Does Gotenks have SSJ2?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

So when Cell said that Trunks surpassed him, he was saying "You've surpassed my not-quite-serious power so I'm going to give you this lesson on speed and whatnot that is completely irrelevant since I could still destroy you even if you were fast."

Pretty much. Cell was referring to Trunks surpassing his current power--then he went on to show that he could raise his power in a similar fashion.

Krillin sensed Trunks's power when he was fighting Cell, and couldn't even believe that his huge Chi had went down (when Trunks decided to stop fighting) right there. Later, once Goku went to full-power against Cell, Krillin had said that Goku was beyond all of them.

[beast mode]

So when Cell said that Trunks surpassed him, he was saying "You've surpassed my not-quite-serious power so I'm going to give you this lesson on speed and whatnot that is completely irrelevant since I could still destroy you even if you were fast."

Pretty much. Cell was referring to Trunks surpassing his current power--then he went on to show that he could raise his power in a similar fashion.

Krillin sensed Trunks's power when he was fighting Cell, and couldn't even believe that his huge Chi had went down (when Trunks decided to stop fighting) right there. Later, once Goku went to full-power against Cell, Krillin had said that Goku was beyond all of them.

Yeah but does Krillin mean 'beyond all of them if we are counting useless transformations' or 'beyond all of them if we aren't counting useless transformations?'

[p123]

MSSJ Goku >> USSJ2 Trunks ~ SSJ Vegeta/Trunks > 50% MSSJ Goku = Suppressed Perfect Cell

[Dabooyaka]

Do you really think ssj Vegeta Cell games is around the same level of power that ussj2 trunks displayed?

[Senzu_Bean]

Do you really think ssj Vegeta Cell games is around the same level of power that ussj2 trunks displayed?

In this case he as to be. Really!

[Godo]

MSSJ Goku >> USSJ2 Trunks ~ SSJ Vegeta/Trunks > 50% MSSJ Goku = Suppressed Perfect Cell

I'm sorry, but do you (and other users who use this kind of communication) really think that typing out your views in this particular way is in any kind efficient or clever?

This isn't even a proper kind of discussion. You haven't even explained anything in that post, like why you think the way you do.

With "SSJ Vegeta/Trunks", do you mean their level at the early Androids Arc, later Androids Arc or Cell Games Arc? This is what limited types of conversation leads to.

For me, as a user that speak English as a secondary language, and actually tries to communicate in proper English and to convey my message in the most comprehensible way (and even use spell-check just for this purpose) it's like a kick in the face to see users abuse the strength discussions we have in this way.

I bet that this kind of communication is one of the huge reasons to why strength discussions are frowned upon in many Dragonball communities.

And I wonder why this type of communication is allowed, whilst not using capital letters are frowned upon (and corrected). Another example is when a user types a message in abbreviations, such as "I thk Vegeta post ROSAT is betr then Cell, lol jk" and it's corrected, and the user is referred to the rules where it's stated that you should use proper communication methods and also proper English.

Yet this mess of arrows and other crap is supposedly a communication form that is acceptable? Or have I missed something?

[VegettoEX]

No, you're absolutely right -- a post that consists of (and solely of) an asinine list of character names/forms separated by notation like that is absolutely unacceptable.

If you cannot or are not willing to actually provide substance in your posts and engage in long-form discussion with your peers in every post you make, please do not even bother posting in the first place. The forum rules (which you agreed to prior to registration) explicitly note this, and it should come as absolutely no surprise to receive a warning.

This will be the last free warning of this variety. To those of you who wish to engage in nothing other than strength/power discussions: that is fine, but if you will not do so in a friendly way and by following the rules (you're already getting looked down-upon by your peers), you'll be gone.

[p123]

My bad. Generally I talk to much. This time not so much. I thought we were on the same page. Prepare for a 1,000 word essay...


Super Perfect Cell

He has powered up like Son Gohan, and should be on par with Gohan's enormous SSJ2 power...

Power Weighted Perfect Cell

This Cell is tremendously big, he has obviously maxed out his size, and looks exactly like a USSJ2 psuedo transformation. This version should be much stronger than Perfect Cell's Full Power, seeing how massive USSJ2 is . I don't believe Cell gets the same boosts as the Saiyans do for his psuedo forms, but he should be getting something significant here.

Perfect Cell Full Power

This power is far superior to SSJ Gohan, and the Powered Up level he was fighting SSJ Gohan at. The entire earth shakes when he powers up, and his power up is suggested to be quite massive. Cell perhaps powered up anywhere from 50-75% IMO...


Perfect Cell Powered Up ~ SSJ Kid Gohan

Powers both stated to be above SSJ Goku. These powers should be in relation to each other, as Cell does end up bearhugging Gohan, but Gohan's feats against a serious Powered Up PC must be noted.

SSJ Goku

A power that far surpasses any power shown thus far...


