Goku's true boost in strength when becoming Super Saiyan?

[dbgtFO]

You are contradicting yourself. If Dabra wants to have fun and doesn't consider them being defeated instantly as being fun, then why would he go all out, presumably killing all of them instantly?

Dabra thought it was no fun having Yakon fight the group, because they would be instantly be killed by him, giving Dabra noone to fight. That's what the quote is about.
Dabra claimed(in viz):

Boo's shell will overflow with their energy before you know it.

So Dabra implies that he's going to kill them so quickly, that Babidi won't even notice it. So his intention was to kill them instantly.

2. Data books are not infallible. If they state something that isn't shown in the Manga then they're just as correct as anything else. The GT: Perfect files are official too, right? Even more so, since they were published later. They state that 50x is one theory among others as to how much stronger one gets when becoming a Super Saiyan.

I'm not saying that they are(everyone can make mistakes obviously), I'm stating that there IS official backing for it, so a guy who says it works that way, does have more backing than a fan's interpretation of the manga, if the manga does not contradict the guidebooks, which it in this case doesn't.

About Dabura and Gohan fight, I prefer to think that he was analyzing their potential, and hearing Vegeta's commentaries lead to his plan of Babidi taking over Vegeta's mind. This is what Dabura thinks about Gohan:

Dabra: “Naturally. I fought him a little bit before, after all. There’s no doubt that I can take care of trash like that.”

Dabra has his spit, which he also used in the actual fight, which IMO doesn't scream superiority.

I honestly just don't see any reason for why he would hold back against Gohan.

[hleV]

Goku ~ 1000

• seems to have an advantage against Yakon

SSJ Goku (suppressed) = 3000

• has full control of SSJ, which is suppresed because he only wants to brighten the environment
• Yakon has no problem absorbing that much light
• Dabra seems to be confident in beating such power

SSJ Goku = 50000 (1000 * 50)

• real SSJ Goku's power, if he had wanted to use it

SSJ2 Goku = 100000 (1000 * 50 * 2)

• goes SSJ2, which is full power SSJ (50000) * 2
• Yakon blows up

SSJ Gohan > 3000

• Dabra, who is confident in easily beating anyone with a power of 3000 only has a slight advantage

I see no flaws in this whatsoever.

[beast mode]

You are contradicting yourself. If Dabra wants to have fun and doesn't consider them being defeated instantly as being fun, then why would he go all out, presumably killing all of them instantly?

Dabra thought it was no fun having Yakon fight the group, because they would be instantly be killed by him, giving Dabra noone to fight. That's what the quote is about.
Dabra claimed(in viz):

Boo's shell will overflow with their energy before you know it.

So Dabra implies that he's going to kill them so quickly, that Babidi won't even notice it. So his intention was to kill them instantly.

Thanks for that quote.

So it's probably: Goku = Vegeta (Super Saiyan 2) > Gohan (Super Saiyan 2, Cell) > Gohan (Super Saiyan, Cell) > Goku = Vegeta (Super Saiyan, over 4,500 Kiri) > Dabra (around 4,500 Kiri) > Gohan (Super Saiyan, around 4,000 Kiri) > Goku (suppressed, 3,000 Kiri) > Yakon (800 Kiri) > Pui Pui

2. Data books are not infallible. If they state something that isn't shown in the Manga then they're just as correct as anything else. The GT: Perfect files are official too, right? Even more so, since they were published later. They state that 50x is one theory among others as to how much stronger one gets when becoming a Super Saiyan.

I'm not saying that they are(everyone can make mistakes obviously), I'm stating that there IS official backing for it, so a guy who says it works that way, does have more backing than a fan's interpretation of the manga, if the manga does not contradict the guidebooks, which it in this case doesn't.

GT: Perfect Files corrects it by saying that it's possible that it was a 50 times multiplication but is not certain, which also does not contradict the manga. So it's not a set in stone 50 times, just without a doubt over 40. Besides, the number is irrelevant, what matters is if he's multiplying his underlying power by something every time or only the first, with the Super Saiyan transformation then representing him using his full power (like all the crazy weather and things that happen when one powers up.)

