Goku's true boost in strength when becoming Super Saiyan?

[Kaboom]

Toriyama's comment means, "I envisioned something like a 10x boost but it ended up being 50x." That's all. He's not trying to say, "I say it's only 10x, so ignore all this 50x nonsense!"

[Puto]

Hell, the man flat out states it's 50 times in that very comment. I don't see why anybody's arguing about it.

[beast mode]

"At the time, it was made out that he was fifty times as strong when he became Super Saiyan, but that's a little extravagant. As far as my feelings as an author go, I think I drew it with the sense of it being a change of about ten times what he had been up until then."

His intent was for Super Saiyan to be a change of about ten times, fifty times is a technicality brought about by the hole he dug himself into with Kaio-ken and Battle Powers during the Freeza fight that he considers "extravagant."

I don't think it is a huge stretch to say that every time someone turned Super Saiyan afterword his intentions didn't change to accommodate a 50x increase. (Goku vs. Yakon: where even a 10x increase is unlikely, let alone 50x.)

[Kaboom]

Hell, the man flat out states it's 50 times in that very comment. I don't see why anybody's arguing about it.

Not only that, but every guidebook mention of Super Saiyan's boost thereafter (even in the GT Perfect Files) lists it as being a 50x boost. I think it's safe to assume it stayed the same.

Yakon vs Goku is a bit confusing, but there's other ways to explain it, especially with how little we know about the Kiri system.

[beast mode]

One theory is that it becomes as much as 50 times what it is normally!! There’s also types like Grade Two, which raises power and speed through ki, and Grade Three, which relies too much on power!!

OK, let's contemplate Super Saiyan being a 50x increase, as well as Dabra's comments on destroying 1-2 planets requiring at least 200-300 Kiri being canon.

3,000 is 3.75x greater than 800. A 3.75x increase in Kiri translates to 50x increase in BP.
If 200 Kiri = 530,000 BP, 800 is a 4x increase in Kiri. 800 Kiri should also be 53.33333333333333x stronger than 200 Kiri. Goku's base and Yakon should rate as 28,266,666.66666666 BP. Super Saiyan Goku would then be equal to 1,413,333,333.333333 BP. During the Freeza arc Super Saiyan Goku would be 283.0188679245283x stronger than Freeza's first form or 3,773.584905660377 Kiri. Blah, I don't know. None of this makes much sense. It's a lot easier to assume that Super Saiyan is just not a 50x increase at this point and Kiri works the same as BP, just for stronger dudes.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

OK, let's contemplate Super Saiyan being a 50x increase, as well as Dabra's comments on destroying 1-2 planets requiring at least 200-300 Kiri being canon.

3,000 is 3.75x greater than 800. A 3.75x increase in Kiri translates to 50x increase in BP.
If 200 Kiri = 530,000 BP, 800 is a 4x increase in Kiri. 800 Kiri should also be 53.33333333333333x stronger than 200 Kiri. Goku's base and Yakon should rate as 28,266,666.66666666 BP. Super Saiyan Goku would then be equal to 1,413,333,333.333333 BP. During the Freeza arc Super Saiyan Goku would be 283.0188679245283x stronger than Freeza's first form or 3,773.584905660377 Kiri. Blah, I don't know. None of this makes much sense. It's a lot easier to assume that Super Saiyan is just not a 50x increase at this point and Kiri works the same as BP, just for stronger dudes.

I dunno about you, but I assume you have that statement backwards. It's easier to assume that the relation isn't linear and conversions between the two systems are impossible, at least without some complex formula that we'll never know because Toriyama just didn't care. We are told Super Saiyan is a 50x increase, and attempting to explain that it isn't or that it somehow decreases is when you start making things harder than they need to be...

All in all, Kanzentai explains why Toriyama chose the numbers he did for Super Saiyan Goku and Yakon:

Incidentally, the numbers given for Yakon and Goku, 800 and 3,000, are both commonly used in Japanese as a symbolic way of saying "an enormous amount", similar to the way the number 40 is used throughout the Christian Bible. For instance, the 800 temples of Kyoto are proverbial, as are the 8 million gods of Shinto (8 million being 800 man in Japanese, that is 800x10,000), while in Buddhism the phrase "3,000 worlds" signifies all of creation.

