Goku's true boost in strength when becoming Super Saiyan?

[Miracles]

I agree with Akira Toriyama.

[Bussani]

The same as Super Saiyan. Super Saiyan being Ki that you possess that's inaccessible unless you transform. Kaio-ken multiplies your strength, creating strength that didn't exist within you before.

Here's some really fucked stupid nonsense analogy:

Base: Using 1 finger.
Super Saiyan: Using all ten fingers.
Kaio-ken: Growing new fingers momentarily.

Ah, I get you.

[p123]

I believe all Z Senshi get stronger, and are training unless they are stated not to.

I do feel Piccolo ( Buu Saga ) > Piccolo ( Cell Games ). We know from Piccolo's history, that he is a fighter, and he trains. As we can see , it's stated Yamcha/Tien stopped training, so obviously they would be removed. So IMO, you need to be stated to have stopped training, to consider one to have stopped. And if one trains, he will get stronger logically. The rate of increase changes post Cell games.

IMO, Base/SSJ Goku , Piccolo , Tien , all seem to imply hitting their limits. They keep training, and keep getting stronger, but their rate of increase, would be at a snail's pace. Over 7 years one should get some considerable gains in retrospect, but nowhere near the massive gains they were showing previously..

[beast mode]

But Piccolo was always training because he was all pent up and needing to kill some Saiyans/Artificial Humans/whoever. By the Tenkaichi Budokai in the Buu arc he's totally tranquil and shit.

Was Tenshinhan ever stated to stop? Wasn't he in the middle of training during Buu's extinction attack?

[p123]

Exactly, we do see Tien training, so we know he didn't stop. Piccolo does train for the Budokai, and him even wanting to compete suggests he still has something besides his new lifestyle.

If I were a betting man, I would think Piccolo did train, not nearly as hard as he did when death was imminent, but I'm sure he did regular training. I mean he can't just sit there up there all day and advise Dende every single step of the way. He is a fighting Namek, it's still in him, but it's just calmed down a whole lot.

[beast mode]

Exactly, we do see Tenshinhan training, so we know he didn't stop. Piccolo does train for the Budokai, and him even wanting to compete suggests he still has something besides his new lifestyle.

If I were a betting man, I would think Piccolo did train, not nearly as hard as he did when death was imminent, but I'm sure he did regular training. I mean he can't just sit there up there all day and advise Dende every single step of the way. He is a fighting Namek, it's still in him, but it's just calmed down a whole lot.

He might just be like Krillin, not training seriously, just enough to keep up his strength. Unlike Gohan or Vegeta (the extreme opposites of what's possible.)

[p123]

Kuririn was stated to have stopped training from what I remember. If Yamcha/Kuririn are both stated to stop, and Piccolo was not, why would we think Piccolo did?

[beast mode]

What I mean is that his training at that point probably isn't anywhere near as intense as it used to be (any increase in strength is negligible.)

[p123]

Yes, I feel Goku/TIen/Piccolo are in the same boat on that. They can train, and get stronger, but it's at a snail's pace. Much like how an experienced power lifter gets gains...There's only so far you can push your body, everyone has relative limits, even if you can still progress, a slowed rate of progress does start forcing limitations onto oneself...

[dbgtFO]

This quote probably just sunk my previous post on the matter. I don't know, I guess Piccolo also didn't train over the years so he is weaker than normal Gohan.

No, no, no, your theory is just fine, if you agree with this:

What Super Saiyan do is exactly the same Zarbon did when he transformed. They are essentially physical transformations to sustain more power. Think in Freeza's case but backwards. It is exactly the same.

Super Saiyan is hidden power that happens to be 50 times stronger than normal form and when you get stronger in base your SSJ will also be stronger, because your body is now capable of tapping into that power.

Also Goku at the Cell Games was a Full Power Super Saiyan, while Gohan wasn't according to his Growing up section, yet Gohan is stronger than Goku..
So if there really is a limit to SSJ as they say in Goku's entry, isn't the above implying that Gohan's SSJ limit is different or something?

[Senzu_Bean]

Super Saiyan is hidden power that happens to be 50 times stronger than normal form and when you get stronger in base your SSJ will also be stronger, because your body is now capable of tapping into that power.

That is exactly what Zarbon's "monster" form is. Except the 50 times stronger part of course.

Also Goku at the Cell Games was a Full Power Super Saiyan, while Gohan wasn't according to his Growing up section, yet Gohan is stronger than Goku..
So if there really is a limit to SSJ as they say in Goku's entry, isn't the above implying that Gohan's SSJ limit is different or something?