[dbgtFO]

GT: Perfect Files corrects it by saying that it's possible that it was a 50 times multiplication but is not certain, which also does not contradict the manga. So it's not a set in stone 50 times, just without a doubt over 40. Besides, the number is irrelevant, what matters is if he's multiplying his underlying power by something every time or only the first, with the Super Saiyan transformation then representing him using his full power (like all the crazy weather and things that happen when one powers up.)

Don't the GT: Perfect Files books only apply to the anime chronology and GT?

[beast mode]

Goku ~ 1000

• seems to have an advantage against Yakon We don't know if his transformation added any strength or just lit up the room.

SSJ Goku (suppressed) = 3000

• has full control of SSJ, which is suppresed because he only wants to brighten the environment
• Yakon has no problem absorbing that much light
• Dabra seems to be confident in beating such power

SSJ Goku = 50000 (1000 * 50) Gohan became over 10 times less powerful over the years? Yikes!

• real SSJ Goku's power, if he had wanted to use it

SSJ2 Goku = 100000 (1000 * 50 * 2)

• goes SSJ2, which is full power SSJ (50000) * 2
• Yakon blows up

SSJ Gohan > 3000

• Dabra, who is confident in easily beating anyone with a power of 3000 only has a slight advantage

I see no flaws in this whatsoever.

GT: Perfect Files corrects it by saying that it's possible that it was a 50 times multiplication but is not certain, which also does not contradict the manga. So it's not a set in stone 50 times, just without a doubt over 40. Besides, the number is irrelevant, what matters is if he's multiplying his underlying power by something every time or only the first, with the Super Saiyan transformation then representing him using his full power (like all the crazy weather and things that happen when one powers up.)

Don't the GT: Perfect Files books only apply to the anime chronology and GT?

Super Saiyan is without a doubt 50x in terms of the manga, but could be something different when talking about the anime? We've already gone over Toriyama not really giving a damn, drawing the story as if Super Saiyan is 10x while thinking those data book guys are whack for making out Super Saiyan as 50x (even though it'd have to be (at least temporarily) for Goku to beat Freeza.)

[Kaboom]

I like hlev's idea.

[jackjack]

Personally, I like 5000 = Goku's full power.

So yeah, while I believe a powered up Goku is far from 100%, I just don't see how 3000 is his heavily suppressed level when he has an aura.

[beast mode]

I like hlev's idea.

I really doubt that Gohan is over 12.5 times weaker than his old self.

Personally, I like 5000 = Goku's full power.

So yeah, while I believe a powered up Goku is far from 100%, I just don't see how 3000 is his heavily suppressed level when he has an aura.

Auras have no real quantifiable effect on how much power someone is unleashing. Freeza had one in his first form which is how many times weaker than full power?

[dbgtFO]

I like hlev's idea.

I really doubt that Gohan is over 12.5 times weaker than his old self.

When did hlev state that Gohan was that weak?
He was focusing on Goku's power, not Gohan's and so wasn't being specific about how high Gohan and Dabra's kiri level were, just that it would be over 3000.

[Kaboom]

I like hlev's idea.

I really doubt that Gohan is over 12.5 times weaker than his old self.

Not that part, and I don't think he meant that totally seriously either. More about how Goku just wasn't using full power, and only meant to light up the room.

[jackjack]

Auras have no real quantifiable effect on how much power someone is unleashing.

Of course they do. Having one means you're powered up/not heavily suppressed. When Goku powers up to 50% in the Cell arc, guess what?

Freeza had one in his first form which is how many times weaker than full power?

Which only furthers my point, considering the fact that Freeza had one when he was powering up to 100% in his first form.

[beast mode]

Auras have no real quantifiable effect on how much power someone is unleashing.

Of course they do. Having one means you're powered up/not heavily suppressed. When Goku powers up to 50% in the Cell arc, guess what?