In other words, Toriyama was just trying to be clever in saying "these guys are really strong".

[hleV]

Goku have had SSJ form mastered, right? I think it's pretty possible that he only transformed to brighten everything around, but his power didn't necessary increase 50 times. He may as well have had 3000 Kiri in both base and SSJ forms, as he had full control of them.

[p123]

I look as SSJ as a 50x boost, and MSSJ as a 4x boost...

[Fox666]

Goku have had SSJ form mastered, right? I think it's pretty possible that he only transformed to brighten everything around, but his power didn't necessary increase 50 times. He may as well have had 3000 Kiri in both base and SSJ forms, as he had full control of them.

That's possible, but the relaxed state of Super Saiyan that Goku had at the Cell Games is quite different of the power-up he used against Yakon.

[Kaboom]

Well, the 3000 reading was from when he was just standing around and glowing. Not from when he powered up to engorge Yakon.

[Brohan]

/\This, why is it so hard to believe that he was just suppressing his ki?

[Piccolo Daimao]

I look as SSJ as a 50x boost, and MSSJ as a 4x boost...

But Full-Power Super Saiyan was never stated to increase the person's power, only to make it more natural and conserve ki.

[beast mode]

OK, let's contemplate Super Saiyan being a 50x increase, as well as Dabra's comments on destroying 1-2 planets requiring at least 200-300 Kiri being canon.

3,000 is 3.75x greater than 800. A 3.75x increase in Kiri translates to 50x increase in BP.
If 200 Kiri = 530,000 BP, 800 is a 4x increase in Kiri. 800 Kiri should also be 53.33333333333333x stronger than 200 Kiri. Goku's base and Yakon should rate as 28,266,666.66666666 BP. Super Saiyan Goku would then be equal to 1,413,333,333.333333 BP. During the Freeza arc Super Saiyan Goku would be 283.0188679245283x stronger than Freeza's first form or 3,773.584905660377 Kiri. Blah, I don't know. None of this makes much sense. It's a lot easier to assume that Super Saiyan is just not a 50x increase at this point and Kiri works the same as BP, just for stronger dudes.

I dunno about you, but I assume you have that statement backwards. It's easier to assume that the relation isn't linear and conversions between the two systems are impossible, at least without some complex formula that we'll never know because Toriyama just didn't care. We are told Super Saiyan is a 50x increase, and attempting to explain that it isn't or that it somehow decreases is when you start making things harder than they need to be...

Option #1 - It works the same as Battle Powers but for way stronger people.
Option #2 - It works completely different from the previously used Battle Powers for no reason. Someone who is 3,000 Kiri is 50x stronger than someone is at least 800 Kiri, because outside of Freeza's gang, the other bad guys in the universe like to use extremely complicated scales for measuring power, again, for no reason.

Well, the 3000 reading was from when he was just standing around and glowing. Not from when he powered up to engorge Yakon.

He was just trying to keep Super Saiyan up, not become more powerful until he went Super Saiyan 2 for a sec.

/\This, why is it so hard to believe that he was just suppressing his ki?

We don't know if you can hide Ki from a Kiri measurement thingy like you can with a Scouter and while I'm not sure as to the accuracy of Dabra's power according to the anime but that would make Goku and Vegeta at full 50x base around 40,000 Kiri, and then Gohan would have to be sub 4,000 Kiri... If Goku is indeed suppressing his power here.

I look as SSJ as a 50x boost, and MSSJ as a 4x boost...

But Full-Power Super Saiyan was never stated to increase the person's power, only to make it more natural and conserve ki.

Goku's power does increase wildly after his Full-Power Super Saiyan training. Though I doubt that's because it's multiplying his fighting ability by a bigger number, it's just that he's increased his underlying strength by doing it.

[Kaboom]

Well, the 3000 reading was from when he was just standing around and glowing. Not from when he powered up to engorge Yakon.

He was just trying to keep Super Saiyan up, not become more powerful until he went Super Saiyan 2 for a sec.

No, I mean the first time around, before Yakon sucked in his Ki and caused him to revert back to base form. That's when they took the 3000 Kiri reading, when all he was doing was showing, and telling, that he could make his own light.

