Does Gotenks have SSJ2?

p123 · Post by **p123** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:15 am

Always wanted to see how this discussion breaks down....

If you guys can, please provide pictures, and evidence to back up your opinion....

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:45 am

Yes, he does.

Daizenshuu 7's Special Attack Dictionary wrote:Super Saiyan 2
First Appears Chapter 408
User(s) Son Goku, Son Gohan, Vegeta, Gotenks
Characteristics This form has power that surpasses Super Saiyan in all ways. Gohan naturally transformed into this form through his anger at Cell's brutal actions, while Goku and Vegeta learned it through harsh training.

Visually, here's the only point in the manga at which he's in the form, while in transition up to Super Saiyan 3.

Michsi · Post by **Michsi** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:47 am

It's only natural that he would have if he can go up to level 3 .
I don't think you can skip levels....

p123 · Post by **p123** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:12 am

Agreed Mischi.... Naturally, Gotenks should have it... I also think there is evidence. Compare Gotenks and Goku's SSJ3 transformation. And compare Goku's SSJ2 burst...

Goku does not show sparks when he does a SSJ2 burst. Logically, you do not show sparks until you complete a SSJ2 transformation...

Gotenks and Goku both have sparks prior to transforming into SSJ3. Only when the big explosion happens , is that considering SSJ3 IMO...

So prior to the pop, is SSJ2... So when Goku is powering up, he is just a SSJ2 with long hair, trying to be a SSJ3, but not quite there yet until the next panel, when the big explosion occurs... Agreed?

dbgtFO · Post by **dbgtFO** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:15 am

I agree with the above replies, and Daizenshuu does as well as Kaboom pointed out, so there's no real debate here.
EDIT: And I agree with you as well p.
From my experience, it's only people who "incredinerf" Gotenks, that claims he doesn't have it, so he barely ends up 4x stronger than Goku or something.

p123 · Post by **p123** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:17 am

Yes, I am noticing that as well. The only people I have heard that disagree with SSJ2 Gotenks, are Gotenks Nerfers... And try to make Goku relevant in regards to Gotenks/Super Buu power. It's quite possible that SSJ3 Gotenks is 10/50/100x stronger than Goku...

Piccolo Daimao · Post by **Piccolo Daimao** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:38 pm

Michsi wrote:It's only natural that he would have if he can go up to level 3 .
I don't think you can skip levels....

Devil's advocate: if you count the Super Saiyan Grades, Gohan skipped those and went straight to Super Saiyan 2. But Gohan's weird anyway.

But yeah, I think Gotenks has Super Saiyan 2. The Daizenshuu says so, and there's nothing contradicting it, and he did display lightning while in transition up to Super Saiyan 3.

Senzu_Bean · Post by **Senzu_Bean** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:58 pm

Piccolo Daimao wrote:Devil's advocate: if you count the Super Saiyan Grades, Gohan skipped those and went straight to Super Saiyan 2. But Gohan's weird anyway.

Super Saiyan Grades are failed attempts, per say, to attain the limits of Super Saiyan which Full Power Super Saiyan is.

Piccolo Daimao wrote:But yeah, I think Gotenks has Super Saiyan 2. The Daizenshuu says so, and there's nothing contradicting it, and he did display lightning while in transition up to Super Saiyan 3.

Absolutely true.

Piccolo Daimao · Post by **Piccolo Daimao** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:20 pm

Senzu_Bean wrote:
Piccolo Daimao wrote:Devil's advocate: if you count the Super Saiyan Grades, Gohan skipped those and went straight to Super Saiyan 2. But Gohan's weird anyway.
Super Saiyan Grades are failed attempts, per say, to attain the limits of Super Saiyan which Full Power Super Saiyan is.

Yeah, I know. I've always thought of the Super Saiyan Grades as basically regular Super Saiyan with all your power pushed into it, rather than new transformations. I was just playing devil's advocate anyway, albeit crappily.

Dabooyaka · Post by **Dabooyaka** » Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:43 pm

p123 wrote:Yes, I am noticing that as well. The only people I have heard that disagree with SSJ2 Gotenks, are Gotenks Nerfers... And try to make Goku relevant in regards to Gotenks/Super Buu power. It's quite possible that SSJ3 Gotenks is 10/50/100x stronger than Goku...

HAHAHAHAHA wow. That is the most ridiculous thing I have heard on a DBZ forum. Gotenks being 50-100x stronger?? Wow, thanks for that one. I needed a laugh.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:46 pm

Dabooyaka wrote:HAHAHAHAHA wow, that is the most ridiculous thing i have heard in a dbz forum. Gotenks being 50-100x stronger?? Wow, thanks for that one, i needed a laugh.

I've noticed you making a good handful of these types of arrogant and mocking comments likely. As a mod, I'm asking you to tone it down and rein in the attitude.

Zephyr · Post by **Zephyr** » Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:01 pm

Senzu_Bean wrote:
Piccolo Daimao wrote:Devil's advocate: if you count the Super Saiyan Grades, Gohan skipped those and went straight to Super Saiyan 2. But Gohan's weird anyway.
Super Saiyan Grades are failed attempts, per say, to attain the limits of Super Saiyan which Full Power Super Saiyan is.

I thought the Grades were failed attempts at SSJ2, not FPSSJ.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:51 pm

Zephyr wrote:I thought the Grades were failed attempts at SSJ2, not FPSSJ.

It would seem that way. They and SSj2 are always labeled as higher forms "beyond Super Saiyan," whereas FPSSj is not, and treated no differently than regular Super Saiyan aside from the traits of total control.