Freeza had one in his first form which is how many times weaker than full power?

Which only furthers my point, considering the fact that Freeza had one when he was powering up to 100% in his first form.

If the Daizenshuu's figure of Freeza having a BP of 120,000,000 is correct then his first form should be 226 times suppressed. Meaning that if Goku's aura was caused by him using 3,000 Kiri of Ki then his max power could go up to possibly 679,245 Kiri.

[jackjack]

You treat each transformation as a completely different state from the previous one, bro. Cell, for instance, has a suppressed and a powered up (with an aura) level for each form.

[beast mode]

I still don't think it's stated anywhere that an aura effect means someone can't be suppressing their power. It's just a common side effect of powering up.

I like hlev's idea.

I really doubt that Gohan is over 12.5 times weaker than his old self.

When did hlev state that Gohan was that weak?
He was focusing on Goku's power, not Gohan's and so wasn't being specific about how high Gohan and Dabra's kiri level were, just that it would be over 3000.

I meant that if Dabra is between 4,000 Kiri and 5,000 Kiri as stated in the anime, then Gohan can't be 5,000 Kiri. Gohan (Cell) > 50,000 Kiri > 5,000 Kiri > Dabra > Gohan (probably 4,000 Kiri.)

[jackjack]

Sure, it isn't stated, but then again, you rarely gonna find statements on auras, man. It just seems that way to me, much like sparks = SSJ2.

[dbgtFO]

I meant that if Dabra is between 4,000 Kiri and 5,000 Kiri as stated in the anime, then Gohan can't be 5,000 Kiri. Gohan (Cell) > 50,000 Kiri > 5,000 Kiri > Dabra > Gohan (probably 4,000 Kiri.)

From the looks of it, hlev wasn't taking the anime's lines into consideration
If he was, he probably would have stated it.

But what do I know, we can only wait and see...

[hleV]

So yeah, while I believe a powered up Goku is far from 100%, I just don't see how 3000 is his heavily suppressed level when he has an aura.

Have you ever seen a SSJ transformation without aura? Aura just shows that the user emits energy from their body. In Goku's case to brighten everything up. You just underestimate his ability to control the SSJ form IMHO.

If anyone cares, I personally think that aura simply gives you more power at your current state. If you're at 1000 Kiri, with aura you're at 1500 (just an example). If you power up to 5000, you're at 7500 with aura, etc.

[jackjack]

Have you ever seen a SSJ transformation without aura? Aura just shows that the user emits energy from their body.

Are you implying that lacking aura shows the user isn't emitting energy?

In Goku's case to brighten everything up. You just underestimate his ability to control the SSJ form IMHO.

And he can't do that while heavily suppressed, imo.

[Bussani]

Option #2 - It works completely different from the previously used Battle Powers for no reason. Someone who is 3,000 Kiri is 50x stronger than someone is at least 800 Kiri, because outside of Freeza's gang, the other bad guys in the universe like to use extremely complicated scales for measuring power, again, for no reason.

The thing is, it's not complicated at all. There are tons of examples of different scales like that in real life. Try comparing kelvin to fahrenheit, or just take a quick look at decibels or the richter scale. You keep saying "for no reason," but what reason would there be for the two systems to be directly compatible when they likely never came across each other? And if it's meant to be used for much more powerful people, making it a logarithmic scale makes a lot of sense.

[beast mode]

My problem is that Toriyama chose 3,000 and 800 just because they make Goku and Yakon sound like strong guys. So the only significance in comparing these numbers is whatever we decide or think is most likely.

It's not that I want them to be compatible in some easy way with BPs, I just don't want Goku's real Super Saiyan strength coming out as 50,000 vs. Gohan's >4,000 or 3,000 being 50x stronger than 800. Just makes things messy in my mind. It's a lot easier if we can just agree at least on something like this:

Goku (probably not 150,000-40,000)
Vegeta
Dabra (under 5,000, higher than 4,000)
Gohan (lower than Dabra, higher than 3,000)
Goku (3,000)
Yakon (800)