Suppose Goku hadn't been the one to fight Yakkon

[Piccolo Daimao]

Talking of which, I wonder why Vegeta said that Kibito was incompetent for being killed by Dabra, when he's around Cell's level.

That's because "around Cell's level" means as strong as Cell in egg form.

Seriously I don't know. It seems that even though Dabra flew incredibly fast, a base Saiyajin should have been able to react before he reached them, similar to how you can evade a car coming straight at you without actually being faster, than the car.
Or maybe Vegeta just referred to Dabra spending so much time to charge his beam, giving anyone enough time to react or something...

In the manga, Dabra doesn't charge up his attack; he just flies at them, stops in front of Kibito and blasts him before he has time to react.

But whatever, this is a minor thing. Vegeta was probably just being a bastard.

[dbgtFO]

In the manga, Dabra doesn't charge up his attack; he just flies at them, stops in front of Kibito and blasts him before he has time to react.

But whatever, this is a minor thing. Vegeta was probably just being a bastard.

It always seemed to me, that Kibito was too shocked to react explaining his facial expression before Dabra does the attack, so Vegeta would base it off of that or the other example.

But you're right it's not like it matters anyways.

[Senzu_Bean]

Dabra: “Seems they’re trying to hide from us…In total…there are 7. We can’t use Kaioshin and Kibito’s energy…But 3 of them seem to have marvelous energy…”

Well, sounds for me that Kaioshin and Kibito energies don't serve for them.

Take a look at the conversation between Dabra and Bobbidi just before (maybe after?) that line.

They clearly say Kaioshin and Kibito can't be used because they won't enter in the ship.

Even after being aware of Kaioshin's presence within the ship, the Saiyans' energy are still the only ones stated as being desired.

Of course. It isn't like Kaioshin is going to fight or something.

But for that idea to work, they would have been incapable of gauging Dabura's strength as well.

They never commented on Bobbidi's minions ki. Not even once! After all Goku has to guesses Dabra's power by his fight with Gohan and not his ki output, and Kaioshin wouldn't be so afraid of Pui Pui and Yakon if he could sense them.

[Fox666]

That's because "around Cell's level" means as strong as Cell in egg form.

Seriously I don't know. It seems that even though Dabra flew incredibly fast, a base Saiyajin should have been able to react before he reached them, similar to how you can evade a car coming straight at you without actually being faster, than the car.
Or maybe Vegeta just referred to Dabra spending so much time to charge his beam, giving anyone enough time to react or something...

I suppose that the saiyans can turn Super Saiyan with easy, so it shouldn't be taken in account only their base power.

Yeah, I know. The quote also clearly says that it's life and not only ki, but I still think, that they just don't emit ki at all.

As I said before, Piccolo and others could feel Majin Vegeta's Ki, so they emit Ki

They never commented on Bobbidi's minions ki. Not even once! After all Goku has to guesses Dabra's power by his fight with Gohan and not his ki output, and Kaioshin wouldn't be so afraid of Pui Pui and Yakon if he could sense them.

I suppose they are surpressing their Ki at most of time, so they can't judge them based on it

[Son_Gohan]

Of course. It isn't like Kaioshin is going to fight or something.

He wouldn't have to do anything, damaging and inevitably killing him for his energy does not require his co-operation at that point.

They never commented on Bobbidi's minions ki. Not even once! After all Goku has to guesses Dabra's power by his fight with Gohan and not his ki output, and Kaioshin wouldn't be so afraid of Pui Pui and Yakon if he could sense them.

They already determined Dabura's power from their first encounter with him outside the ship.

Just because Kaioshin wouldn't be able to sense them does not mean it is the same for everyone. He witnesses Super Saiyan 2 Gohan's power at the tournament and was shocked by the power Vegeta exhibited after killing Pui Pui in base form. If you're relying on his perspective on it, you're setting yourself up for a lot of confusion.

[dbgtFO]

I suppose that the saiyans can turn Super Saiyan with easy, so it shouldn't be taken in account only their base power.

When Vegeta says Kibito is a moron for getting killed and we later find out, that Kibito is weaker than base Saiyajins, Vegeta should only be referring to his base power, since calling Kibito a moron for not doing, what any SSJ could have done, when Kibito is far from that strong is stupid.

