Goku's true boost in strength when becoming Super Saiyan?

[jackjack]

Again, Toriyama don't work like that. It's not so uncommon for fans assume that Toriyama tought of Super Saiyan transformation as something like this:

Attacking the straw man must be fun, I guess...

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

It's an exaggeration, but there's some truth in there.

[Savage68]

Again, Toriyama don't work like that. It's not so uncommon for fans assume that Toriyama tought of Super Saiyan transformation as something like this:

That's exactly what's been going here.

[jackjack]

Not sure what does that have anything to do with this:

When Gohan completes his training and becomes mystic or ultimate or whatever he's told to try becoming Super Saiyan and the whole point of that exercise was to bring out power he had within him, not multiply what he's already got.

See, the guy even got frustrated because people didn't seem to comprehend what he was trying to get across.

Aaaagghhhh!!! I wasn't saying that I think Super Saiyan is a ten times multiplication. I was just showing that there is at least one source that says it's not a set-in-stone fifty times multiplication that works like Kaio-ken as stated in guide books (from a fairly important source, too.)

[Bussani]

I was just showing that there is at least one source that says it's not a set-in-stone fifty times multiplication that works like Kaio-ken as stated in guide books (from a fairly important source, too.)

That's not quite what he said though, is it? What he said was that he originally had it in mind that Goku would have been ten times stronger than he had been, but it later became established that it was fifty times. He didn't say anything about it being a set in stone multiplier or anything along those lines.

When Gohan completes his training and becomes mystic or ultimate or whatever he's told to try becoming Super Saiyan and the whole point of that exercise was to bring out power he had within him, not multiply what he's already got.

I can see what you're getting at here, but I think you might be taking the idea of it being a "multiplier" too literally. Why can't it be hidden power that increases your power fifty fold? You might ask why it would always just happen to be fifty, and that's a pretty valid question, but take a look at Oozaru. Back in the Daimao arc it's implied that the strength of Oozaru was a hidden power within Goku, and the Super God Water may have tapped into and released some of that power. But Vegeta outright says later in the manga that Oozaru are ten times more powerful than a Saiyan's "human" form, so it seems like both to me.

Toriyama just seems to like simple multipliers, if you ask me.

[dbgtFO]

See, the guy even got frustrated because people didn't seem to comprehend what he was trying to get across.

Aaaagghhhh!!! I wasn't saying that I think Super Saiyan is a ten times multiplication. I was just showing that there is at least one source that says it's not a set-in-stone fifty times multiplication that works like Kaio-ken as stated in guide books (from a fairly important source, too.)

That quote was a reply to this:

Also, I thought that interview with Akira Toriyama where he says in his opinion it was more like ten times, that fifty times is a bit silly, is indeed a source that has something to mention on the matter.

Seriously bro, are you not getting, what has been explained to you several times in this thread?
Toriyama doesn't like it, but that doesn't mean that SSJ isn't 50 times stronger than normal form.
If it did, the SEG entry in the very same book would be pointless, if the freaking Author says it works differently.

I never once said anything about beast mode thinking it was a 10 times multiplication or whatever he thought I meant.

I pointed out that even though Toriyama considers it ridiculous or whatever, it doesn't change the fact, that the very same book list SSJ as increasing your normal form's BP by a factor of 50, which would be stupid, if the author himself disagrees with it working that way in-universe.

I can personally buy beast mode's idea, that SSJ doesn't create strength similar to Kaio-ken, but that it brings/draws out your true power that you had all along through transforming similar to Freeza's forms and stuff, but still ends up 50 times stronger than normally just because.

EDIT: See what Bussani said for a good explanation.

Also about FPSSJ:
Goku was weaker than Gohan at the Cell Games, but his SSJ 2 ends up stronger than Gohan's SSJ 2, which it wouldn't, if Goku can't get stronger in SSJ, if his SSJ is weaker than Gohan's and if there's a definite SSJ 2 strength multiplier(which there officially is).

The SEG only says that SSJ 2 is twice the strength of SSJ, never mentions a FPSSJ 2 or anything of that sort and logically it would lose its purpose, if they weren't referring to the boost every SSJ 2 gets or Goku at his strongest SSJ 2.