[beast mode]

Well, the 3000 reading was from when he was just standing around and glowing. Not from when he powered up to engorge Yakon.

He was just trying to keep Super Saiyan up, not become more powerful until he went Super Saiyan 2 for a sec.

No, I mean the first time around, before Yakon sucked in his Ki and caused him to revert back to base form. That's when they took the 3000 Kiri reading, when all he was doing was showing, and telling, that he could make his own light.

Then it seems that the stream of light energy sucked up after that is all of the same amount, until Goku goes Super Saiyan 2.

[p123]

Goku's True SSJ Power > Dabura > 3000 Killi > Goku's Base Power > Yakkon ( 800 )


Goku is suppressed when he is read at 3,000 killi. Why? Logical reasoning.

Badibi is concerned with Goku's Burst, not the 3,000 killi. Dabura assures Badibi he will not be defeated, once again, the cause was the burst, which was not read, since the killi meter, which is Badibi's strongest one, cannot read much higher than 3,000.


So, Dabura enters the scene, and thinks he can take all three at once. Logically, he must assume all three of them have powers similar to 3,000 killi.


So Dabura thinks he can defeat 3 powers of 3,000 killi. Which puts him above 3,000 by a good margin. Yet, later we see Dabura is only a bit superior to SSJ Teen Gohan, who SSJ Goku/Vegeta are stated to be stronger than.





I don't think in the Cell Games there's any way to determine how strong Base Power is in relation to MSSJ. So sure, in the Cell Saga, you are right, MSSJ is more about what you are talking about. The indications of the relation of Base/SSJ aren't implied until the Buu Saga, and honestly, probably never thought about until the Buu Saga. The implications of Base Power in the Buu Saga, take us for a wild ride in comparison to what we have always felt about it.


I feel there are 3 varying boosts for various forms of Super Saiyan IMO...


Regular Super Saiyan - 50x boost

Semi Mastered SSJ ( Vegeta/Trunks Rosat1/2 ) = 25x boost

MSSJ = 4x boost



Remember, it's more about base catching up to SSJ, than Base multiplying the power. Semi MSSJ, and MSSJ, warrant the user to use a power many times greater than what a regular SSJ is capable of...


So something of this nature...


This is what I use....


1) Mastered Super Saiyan
2) Semi Mastered Super Saiyan ( Top Tier )
3) Base ( MSSJ )
4) Semi MSSJ ( Bottom Tier )
5) Regular SSJ ( Top Tier )
6) Base SMSSJ ( Top Tier )
7) Initial SSJ ( Bottom Tier )
Base SMSSJ ( Bottom Tier )
9) Base ( SSJ )



I don't know if that looks really complicated, but that's the power order that I view the 3 ranging SSJ and their accompanying base powers...

[dbgtFO]

All in all, Kanzentai explains why Toriyama chose the numbers he did for Super Saiyan Goku and Yakon:

Incidentally, the numbers given for Yakon and Goku, 800 and 3,000, are both commonly used in Japanese as a symbolic way of saying "an enormous amount", similar to the way the number 40 is used throughout the Christian Bible. For instance, the 800 temples of Kyoto are proverbial, as are the 8 million gods of Shinto (8 million being 800 man in Japanese, that is 800x10,000), while in Buddhism the phrase "3,000 worlds" signifies all of creation.

In other words, Toriyama was just trying to be clever in saying "these guys are really strong".

This.

[beast mode]

Goku's True SSJ Power > Dabura > 3000 Killi > Goku's Base Power > Yakkon ( 800 )


Goku is suppressed when he is read at 3,000 killi. Why? Logical reasoning.

Badibi is concerned with Goku's Burst, not the 3,000 killi. Dabura assures Badibi he will not be defeated, once again, the cause was the burst, which was not read, since the killi meter, which is Badibi's strongest one, cannot read much higher than 3,000.


So, Dabura enters the scene, and thinks he can take all three at once. Logically, he must assume all three of them have powers similar to 3,000 killi.


So Dabura thinks he can defeat 3 powers of 3,000 killi. Which puts him above 3,000 by a good margin. Yet, later we see Dabura is only a bit superior to SSJ Teen Gohan, who SSJ Goku/Vegeta are stated to be stronger than.

