evolution that would see these once huge power-levels becoming common-place in the general populace, rather than the one-off legendary SSJ from a thousand years ago.

Whilst this may take thousands of years of evolution to allow the Saiyan race as a whole to raise to this power-level, the genetic potential exists within the race, and would be unlocked at the appropriate time in the future.

In my view, Goku, with the years of training outside of the normal realm, was able to fast-track this evolution and is essentially showing the Saiyan races' absolute pinnacle form. Should Goku opt for another millennium or two, he may be able to access this power and become comfortable enough to remain in that form, almost a "full-powered SSJ3"

This can go part way to explaining why Vegeta felt so utterly helpless when he saw Goku's SSJ3 form. Deep down, he realized that Goku was more powerful than him, but also that no matter how hard he trains, he could never make up for the years of training Goku undertook on a different plane, that ultimately took him further down the line of evolution than Vegeta.

[Dabooyaka]

All this "Super Saiyan 3 is only achieved by dead people" is bull, I think. It's obviously in the Saiyans' DNA, so it's something that is meant to be used. Goku, being Goku, figured it out. Gotenks, being fusions and seeing it, did the same.

[Cipher]

I just watched the episode before the one where Goku returns to the afterlife.

He says, "That Super Saiyan 3 thing I did earlier? It's a technique I can only use in the Other World. Here in this world where you have time, it uses up too much energy, and all at once it gets me tired out."

Piccolo says, "If that's the case, ask Dende to have him replenish your energy!"

To which Goku responds, "No. This is something I have to go back to the Other World for."

That's ... not normal. And although we do see him use Super Saiyan 3 while alive later in both Z and GT, he can't get it to full power, and can't use it at all as a child until he regrows his tail. The fact that the form is almost unusable in a living body should be more than enough to show it's different from the others. There's something incredibly unnatural about it.

[Dabooyaka]

I think is just him not used to the transformation, i find it odd that a saiyan has the ability to transform into a ssj3 only while being dead. I mean, how many saiyans get to come back from the dead? Its simply a transformation like any other, some saiyans can unlock it, others cant.

[Cipher]

I think is just him not used to the transformation, i find it odd that a saiyan has the ability to transform into a ssj3 only while being dead. I mean, how many saiyans get to come back from the dead? Its simply a transformation like any other, some saiyans can unlock it, others cant.

Almost none, which is exactly how many were ever meant to achieve Super Saiyan 3. It's not a normal transformation.

Used to it or not, Goku tells us in no uncertain terms that it draws too much energy to be used in the living world. That means it's something no living Saiyan should ever have been able to find or use. Drawing out that much energy is so unnatural the only two Saiyans to find it have to be dead and a magical fusion respectively.

[Son_Gohan]

Almost none, which is exactly how many were ever meant to achieve Super Saiyan 3. It's not a normal transformation.

Used to it or not, Goku tells us in no uncertain terms that it draws too much energy to be used in the living world. That means it's something no living Saiyan should ever have been able to find or use. Drawing out that much energy is so unnatural the only two Saiyans to find it have to be dead and a magical fusion respectively.

If it were shown to be a transformation exclusive to Goku then perhaps, however the fact that Gotenks achieves the exact same form; appearance and all, proves that it is a normal transformation and part of any Saiyan's capacity to achieve. Gotenks is able to attain SSJ3 so quickly due to his vast potential, he simply had more Ki. Just because it drains so much energy does not deem it an "unnatural" form, all Super Saiyan forms have stressed the Saiyan somewhat; Super Saiyan 2 has been said to have the most affect on the individual mentally, while Super Saiyan 3 is shown to be the most taxing physically.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

Almost none, which is exactly how many were ever meant to achieve Super Saiyan 3. It's not a normal transformation.

Used to it or not, Goku tells us in no uncertain terms that it draws too much energy to be used in the living world. That means it's something no living Saiyan should ever have been able to find or use. Drawing out that much energy is so unnatural the only two Saiyans to find it have to be dead and a magical fusion respectively.

If it were shown to be a transformation exclusive to Goku then perhaps, however the fact that Gotenks achieves the exact same form; appearance and all, proves that it is a normal transformation and part of any Saiyan's capacity to achieve. Gotenks is able to attain SSJ3 so quickly due to his vast potential, he simply had more Ki. Just because it drains so much energy does not deem it an "unnatural" form, all Super Saiyan forms have stressed the Saiyan somewhat; Super Saiyan 2 has been said to have the most affect on the individual mentally, while Super Saiyan 3 is shown to be the most taxing physically.