A FPSSJ is a Super Saiyan that can increase his battle power without deforming/changing his body, like the opposite SSJG. The limit you're referring to means Goku can't possible "found" another way to have more power in his Super Saiyan form. It doesn't refer to the fact Goku can't get stronger.

And would you consider Goku prior to training with Kami a different form or whatever than after? Cause that is the only difference between a FPSSJ, a SSJG and a regular SSJ - the ability to control their own battle power. That is why trying to simplify all these with multipliers doesn't work.

[Fox666]

Also Goku at the Cell Games was a Full Power Super Saiyan, while Gohan wasn't according to his Growing up section, yet Gohan is stronger than Goku..

As far I can see, the Daizenshuu only listed important power-ups, since this is a page about how the character grow, not how they achieve new transformations.....

Using this logic it makes sense that they didn't differ beetween Gohan before and after achieving "full-power" form. In fact these isn't even a real distincion beetween normal Super Saiyan and "full-power" forms, since it is not a transformationm, but rather mastering the state.

Here is a list of all missing "power-ups" I can figure on the Daizenshuu page:
- Goku discovering Grade II and III
- Gohan "full-power" Super Saiyan states
- Goten, Trunks and Vegeta "full-power" Super Saiyan states
- They omit the "fat" Gotenks from the failed fusion dance. Not that this is relevant, but at least it's an example of how this page is not meant to list every single form
- Gotenks going Super Saiyan 2 form (even if he showed it for only a brief moment in the manga)
- Vegeta Grade III (even if he is not seen using it in the manga, he said to be able to)
- Vegeta going Super Saiyan 2 (they only list when he was possessed by Babidi)

[Piccolo Daimao]

But Piccolo was always training because he was all pent up and needing to kill some Saiyans/Artificial Humans/whoever. By the Tenkaichi Budokai in the Buu arc he's totally tranquil and shit.

No, he's not all "tranquil and shit". He just doesn't get to fight because his opponents are so much stronger than him. He does train to fight in the 25th Tenka'ichi Budokai, at least. There's no reason to assume that Piccolo stopped training and at his ass on God's Palace guiding Dende, just because Kuririn probably did (he stopped shaving a head, a martial arts discipline he had upheld up until then, likely as a result of settling down with a family - he'd always wanted a girlfriend). And I can see maybe reason for thinking Yamcha stopped training, since both him and Kuririn were way outclassed by the Saiyans and Piccolo, and he didn't enter the 25th TB out of fear of embarrassment, but not Piccolo.

And @p123: Kuririn wasn't stated to have stopped training, only that he'd stopped shaving his head after the fighting stopped. Only Gohan was ever stated to have been slacking off and, as a result, was stronger at the Cell Games.

[Senzu_Bean]

No longer training, his hair has grown out.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Well, that solves it, then.

[beast mode]

It seemed pretty evident that Gohan was in 'Full-Power Super Saiyan' against Cell, as he was calm while in the Super Saiyan transformation.

Now, doesn't he say he's gotten his old power back or something when he uses the Kamehameha against Buu's shell thing? Because later we seem him struggling to use the Z Sword in normal form, needing Super Saiyan to wield it correctly... then when Goku shows up he's able to use it just fine while not Super Saiyan... Does that mean Full-Power Super Saiyan Gohan at Cell is equal to normal Gohan after training with that heavy sword during the Buu arc?

Gohan (Normal): 1
Gohan (Full-Power Super Saiyan): 50
Gohan (Normal, after training): 50
Gohan (Super Saiyan, after training): 2,500
Majin Buu: over 2,500
Gohan (Potential fully unlocked): higher than Majin Buu

[Kaboom]

Gohan's section in the "Growing Up" guide does mention how he's trained to live in Super Saiyan as his normal state, which is the core definition of FPSSj. It just doesn't mention the other effects like in Goku's section. Probably just because it'd be redundant.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Now, doesn't he say he's gotten his old power back or something when he uses the Kamehameha against Buu's shell thing?

No. He says this:

Chapter: 460 (DBZ 266), P4.1-5
Context: before Gohan fires the Kamehameha at Boo’s ball
Gohan: “An-anyhow, he's reached full power, so…At the very least…Uaaaah! I’ll offer this much resistance!”

[Fox666]

Does that mean Full-Power Super Saiyan Gohan at Cell is equal to normal Gohan after training with that heavy sword during the Buu arc?

Not necessarily, I suppose Gohan had faaar more strength than necessary to wield the sword while in Super Saiyan form.

[beast mode]

He's sweating while using the sword in Super Saiyan... although that might just be because he is sensing Goku's Super Saiyan 3 Ki.