Dabra has seen that they like fighting one on one and even then fighting together is seemingly a lot less effective than it probably should be in Dragon Ball. So it's not like he's stronger than 9,000 Kiri or anything like that. He's also a sly motha who can turn people into stone.

Dabra > Goku (Super Saiyan) = Vegeta (Super Saiyan) = 3,000 Kiri > Dabra (wanting to stretch out his fight with Gohan so Majin Buu will be free as fast as possible) > Gohan (Super Saiyan)

I don't think in the Cell Games there's any way to determine how strong Base Power is in relation to MSSJ. So sure, in the Cell Saga, you are right, MSSJ is more about what you are talking about. The indications of the relation of Base/SSJ aren't implied until the Buu Saga, and honestly, probably never thought about until the Buu Saga. The implications of Base Power in the Buu Saga, take us for a wild ride in comparison to what we have always felt about it.


I feel there are 3 varying boosts for various forms of Super Saiyan IMO...


Regular Super Saiyan - 50x boost

Semi Mastered SSJ ( Vegeta/Trunks Rosat1/2 ) = 25x boost

MSSJ = 4x boost



Remember, it's more about base catching up to SSJ, than Base multiplying the power. Semi MSSJ, and MSSJ, warrant the user to use a power many times greater than what a regular SSJ is capable of...


So something of this nature...


This is what I use....


1) Mastered Super Saiyan
2) Semi Mastered Super Saiyan ( Top Tier )
3) Base ( MSSJ )
4) Semi MSSJ ( Bottom Tier )
5) Regular SSJ ( Top Tier )
6) Base SMSSJ ( Top Tier )
7) Initial SSJ ( Bottom Tier )
Base SMSSJ ( Bottom Tier )
9) Base ( SSJ )



I don't know if that looks really complicated, but that's the power order that I view the 3 ranging SSJ and their accompanying base powers...

Regular Super Saiyan is not shown to be exactly 50 times stronger.

Goku (Super Saiyan) (BP: probably over 80,000,000 or 160,000,000)
Freeza (100%) (BP: probably over 80,000,000 or 160,000,000)
Freeza (half his maximum power) (BP: probably over 40,000,000 or 80,000,000)
Goku (Kaio-ken x20) (BP: probably over 40,000,000 or 80,000,000)
Goku (Kaio-ken x10) (BP: probably over 20,000,000 or 40,000,000)
Goku = Freeza (final form) (BP: probably over 2,000,000 or 4,000,000)
Freeza (third form) (BP: probably over 1,500,000 or 2,000,000)
Freeza (second form) (BP: over 1,000,000)
Freeza (first form) (BP: over 430,000)

All we know for sure is that Goku, once becoming a Super Saiyan, is over 40 times more powerful than what he once was. We also cannot be certain that each time Goku powers up in the 'Super Saiyan' state that his power is being multiplied over 40 times. Vegeta's opinion was that Super Saiyan is not a technique that multiplied your power like Kaio-ken, but a complete state of being (your 1% and your 100% becoming much more than they previously were.) I think the only things he considers as transformations are Grade 2 and 3. It's possible that the new hair and eye color are only signifying that a Super Saiyan isn't fucking around anymore (like an aura or stones and shit flying everywhere.) However, by making yourself more comfortable while tapping into all of that power, you can access even more (Full-Power Super Saiyan.)

[dbgtFO]

Dabra > Goku (Super Saiyan) = Vegeta (Super Saiyan) = 3,000 Kiri > Dabra (wanting to stretch out his fight with Gohan so Majin Buu will be free as fast as possible) > Gohan (Super Saiyan)

Dabra was fighting all out, the idea that Majin Buu would receive more energy, if you don't outright kill them is completely fan made and contradicted by Babidi and Dabra:

Chapter: 449 (DBZ 255), P3.1
Context: talking about taking energy from Goku and co.
Babidi: “Hehhehheh…That’s why I summoned them here. I wonder if Pui-Pui’s finished all 3 off by now? ”

Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P1.4-6
Context: after Babidi says to send Yakon to Stage 2
Dabra: “Yakon!? You’re already going to use Yakon on Stage 2!?”
Babidi: “…We probably shouldn’t underestimate those Earthlings…They did Pui-Pui in before he could inflict any damage at all…”
Dabra: “…I see. But with Yakon as their opponent, they’re all be defeated instantly. I won’t get to have any fun.”