As I said before, Piccolo and others could feel Majin Vegeta's Ki, so they emit Ki

Did you miss the quote, where I said that Majin Vegeta isn't completely controlled by Babidi's magic? And the quote where I said, that only completely controlled Babidi minions don't emit ki?

I believe, that a person completely controlled by Babidi doesn't emit ki similar to how Goku was unable to sense any life from Spopowitch, so Kaioshin would be unable to sense anything from Yakon and just base his power on the speed he demonstrated against Goku.

I suppose that Goku wasn't saying that Spopovitch had no Ki, but that his Ki (or behavior) was strange, like a zombie or so.

Afterall, Piccolo and the others could felt Vegeta Ki while he was fighting Majin Boo...

Vegeta was not completely controlled by Babidi though...

He wouldn't have to do anything, damaging and inevitably killing him for his energy does not require his co-operation at that point.

Babidi wanted to kill Kaioshin himself. He stated that much, before Dabra attacked Kibito & Co. And he also told Yakon to kill everyone, but Kaioshin, when they were inside the ship.

[Son_Gohan]

Babidi wanted to kill Kaioshin himself. He stated that much, before Dabra attacked Kibito & Co. And he also told Yakon to kill everyone, but Kaioshin, when they were inside the ship.

Which is contradicted when he commands Majin Vegeta to kill him.

If he wanted Kaioshin's energy he could've easily done both. But all that is suggested is that he couldn't use it to revive Buu, only the 3 Saiyans. Which causes further confusion considering Babidi didn't think they'd stand a chance against Pui Pui, and yet their combined energy would've been enough to fill the tank?

Toriyama's writing really fell short here...

[Fox666]

Vegeta was not completely controlled by Babidi though...

Vegeta could disobey Babidi's orders, but his body still was in effect of Babidi's power. So I don't think Vegeta was different from the others.

[dbgtFO]

Babidi wanted to kill Kaioshin himself. He stated that much, before Dabra attacked Kibito & Co. And he also told Yakon to kill everyone, but Kaioshin, when they were inside the ship.

Which is contradicted when he commands Majin Vegeta to kill him.

Oh yeah, even Dabra is like: "Didn't you want to kill him yourself?"
It really is a weird chain of events...

However a possible explanation is that he wanted Kaioshin to die at the time, because Kaioshin was about to enter the ship possibly causing Majin Buu to be awakened prematurely, which wouldn't benefit Babidi, so maybe that was why, he seemingly changed his mind.

Which causes further confusion considering Babidi didn't think they'd stand a chance against Pui Pui, and yet their combined energy would've been enough to fill the tank?

It seems that Babidi and Dabra were clueless about how much power was needed to revive Buu. Babidi didn't know that the energy suction device he gave to Spopowitch and Yamu could contain almost half of what was needed to resurrect Buu, and thought that it was energy taken from regular earthlings, so when he sensed earthlings in the thousands(in terms of FP, if Pui Pui rivals 18.000) he thought that they could fill it up or something.

Toriyama's writing really fell short here...

And thank Dende for that, since because of that the claim that Base Saiyajins having surpassed Piccolo is thrown straight out the window, due to everyone being suppressed, when those comments were made.

Vegeta was not completely controlled by Babidi though...

Vegeta could disobey Babidi's orders, but his body still was in effect of Babidi's power. So I don't think Vegeta was different from the others.

Obviously I think he is, since it seems to me, that Toriyama stressed the point that the characters weren't relying on their ki sensing abilities to figure out their opponents' movements and powers:

Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P11.1
Context: after Goku manages to kick Yakon in the dark
Goku: “You’ve underestimated us too much. Even in pitch darkness, I can easily tell your movements. Through things like the subtle flow of the air…”

If Goku could sense ki from Yakon, he would just say, what Vegetto said:

Chapter: 504 (DBZ 310), P13.1
Context: Boo surrounds himself in smoke, but Vegetto can still beat up on him anyway
Vegetto: “The important thing is to grasp ki strength and movement. You track me with your eyes, so you can’t follow my movements.”