Gohan is the only one confirmed to get differing boosts because of his anger management issues, so Goku shouldn't get over 2 times stronger, yet the SSJ limit idea has to have Goku over that:

Goku FP Super Saiyan: 3,000
Gohan Super Saiyan(D2 never says he's Full Power ): 3,500
Gohan SSJ 2: 7,000
-enraged whatever: 10,500
Goku SSJ 2: 6,000 - which of course is wrong
Goku actual SSJ 2: 11,000 - so Goku gets over 3 times as strong as normal, even though he should only get twice as strong.

What's your thoughts on this jackjack & beast mode? Do you have differeing boosts for SSJ 2 or what?

[jackjack]

Goku SSJ 2: 6,000 - think of this as Namek Goku
Goku actual SSJ 2: 11,000 - think of this as Yardrat Goku or post-3 yr training

[hleV]

Goku and Gohan did reach the limit of SSJ forms, that is they completely mastered it. Later Goku is shown to train in his base form, which pressumably gets him stronger, especially when transformed. I don't really remember seeing anyone train as a SSJ (Goku transforming into SSJ in order to hold 40-ton weights wasn't really for training purposes IMHO) when it was not about mastering the form.

Also I'm pretty sure Gohan's SSJ2 form was way more powerful than his initial FPSSJ x2 because of the rage boost he unleashed which helped him transform. Even if SSJ2 form didn't exist, I'm pretty sure (so was Goku) that Gohan could have defeated Cell as a FPSSJ with rage boost. So it's pretty possible (by my theory) that SSJ2 (which doubles SSJ's strength) Gohan was more than twice as powerful as Cell (and nothing contradicts that).

[Kaboom]

Note that Toriyama never outright disagreed with it or said anything like, "that's not how I wrote my story, damnit! Don't believe the figures printed in this very same book!" I exaggerate a bit for attempted humor, of course. But If I recall correctly, his comment was something more like, "I had originally thought it to be something like 10x, but it ended up as more like 50x instead, so oh well." That said, it's not some sort of contradiction or recantation, but an acceptance. No different really from him saying, "at first I wanted Androids 19 and 20 to be the main villains, but it ended up being Cell instead, so oh well."

Anyhoo, I don't buy into the whole, "absolute limits: you hit them and that's it" idea. For anything, really. It just seems so counterintuitive to the story's themes of "never give up" and "you can always get better" and "friendship, effort, victory" and so forth.

If base forms can't increase in power anymore, then there'd be no point in anyone training in them, which we do see from time to time. Since the Super Saiyan forms are multipliers, then they increase in power along with the base form. There's a reciprocal relationship behind them. An increase of 2 points in base instantly becomes an increase of 100 points with Super Saiyan. That's the big benefit to transforming, and it becomes even more potent with higher forms which boost your power even more.

There will always be slowdowns and roadblocks, and eventually any given method of training which was super-beneficial at one point really won't cut it anymore once you become accustomed to it. Thus you'll hit your "limit," and your growth will slow to a crawl (but not necessarily hit an absolute dead end) until you find something better (that's also how it works in, you know, real life). Whether it be a better training method, a new and better form to train in, a better sparring partner, etc.

[p123]

That is funny stuff Jack Jack... Nice formula.. Lol..

[Piccolo Daimao]

But why would Dabra mention that he could sense three of them had great power if he already knew from Bobbodi's kiri meter?

If this is the quote you are referring to...

Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.1-3
Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co.
Dabra: “Seems they’re trying to hide from us…In total…there are 7. We can’t use Kaioshin and Kibito’s energy…But 3 of them seem to have marvelous energy…”
Babidi: “Looks like it. It seems that we’ll get more than enough energy from just those 3…Kuhihihi…To think that we’d be able to revive Majin Boo so quickly…”

He doesn't actually say he is sensing them right then and there, it could be predetermined knowledge which is only provided clarity for the sake of the reader in what is yet to come.

Yeah, perhaps.

Not to mention Toriyama says he drew it with the sense that it was ten times greater than what Goku's strength had been "up until then", and Goku had been using the Kaio-ken up until then, so...My guess is Toriyama got confused and thought that the "x50" thing referred to Goku being 50 times stronger than when he was using Kaio-ken x10/20, which would be pretty out there.

Or, again, his memory.

Vegeta outright says later in the manga that Oozaru are ten times more powerful than a Saiyan's "human" form.