If it was more efficient to damage your opponent over time instead of killing them immediately don't you think Babidi or Dabra would have been more concerned with Yakon and Pui Pui being able to kill them instantly?

Regular Super Saiyan is not shown to be exactly 50 times stronger.
Freeza (first form) (BP: over 430,000)

We also cannot be certain that each time Goku powers up in the 'Super Saiyan' state that his power is being multiplied over 40 times

1. Freeza's first form had a BP of 530.000.
2. Daizenshuu 7 confirms that it does(50 times to be exact), so there is official backing for it.

[beast mode]

Dabra > Goku (Super Saiyan) = Vegeta (Super Saiyan) = 3,000 Kiri > Dabra (wanting to stretch out his fight with Gohan so Majin Buu will be free as fast as possible) > Gohan (Super Saiyan)

Dabra was fighting all out, the idea that Majin Buu would receive more energy, if you don't outright kill them is completely fan made and contradicted by Babidi and Dabra:

Chapter: 449 (DBZ 255), P3.1
Context: talking about taking energy from Goku and co.
Babidi: “Hehhehheh…That’s why I summoned them here. I wonder if Pui-Pui’s finished all 3 off by now? ”

Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P1.4-6
Context: after Babidi says to send Yakon to Stage 2
Dabra: “Yakon!? You’re already going to use Yakon on Stage 2!?”
Babidi: “…We probably shouldn’t underestimate those Earthlings…They did Pui-Pui in before he could inflict any damage at all…”
Dabra: “…I see. But with Yakon as their opponent, they’re all be defeated instantly. I won’t get to have any fun.”

If it was more efficient to damage your opponent over time instead of killing them immediately don't you think Babidi or Dabra would have been more concerned with Yakon and Pui Pui being able to kill them instantly?

You are contradicting yourself. If Dabra wants to have fun and doesn't consider them being defeated instantly as being fun, then why would he go all out, presumably killing all of them instantly?

Dabra > Goku (Super Saiyan) = Vegeta (Super Saiyan) = 3,000 Kiri > Dabra (wanting to have some fun, y'know like when Cell was fighting Goku evenly despite being much more powerful) > Gohan (Super Saiyan)

Regular Super Saiyan is not shown to be exactly 50 times stronger.
Freeza (first form) (BP: over 430,000)

We also cannot be certain that each time Goku powers up in the 'Super Saiyan' state that his power is being multiplied over 40 times

1. Freeza's first form had a BP of 530.000.
2. Daizenshuu 7 confirms that it does(50 times to be exact), so there is official backing for it.

1. I didn't see the quote of Freeza's BP being 530,000 in the Kanzentai BP guide, just the paragraph stating him to be over ten times stronger than Nail. Sorry about that.

Revised:

Goku (Super Saiyan) (probably even more than 84,800,000 or 169,600,000 or 508,800,000)
Freeza (100%) (BP: probably more than 84,800,000 or 169,600,000 or 508,800,000)
Freeza (half his maximum power) (BP: probably more than 42,400,000 or 84,800,000 or 254,400,000)
Goku (Kaio-ken x20) (BP: probably 42,400,000 or 84,800,000 or 254,400,000)
Goku (Kaio-ken x10) (BP: probably 21,200,000 or 42,400,000 or 127,200,000)
Goku = Freeza (final form) (BP: probably 2,120,000 (quadrupled 530,000 or added it on top of 1,590,000) or 4,240,000 (doubled 2,120,000) or 12,720,000 (quadrupled 3,180,000)
Freeza (third form) (BP: probably 1,590,000 (tripled 530,000 or added it on top of 1,060,000) or 2,120,000 (doubled 1,060,000) or 3,180,000 (tripled 1,060,000)
Freeza (second form) (BP: over 1,000,000) (BP: probably 1,060,000 (doubled 530,000 or added 530,000 on top of 530,000)
Freeza (first form) (BP: 530,000)

2. Data books are not infallible. If they state something that isn't shown in the Manga then they're just as correct as anything else. The GT: Perfect files are official too, right? Even more so, since they were published later. They state that 50x is one theory among others as to how much stronger one gets when becoming a Super Saiyan.