But you already brought up that fusions are super-powered, supposedly explaining away their being children, and that they trained for who knows how long in an unnatural, weighted dimension. Neither fusion or weighted, distorted rooms are natural phenomenons.

[Son_Gohan]

But you already brought up that fusions are super-powered, supposedly explaining away their being children, and that they trained for who knows how long in an unnatural, weighted dimension. Neither fusion or weighted, distorted rooms are natural phenomenons.

They were in the room for half an hour, which was about a week and half a day for them.

I wouldn't say fusions in general are "super-powered", the entity created is dependent on the agents; Goten & Trunks happened to be very strong for their age and yielded great potentials. When you combine those two potentials together it results in an even greater potential pool. The Room of Spirit and Time doesn't add special properties to an individual's power that they wouldn't be able to obtain by training in their own dimension; the setting just allows them to obtain that power exponentially faster.

This "unnatural" label that most people associate with Super Saiyan 3, seems mostly due to the where and the circumstances that are related to the only two Saiyans shown to achieve it. But you don't need to be dead, in an alternate dimension, a non-fused Saiyan, or need any other special properties to use it. The only thing it really comes down to is Ki and how much of it you have; Gotenks' existence may be constrained by time but he possesses far more Ki and therefore, was able to obtain it faster and does not fatigue like Goku does when using the form. With the potential Gohan had, if he continued training (and perhaps experienced a few rage boosts to speed up the process) there is no doubt in my mind that he would have achieved Super Saiyan 3 as well.

[Cipher]

Gotenks is able to attain SSJ3 so quickly due to his vast potential, he simply had more Ki.

An unnatural amount of ki. More ki than a normal living body could output.

The only thing it really comes down to is Ki and how much of it you have; Gotenks' existence may be constrained by time but he possesses far more Ki and therefore, was able to obtain it faster and does not fatigue like Goku does when using the form.

Here's the thing though: it doesn't just use a great deal of ki. It uses more ki than a living, unfused body can sustain for any amount of time. With Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2, if the Saiyan wasn't strong enough, he simply didn't reach those levels. Even then, they were draining, but proportionally so to the fighter's strength. Super Saiyan 3 seems to use more ki than the maximum their body is equipped to handle.

Gotenks, and all fusions, doesn't just possess more ki. He, by the very nature of being a combination of two powers plus some unseen bonus, possesses more ki than his natural equivalent could ever muster. Goten has a lot of ki, Trunks has a lot of ki, but Gotenks has more ki than both of them put together; an unnatural amount for his body.

Super Saiyan 3 physically taxing you can't use it effectively on Earth. There's no debating this. Goku says it barely works in the living realm. Even when Goten and Trunks ask him about it, he says it uses too much energy to work.

If the only two people to ever use it are dead and a fusion, respectively, and its discoverer comments directly on the fact that it's so draining it can't be used while alive, that's unnatural. Obviously it's coded into Saiyans, but a normal living person can't draw it out. Is there a possibility some highly skilled Saiyan might eventually, in a Shin Kikoho-style moment of life-threatening ki output, stumble across it for a second? I mean, maybe. But without the benefit of wealth of excess ki fusion provides, or the lack of physical stress being dead provides, it's unlikely and maybe impossible that they'd be capable of that output in the first place.

Think of it like the unused, unfinished maps in Goldeneye for N64. Yes, there's data for them in every copy of the game, but the only way to access them is through unorthodox means and they don't play very well. Maybe if you keep your Gameshark hooked up and mess around with them enough, you can kinda-sorta learn how to play on them and avoid glitches, etc, as Goku kinda-sorta learns to use Super Saiyan 3 on Earth, but they'll still never work right. Just as Goku's Super Saiyan 3 still never works right.

And if you want to bring GT and some retroactive logic into it, Saiyans do indeed have a natural way of accessing that level of power (and greater). But they have to do it through the intended, substantially less draining method of Super Saiyan 4. So consider Super Saiyan 4 a patch for a game that lets you play a finished version of those scrapped versions normally. Yeah, you could have accessed them a long time ago, but there was no normal way to do it and they didn't run very well because of it.

[Dabooyaka]

If it's present in the Saiyans' DNA, I don't see why they could not make it work in the living world. Goku is just that good in my opinion.
He used it against kid Boo for a while. Problem is, kid Boo was his rival, so he got tired too fast.

[Fox666]

Huh, I assume that the time limit for Goku is the same as Gotenks (5 minutes), Goku simply didn't knew that. Who knews, maybe in the afterlife he could keep it for half an hour.