Talking of which...not denying a clearly stated multiplier, but Jheese says that no Saiyan's ever gotten near 60,000, when both Nappa and Vegeta on Earth could boost up to that level and further just by going Ozaru. Now, obviously, Toriyama never thought about it this much and/or was probably just thinking of base Saiyans (since Ozaru didn't even matter now that no-one had their tails anymore), but even though you could make the argument that Jheese didn't necessarily know Nappa or Vegeta's power on Earth, knowing what we know...well, that's just what I wanted to point out. My little thought on the subject.

If base forms can't increase in power anymore, then there'd be no point in anyone training in them, which we do see from time to time. Since the Super Saiyan forms are multipliers, then they increase in power along with the base form. There's a reciprocal relationship behind them. An increase of 2 points in base instantly becomes an increase of 100 points with Super Saiyan. That's the big benefit to transforming, and it becomes even more potent with higher forms which boost your power even more.

Yeah, although Kaioshin isn't trusted a lot in these discussions when it comes to ki-sensing, he says that if Gohan is this powerful after training with the Z-Sword, then he'll be even stronger as a Super Saiyan.

Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P5.2-4
Context: after the Z Sword breaks
Gohan: “But…thanks to that, my arm strength has increased a lot. That Z Sword was incredibly heavy, after all…Perhaps this was what they meant by me obtaining the greatest power in the world.”
Kaioshin: “I-I get it…If he’s acquired that much power in his regular state, then if he becomes a Super Saiyan it will become an even more substantial power-up…! Ye-yeah! That’s it! That’s definitely the greatest power in the world…!”
Goku: “…But…Is he greater than Majin Boo?...I wonder…”

[dbgtFO]

Yeah, although Kaioshin isn't trusted a lot in these discussions when it comes to ki-sensing, he says that if Gohan is this powerful after training with the Z-Sword, then he'll be even stronger as a Super Saiyan.

Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P5.2-4
Context: after the Z Sword breaks
Gohan: “But…thanks to that, my arm strength has increased a lot. That Z Sword was incredibly heavy, after all…Perhaps this was what they meant by me obtaining the greatest power in the world.”
Kaioshin: “I-I get it…If he’s acquired that much power in his regular state, then if he becomes a Super Saiyan it will become an even more substantial power-up…! Ye-yeah! That’s it! That’s definitely the greatest power in the world…!”
Goku: “…But…Is he greater than Majin Boo?...I wonder…”

In this case noone contradicted the good ol' Kaioshin and we're talking people who should know better than anyone what SSJ does to you ie. Goku and Gohan, so there's no reason to think Kaioshin is talking out of his ass regarding the bolded quote.

[beast mode]

When Gohan completes his training and becomes mystic or ultimate or whatever he's told to try becoming Super Saiyan and the whole point of that exercise was to bring out power he had within him, not multiply what he's already got.

I can see what you're getting at here, but I think you might be taking the idea of it being a "multiplier" too literally. Why can't it be hidden power that increases your power fifty fold? You might ask why it would always just happen to be fifty, and that's a pretty valid question, but take a look at Oozaru. Back in the Daimao arc it's implied that the strength of Oozaru was a hidden power within Goku, and the Super God Water may have tapped into and released some of that power. But Vegeta outright says later in the manga that Oozaru are ten times more powerful than a Saiyan's "human" form, so it seems like both to me.

Toriyama just seems to like simple multipliers, if you ask me.

Or Oozaru works the same way. It's a Saiyan exclusive transformation, too.

Also about FPSSJ:
Goku was weaker than Gohan at the Cell Games, but his SSJ 2 ends up stronger than Gohan's SSJ 2, which it wouldn't, if Goku can't get stronger in SSJ, if his SSJ is weaker than Gohan's and if there's a definite SSJ 2 strength multiplier(which there officially is).

The SEG only says that SSJ 2 is twice the strength of SSJ, never mentions a FPSSJ 2 or anything of that sort and logically it would lose its purpose, if they weren't referring to the boost every SSJ 2 gets or Goku at his strongest SSJ 2.

Gohan is the only one confirmed to get differing boosts because of his anger management issues, so Goku shouldn't get over 2 times stronger, yet the SSJ limit idea has to have Goku over that:

Goku FP Super Saiyan: 3,000
Gohan Super Saiyan(D2 never says he's Full Power ): 3,500
Gohan SSJ 2: 7,000
-enraged whatever: 10,500
Goku SSJ 2: 6,000 - which of course is wrong
Goku actual SSJ 2: 11,000 - so Goku gets over 3 times as strong as normal, even though he should only get twice as strong.