Daizenshuu 2's "Growing Up" guide for Goku, the only place in which I can recall FPSSj being described, says it "draws out the power of the Super Saiyan to its limits." The power of Super Saiyan, not power "beyond" Super Saiyan. Which fits with the description from the manga and the "full power" label, is that the full potential of the form is now usable without any extra stress or waste of energy.

The distinction seems pretty clear to me.

Senzu_Bean · Post by **Senzu_Bean** » Sat Mar 05, 2011 6:24 pm

Zephyr wrote:I thought the Grades were failed attempts at SSJ2, not FPSSJ.

All of them are still within Super Saiyan 1 even though they are beyond Super Saiyan in terms of power. (another evidence that are steps in power) They are just different ways to reach that power. This is pretty clear when you realize Trunks during the Cell Games is around the strength he was at SSJ 3rd Grade but only in [Full Power]Super Saiyan.

And none of them are transformations or steps per say. Each of them represent a certain amount of power.

Kaboom wrote:... whereas FPSSj is not, and treated no differently than regular Super Saiyan aside from the traits of total control.

What?! FPSSJ is treated the same as SSJG, both by Goku and Vegeta.

beast mode · Post by **beast mode** » Sat Mar 05, 2011 6:42 pm

Senzu_Bean wrote:
Zephyr wrote:I thought the Grades were failed attempts at SSJ2, not FPSSJ.
All of them are still within Super Saiyan 1 even though they are beyond Super Saiyan in terms of power. (another evidence that are steps in power) They are just different ways to reach that power. This is pretty clear when you realize Trunks during the Cell Games is around the strength he was at SSJ 3rd Grade but only in [Full Power]Super Saiyan.

If he possessed the strength of Stage 3 in his supposedly 'Full-Power' form at the Cell Games then he should be stronger than Cell, Gohan, Goku, and Vegeta...

Trunks 'USSJ2' > Cell > Gohan FPSS > Goku FPSS > Cell Jr. > Vegeta > Trunks

Senzu_Bean · Post by **Senzu_Bean** » Sat Mar 05, 2011 6:46 pm

No!

Perfect Cell Full Power >> Perfect Cell [still]Suppressed > FPSSJ Goku > SSJG Trunks > Perfect Cell Suppressed = FPSSJ Goku at 50% >> SSJG Vegeta

Trunks is only stronger that Cell holding back quite a lot of his power. Even Trunks says FPSSJ Goku surpasses him as well as Cell still holding back against Goku.

beast mode · Post by **beast mode** » Sat Mar 05, 2011 6:59 pm

Senzu_Bean wrote:No!

Perfect Cell Full Power >> Perfect Cell [still]Suppressed > FPSSJ Goku > SSJG Trunks > Perfect Cell Suppressed = FPSSJ Goku at 50% >> SSJG Vegeta

Trunks is only stronger that Cell holding back quite a lot of his power. Even Trunks says FPSSJ Goku surpasses him as well as Cell still holding back against Goku.

He probably meant Stage 2, not 3. 3's useless.

So when Cell said that Trunks surpassed him, he was saying "You've surpassed my not-quite-serious power so I'm going to give you this lesson on speed and whatnot that is completely irrelevant since I could still destroy you even if you were fast."

Senzu_Bean · Post by **Senzu_Bean** » Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:04 pm

Yes, that is pretty much common knowledge in here. Someone will explain that to you.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:07 pm

Senzu_Bean wrote:This is pretty clear when you realize Trunks during the Cell Games is around the strength he was at SSJ 3rd Grade but only in [Full Power]Super Saiyan.

Who says that's not simply a result of training? That's all we saw Goku and Gohan doing once they'd perfected the form, and is what Goku attributed his power growth to. "We're gonna make Super Saiyan super-easy so we can stay in it like it's our normal state, and then we're gonna train a lot." That was Goku's plan, and is what he and Gohan were shown to do. When he emerged, he said that continuing to train in the room wouldn't do them any more worthwhile good.

Kaboom wrote:... whereas FPSSj is not, and treated no differently than regular Super Saiyan aside from the traits of total control.
What?! FPSSJ is treated the same as SSJG, both by Goku and Vegeta.

Then you'll have to enlighten me as to where and when, because I don't see anything of the sort in my manga. All I see is this...

Da Manga wrote:Trunks: “S-so then…When they fight, they’re [perform] an ev-even more tremendous transformation…!”
Vegeta: “Are you an idiot?...You don’t seem to think things over…They’ve judged that state as the best! If they get used to that as a matter of habit, then even if they raise their battle power, the strain on their body is very small! They’ve thought this through…”

... And nothing in that description indicates it being a different, higher form or granting more power than regular Super Saiyan. Vegeta's remark about "raising their battle power" needs mean nothing more than simply going all-out, as opposed to being suppressed as they were at the time.

"Full-Power" Super Saiyan is nothing more than regular Super Saiyan, but with total control to the point where it comes naturally, and can thus be used at its best without any extra stress or waste of energy. This is all it's described as anywhere, in any source. What about that description would make anyone believe that it magically grants more power? What about merely controlling the form is possibly going to achieve that?

It seems pretty obvious that it simply just made their training that much more beneficial. To the point where even with SSj's normal 50x boost, they far overcame the power which Trunks and Vegeta could generate with the "Grade" forms.

Senzu_Bean · Post by **Senzu_Bean** » Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:11 pm

Oh gosh! No, I'm not going to enter in a pointless argument with you and those ridiculous ideas that their norm skyrocketed in power for no damn good reason. I'm waiting for that quote on the guides that states SSJG and FPSSJ are 50x multipliers or multipliers at all. It is like people have been pulling stuff from their asses lately.

Kanzenshuu

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