SSJ Vegeta / Trunks ( Cell Games ) / USSJ2 Trunks


Currently I have USSJ2 Trunks slightly superior to both of them. But they should all be in the over 50% MSSJ Goku, and way below 100% MSSJ Goku range... Vegeta is quite confident going into the Cell Games, and this could not be if he was weaker than 50% Goku...



50% Goku = Suppressed PC

During their warm up, they fight evenly... 50% MSSJ Goku >>> USSJ Vegeta is stated as well. So two powers that dwarf USSJ Vegeta, and both of them happen to fight evenly? Let's take the authors hints here.. This power is so overwhelming, Cell is quite confident in taking on a highly amplfied blast.... IMO, Suppressed PC >= Galick Gun USSJ Vegeta. I think it's quite possible that with Cell's knowledge of the Goku vs Vegeta fight, Cell can make a decent guess to how strong Vegeta can amplify. That might be thinking too much into it, but still, Suppressed PC thinks that he can take on an amplification off of USSJ Vegeta. Who is stupid strong himself...


USSJ Vegeta

A power that dwarfs Semi Cell. So much so Semi has no other option but to beg Vegeta to allow him to attain perfection. Cell has no other option, and is at the complete mercy of Vegeta here.


Semi Cell

Initial Semi Cell takes out Android 16 so easily, its laughable. This looks similar to Kiwi vs Vegeta IMO, and 16 is completely ragdolled.. He has no chance at all , and his punch is tanked, and then he has half of his head ripped off. Semi > 16 by a good margin...


Imperfect Cell / Android 16

Cell even thinks he may have powered up to much.. Luckily he did so, because 16 has a monstrous power. How strong are these guys? They are strong enough to completely tank a charged up Light Grenade from Kamiccolo. Perhaps Kamiccolo was injured or battle worn abit, but he shouldn't be way off of his full power. A fully charged amplified attack from Kamiccolo. Cell/16 are stronger than 17/Kamiccolo by a huge margin. The gaps in their powers are completely understated , and people need to realize that 17 and Kamiccolo are nowhere anywhere near them...


Cyborg 17 / Kamiccolo / Cyborg 18


Powers beyond the Pre Rosat SSJs by a good margin. So much so, they don't even consider just training anymore, they need to find a whole new level of SSJ.






So the point of my first post was, that yes, the numbers should be tremendous. When you have guys tanking highly amplified blasts, ones that are suggested to have improved greatly from the Saiyan Saga, and other characters who think they have a chance to tank one, we are talking big big power gaps here ...

[Senzu_Bean]

So the point of my first post was, that yes, the numbers should be tremendous.

What numbers?! There aren't numerical battle powers anymore at that time.

[Fox666]

Yet this mess of arrows and other crap is supposedly a communication form that is acceptable? Or have I missed something?

I would like to request the moderators prohibit this kind of post.

That kind of post should be allowed sonely on the "Official Unofficial Power Levels" thread

And there are many reasons for it: threads constantly get flooded with that; it's almost unrelevant; it's fan-created work; it disrupts the aesthetic of the forum

MSSJ Goku >> USSJ2 Trunks ~ SSJ Vegeta/Trunks > 50% MSSJ Goku = Suppressed Perfect Cell

I'm sorry, but do you (and other users who use this kind of communication) really think that typing out your views in this particular way is in any kind efficient or clever?

This isn't even a proper kind of discussion. You haven't even explained anything in that post, like why you think the way you do.

"Other users" no! Believe me, he is alone in his team

I have already given up to argue with p123. He just keep using premises whom only himself believe to be true

I am not saying you can't have a conversation with him. But it's like discussing politics with somewhom whom premises is that democratic party members are aliens, you hardly will get somewhere

[p123]

Anyway, this thread is getting derailed.


This is an interesting issue, were there is no clear answer like some of the other problems. With the Gohan SSJ or SSJ2 issue, we have some basis what to judge upon what would be the correct answer ( the artwork ) , with this, not so much ...

Goten and Trunks disbelief that they found something that surpassed Super Saiyan, is a contradictory quote apparently since the entire world witnessed Goku's lesson to Fat Buu, Goten and Trunks included.

Gotenks does seem to imply he only has one transformation. And Gotenks actions, attempting to get out of the Rosat with SSJ, and not trying SSJ2, even though he says he doesn't want to use SSJ3 and would like to use it at a better time.

So if he had SSJ2, or was aware of it, he would have used it logically since he does not want to waste SSJ3 on such an issue. But then, how could he not be aware of it when Goten/Trunks were taught it by Goku? But then in the ROSAT, they act like they are unaware of two levels surpassing SSJ..


Very interesting issue, another issue AT has just left for us to make a personal opinion on.


IMO, the final push by AT on making Goku somewhat relevant, is enough for me to consider Gotenks SSJ2 nonexistent. I also feel that the final push from AT does downgrade all of the prior feats from the Fusion Saga by a couple of shades, but their implications must be respected. My numerical chart expresses this contradictory series of events..

[hleV]

I think Gotenks just wanted to look cool, so he went SSJ3.