What's your thoughts on this jackjack & beast mode? Do you have differeing boosts for SSJ 2 or what?

I think Super Saiyan 2 works the same way as Super Saiyan 1. Goku (Super Saiyan 2, when first attaining the form) < Gohan (Super Saiyan 2, against Cell.) Goku is stronger than Gohan when in Super Saiyan 2 is because he's already attained Super Saiyan 3, meaning he's using the absolute maximum of power he can achieve while in that form, where as Gohan was using his minimum. I try not to bother with multipliers after Freeza. I mean half strength Full-Power Super Saiyan Goku being stronger than Super Saiyan Grade 2 Vegeta (RoSaT trip #1) just wrecks everything.

Lowest one is strongest (duh):

Goku (Full-Power Super Saiyan)
Gohan (Full-Power Super Saiyan)
Goku (Super Saiyan 2, at the time of first transforming)
Gohan (Super Saiyan 2)
Vegeta (Mid-Super Saiyan 2 limit, like he was in Super Saiyan 1 against No. 19 and 18) (against Pure Buu, pre Babidi Magic)
Gohan (Mid-Super Saiyan 2 limit) (attainable if he kept training after Cell)
Goku (Full-Power Super Saiyan 2) = 'Majin' Vegeta (Super Saiyan 2)
Gohan (Full-Power Super Saiyan 2) (attainable if he kept training after Cell)

Goku and Gohan did reach the limit of SSJ forms, that is they completely mastered it. Later Goku is shown to train in his base form, which pressumably gets him stronger, especially when transformed. I don't really remember seeing anyone train as a SSJ (Goku transforming into SSJ in order to hold 40-ton weights wasn't really for training purposes IMHO) when it was not about mastering the form.

Also I'm pretty sure Gohan's SSJ2 form was way more powerful than his initial FPSSJ x2 because of the rage boost he unleashed which helped him transform. Even if SSJ2 form didn't exist, I'm pretty sure (so was Goku) that Gohan could have defeated Cell as a FPSSJ with rage boost. So it's pretty possible (by my theory) that SSJ2 (which doubles SSJ's strength) Gohan was more than twice as powerful as Cell (and nothing contradicts that).

Or base training still only adds to your maximum strength (Super Saiyan/2/3/whatever.)

Vegeta outright says later in the manga that Oozaru are ten times more powerful than a Saiyan's "human" form.

Talking of which...not denying a clearly stated multiplier, but Jheese says that no Saiyan's ever gotten near 60,000, when both Nappa and Vegeta on Earth could boost up to that level and further just by going Ozaru. Now, obviously, Toriyama never thought about it this much and/or was probably just thinking of base Saiyans (since Ozaru didn't even matter now that no-one had their tails anymore), but even though you could make the argument that Jheese didn't necessarily know Nappa or Vegeta's power on Earth, knowing what we know...well, that's just what I wanted to point out. My little thought on the subject.

Nappa would be 40,000. King Vegeta would probably be between Vegeta and Nappa so he could be 50,000 transformed. Vegeta's strength in Oozaru may not be well-known throughout Freeza's gang.

Yeah, although Kaioshin isn't trusted a lot in these discussions when it comes to ki-sensing, he says that if Gohan is this powerful after training with the Z-Sword, then he'll be even stronger as a Super Saiyan.

Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P5.2-4
Context: after the Z Sword breaks
Gohan: “But…thanks to that, my arm strength has increased a lot. That Z Sword was incredibly heavy, after all…Perhaps this was what they meant by me obtaining the greatest power in the world.”
Kaioshin: “I-I get it…If he’s acquired that much power in his regular state, then if he becomes a Super Saiyan it will become an even more substantial power-up…! Ye-yeah! That’s it! That’s definitely the greatest power in the world…!”
Goku: “…But…Is he greater than Majin Boo?...I wonder…”

This quote probably just sunk my previous post on the matter. I don't know, I guess Piccolo also didn't train over the years so he is weaker than normal Gohan.