[Ussj Future Trunks]

They are similar to the main villains in a way. I look at it like this.
Pui Pui = Frieza
Yakon = Imperfect Cell
Dabra = Perfect Cell.

[beast mode]

Why would Toriyama base them off just the Z villains? Wouldn't he include Piccolo if they represented the major enemies of the series?

Unless it's just because it's Vegeta vs. Vegeta, Goku vs. Freeza, and Gohan vs. Cell. Each Saiyan fighting against who was the major villain at the peak of their importance.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Why would Toriyama base them off just the Z villains? Wouldn't he include Piccolo if they represented the major enemies of the series?

I don't think he's saying that Toriyama necessarily matched them up with any villain. Just how powerful he sees them, and that it would be nice if they matched up with the main villains.

[beast mode]

Why would Toriyama base them off just the Z villains? Wouldn't he include Piccolo if they represented the major enemies of the series?

I don't think he's saying that Toriyama necessarily matched them up with any villain. Just how powerful he sees them, and that it would be nice if they matched up with the main villains.

I wasn't just replying to him, but the idea in general.

[Senzu_Bean]

Pui Pui is definitely a nod to the Saiyans from back then and Dabra is equal to Cell. Yakon is the trickiest one.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Pui Pui is definitely a nod to the Saiyans from back then and Dabra is equal to Cell. Yakon is the trickiest one.

I wouldn't say definitely. His planet has gravity x10 that of Earth, but so does Kaio's planet and the Room of Spirit and Time. x10 gravity just seems to be the default gravity number that's thrown out in these cases. I never took him as "definitely" being a nod to the Saiyans from back then. Just some alien dude whose planet's 10x gravity of Earth.

As stated, Dabra's about as strong as Cell. As for Yakon...it's not like they all have to necessarily match up to a villain's level of power. Yakon isn't tricky; you just plonk him somewhere around base Goku in the Boo arc. If he happens to be around Freeza's level, then that's fine as well. You've got a lot of room to play with things.

[Senzu_Bean]

I wouldn't say definitely.

Well, Saiyans are that strong cause of 10x gravity according to Kaio. Pui Pui thinks such gravity is a big deal thus he cannot be far from what Vegeta was back then.

Yakon isn't tricky; you just plonk him somewhere around base Goku in the Boo arc.

It is tricky because there is no really statement that places it around someone or something. All we know is he's stronger than Goku, far weaker than Super Saiyan Goku and Kaioshin knows/fears it.

Below: which is still a reference to his power. That is what I'm saying.

[beast mode]

Pui Pui is definitely a nod to the Saiyans from back then and Dabra is equal to Cell. Yakon is the trickiest one.

I wouldn't say definitely. His planet has gravity x10 that of Earth, but so does Kaio's planet and the Room of Spirit and Time. x10 gravity just seems to be the default gravity number that's thrown out in these cases. I never took him as "definitely" being a nod to the Saiyans from back then. Just some alien dude whose planet's 10x gravity of Earth.

It might just be a reference to Goku training in 100x gravity after the Saiyan arc, so 10x is just child's play by this point, not necessarily a reference to the Saiyans' home world.

edit:

It is tricky because there is no really statement that places it around someone or something. All we know he is stronger than Goku and far weaker than Super Saiyan Goku.

We don't know if Yakon is stronger than normal Goku. Only that Yakon's stronger than someone who can defeat Pui Pui by a large margin.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Pui Pui is definitely a nod to the Saiyans from back then and Dabra is equal to Cell. Yakon is the trickiest one.

I wouldn't say definitely. His planet has gravity x10 that of Earth, but so does Kaio's planet and the Room of Spirit and Time. x10 gravity just seems to be the default gravity number that's thrown out in these cases. I never took him as "definitely" being a nod to the Saiyans from back then. Just some alien dude whose planet's 10x gravity of Earth.

It might just be a reference to Goku training in 100x gravity after the Saiyan arc, so 10x is just child's play by this point, not necessarily a reference to the Saiyans' home world.

Well, Vegeta grew up on a planet with x10 gravity, trained at x300 gravity and is super-strong, so yeah, x10 is child's play by this point.