[Kaboom]

That's pretty much Gotenks' universally-applicable motivation for anything, no matter how dumb it is.

• "Just watch! I don't even NEED Super Saiyan to beat Boo! I'll do it in base and it'll be so COOOOL~"
  
  "I just flew around the world a few times (in one second lololol) and wasted most of my half-hour taking a nap, now I'm off to face Boo and it'll be totally COOOOL~"
  
  "I'm gonna fuse and fart around while only in my base form against a being easily at least a hundred times stronger than me because it'll look so COOOOL that way!"
  
  "Oh noooo, I'm all out of energy, we're doomed... PICCOLO WTF DID YOU JUST DO I WAS SAVING SOMETHING COOOOL~"
  
  "I know Boo is probably slaughtering my friends and family out there, but I'm not gonna use SSj3 yet because someone should be there to see how COOOOL I am when I do it!"

Even putting aside that he's only 7½ years old, Gotenks is kind of an idiot.

[Rostir]

<snip>

I agree.

[p123]

Agreed. Gotenks is surely an idiot.

He greatly overrates his Base/SSJ forms. Logically, if he tried to use Super Saiyan to escape the ROSAT, he would at least try to use Super Saiyan 2, as he doesn't want to waste SSJ3 at such a bad time. He wants SSJ3 to come out when it's a really cool time.

Gotenks would have used SSJ2 so he could save his SSJ3 for Buu after they escaped. Also Goten/Trunks imply they only have one transformation beyond Super Saiyan.


The only way Gotenks doesn't have SSJ2, is if he is unaware of it. And the Goku's lesson thing, kind of makes that questionable...

[Dabooyaka]

I don't see why Gotenks does not have Super Saiyan 2. We have never seen a Saiyan skip transformations, so why would Gotenks? Even the Manga draws a whole panel of him in his SSj2 state.

[VegettoEX]

Just wanted to pop in and say that if you guys aren't interested in having a legitimate and polite discussion, then please don't even bother coming on over to talk about things.

This website and forum is intended to be one of the most valuable resource in the English language for this franchise. If you don't view it that way, then why even bother in the first place? If you don't find value in us, then what do you expect to gain? Running back with petty laughter and dismissive remarks isn't helping anyone learn more about the franchise they love.

We're here to be friendly, helpful, and honest. Why aren't you?

[p123]

I don't know. a lot of the reasons I decided to look down this road was because people are hating on Gotenks being multifolded over Goku. So I'm trying to see the plausibility in all things regarding Gotenks strength...

I feel the ....


Base Gotenks Post > SSJ Gotenks Pre > SSJ3 Goku ( Fat ) > Fat Buu chain is quite solid.


However, I do feel that AT does make a final push for Goku, and Goku could potentially be much stronger against Kid Buu then he was against Fat creating the chain....



SSJ3 Goku ( Kid ) ~ Kid Buu > Base Gotenks Post > SSJ Gotenks Pre > SSJ3 Goku ( Fat ) > Fat Buu



Which would make a lot of us happy, and keep all of the Gotenks quotes as they should be...


Most of us assume Kid Buu was far greater a threat than Fat Buu, and unless Goku powered up greatly, there's no way that could be true IMO...

Vegeta's " Goku/Kid Buu are unimaginably stronger than I thought " , could be a sign that Goku is far stronger than when he fought against Fat Buu... But then we don't know if Vegeta sensed them or not. But perhaps Vegeta could tell somewhat by their speed and stuff...



But anyway...



I think Gotenks may or may not have SSJ2. It doesn't make sense for him not to, but it doesn't even make sense for Gotenks to have SSJ3. He is created from the fusion of two people who only have MSSJ ( IMO ) , and that could lead to varying results as well...


One thing I find AT has given us multiple multiplie plausible options for the Buu Saga. It's totally unlike the other two sagas in which we can agree 99% on everything for the most part. A lot of times I find that AT must have done this on purpose, perhaps to increase the re-read value on the last saga. There's just so many different wildly varying plausible theories it can make on sick...

[Dabooyaka]

I agree with you there, Gotenks not having Ssj2 makes no sense at all. Him having Sj3 is more idiotic as well. That's fusion for you.

[p123]

Well that's why I think it's possible for him to not have SSJ2. The boys statements suggests they only have one level, or are unaware of having SSJ2. Then we know that Goten/Trunks were taught about the two different levels, but then, they seem to have forgot it in the ROSAT...


From what I can tell, if Gotenks has SSJ2, he does not know about it, or he would have tried to use it to get out of the Rosat, and if he doesn't have it, it would just have to be explained that he has an unnatural SSJ3, due to Goten/Trunks not having SSJ2/SSJ3, and fusion allows for unnatural things...

Perhaps if your just strong enough, you don't need SSJ2 to get to SSJ3. Or something. Either is plausible, neither really makes sense.. At least the Daiz thinks Gotenks has SSj2, that at least gives it some official backing...