[Piccolo Daimao]

There's no evidence that Piccolo didn't train in the 7 years after the Cell Games. I don't get why people say this. So just because the Earthlings, for all intents and purposes, retired from martial artists and Piccolo didn't fight means Piccolo slacked off? I can see reason for Kuririn, since he'd stopped shaving his head, a martial arts discipline he had upheld until then, and settled down with a family like he always wanted (well, a wife, but you know what I mean), and I suppose there may be reason to assume Yamcha didn't either. But Piccolo? I don't think so.

[beast mode]

There's no evidence that Piccolo didn't train in the 7 years after the Cell Games. I don't get why people say this. So just because the Earthlings, for all intents and purposes, retired from martial artists and Piccolo didn't fight means Piccolo slacked off? I can see reason for Kuririn, since he'd stopped shaving his head, a martial arts discipline he had upheld until then, and settled down with a family like he always wanted (well, a wife, but you know what I mean), and I suppose there may be reason to assume Yamcha didn't either. But Piccolo? I don't think so.

We can't know for certain but Gohan (normal) > Piccolo in Dabra's eyes is certainly evidence for it. Piccolo may not be interested in training and such after reuniting with Kami, but then again they were a martial artist before splitting, so who knows. He also didn't have an enemy during those years (Goku -> Saiyans -> Freeza -> Artificial Humans -> Cell -> no one.)

[Piccolo Daimao]

There's no evidence that Piccolo didn't train in the 7 years after the Cell Games. I don't get why people say this. So just because the Earthlings, for all intents and purposes, retired from martial artists and Piccolo didn't fight means Piccolo slacked off? I can see reason for Kuririn, since he'd stopped shaving his head, a martial arts discipline he had upheld until then, and settled down with a family like he always wanted (well, a wife, but you know what I mean), and I suppose there may be reason to assume Yamcha didn't either. But Piccolo? I don't think so.

We can't know for certain but Gohan (normal) > Piccolo in Dabra's eyes is certainly evidence for it. Piccolo may not be interested in training and such after reuniting with Kami, but then again they were a martial artist before splitting, so who knows. He also didn't have an enemy during those years (Goku -> Saiyans -> Freeza -> Artificial Humans -> Cell -> no one.)

Well, I don't believe base Gohan is stronger than Piccolo in Dabra's eyes. I think he was either using some magical demonic power or it was just experience/instinct (like how Kuririn could tell the Namekians were suppressing their power) to sense the hidden power within Goku, Gohan, Vegeta (even though everyone were suppressed), that power being Super Saiyan. But obviously he didn't sense the full extent of their hidden power, since he still believed Pui Pui and Yakon could kill them.

[Bussani]

Or Oozaru works the same way. It's a Saiyan exclusive transformation, too.

Sorry, the same way as what?

[beast mode]

Or Oozaru works the same way. It's a Saiyan exclusive transformation, too.

Sorry, the same way as what?

The same as Super Saiyan. Super Saiyan being Ki that you possess that's inaccessible unless you transform. Kaio-ken multiplies your strength, creating strength that didn't exist within you before.

Here's some really fucked stupid nonsense analogy:

Base: Using 1 finger.
Super Saiyan: Using all ten fingers.
Kaio-ken: Growing new fingers momentarily.

[Senzu_Bean]

What Super Saiyan do is exactly the same Zarbon did when he transformed. They are essentially physical transformations to sustain more power. Think in Freeza's case but backwards. It is exactly the same.

And neither Dabra or Babidi can sense ki so using that scene as evidence for anything doesn't work.

[Godo]

Maybe Dabra's sensing was based on some kind of rough estimate of the Saiya-jins' powers? That scene is really confusing in my mind, since it either means that:
a) The Saiya-jins got stronger than at least semi-perfect Cell in base or
b) Dabra sensed a certain fierce power that the Saiya-jins possessed (or some kind of wavelength) or
c) Piccolo had gotten much, much weaker

Everyone were suppressed, after all.

But Toriyama probably made it that way to get rid of Piccolo (who really couldn't take any damage since he could regenerate, I believe) and Kuririn to make way for the Saiya-jins, Vegeta's possession by Babidi, and making it clear that Gohan had become weaker/rusty.
I bet that if Piccolo were there, he would have made some pretty drastic choices to better the situation (remember; he blasted the ROSAT, and killed Babidi in the same arc). If he was in Babidi's ship, things would become ugly.