Goku's true boost in strength when becoming Super Saiyan?

[Fox666]

It surely is because of Goku's Ki. All that page tells us is that so far Gohan had trouble wielding it in his base form.

[p123]

My theory on Gohan is that Post Zeta training brings out Gohan's max potential up to that point in his life. So, in general, it's basically the same kind of power up that Gohan would have received if he had trained hard over the 7 years. I feel Movie 10 Gohan is the same as Post Zeta Sword Gohan...

And yes, I have Base Gohan Post Zeta Sword > SSJ Teen Gohan. Gohan's mastery of the sword, and SSJ Gohan struggling with the sword initially leads me to believe this. Gohan does say that the sword has increased his arm strength, so there's definitely plausibility in the thought that perhaps only his physical strength is superior to his SSJ forms previous physical strength, but I take it more as a simple suggestion that Base Gohan > SSJ Gohan...

SSJ2 Post Zeta Sword Gohan's hypothetical power is enough to make Goku wonder if Gohan is stronger than Fat Buu. Keep in mind, that Gotenks is there, and Goku believes Gotenks > Fat Buu, so there's no rush to get Gohan in there, when he is inferior to Gotenks anyhow.


I do believe Elder Kaioshin's " that's the wrong way to do things " in regards to transformations, does give some plausibility that Super Saiyan is just bringing ones own power out.

Which makes Base Saiyans > Piccolo, and SSJ being a smaller multiplier after reaching MSSJ, an easier thing to swallow, since the Saiyans essentially just learn how to bring out more of their power in base then previously.

[Dabooyaka]

Nice theory, to bad is not factual. The boost was never implied to have changed. It was not either implied that base saiyans surpassed picccolo.

[jackjack]

He's sweating while using the sword in Super Saiyan...

I have Base Gohan Post Zeta Sword > SSJ Teen Gohan.

No aura = powered down.

[Kaboom]

How the hell is Gohan supposed to get 50+ times stronger just from swinging around a heavy sword for less than a single day? I can accept the "plot-driven growth" idea, but only to a certain extent.

[beast mode]

It's a magic sword...?

[Fox666]

Many members of this forum believes that Piccolo got 100 times after training with Kaio, and the pages in the manga only show him medidating there... Gohan training is surely way more efficient

Not that I believe on it, anyway

[lash]

Goku's true boost in strength when becoming Super Saiyan?

It's 50 times his normal power, always/for the entire series.

[Godo]

I feel Movie 10 Gohan is the same as Post Zeta Sword Gohan...

I for one don't. For me it's placed before the tournament training (as evidenced by Gohan's gi, his overall "rustyness" in fighting and Videl hanging around with them, as when they trained). But each to his own, I guess.

It's a magic sword...?

The only thing magic with it seems to be that Rou Kaioshin is sealed within it, and that it's heavy. We can conclude that Gohan in base has stronger arms than Goku, at least.

Many members of this forum believes that Piccolo got 100 times after training with Kaio, and the pages in the manga only show him medidating there... Gohan training is surely way more efficient

Not entirely true. Ki training and meditation is shown to be an excellent way to improve your ki skills and become stronger (as in using your ki more efficiently). This seems to have been the groundstone in the FPSSJ and G1 & G2 SSJ transformations. And Piccolo has always been quite the meditator, becoming stronger even though he hasn't done too much physical training.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

I feel Movie 10 Gohan is the same as Post Zeta Sword Gohan...

I for one don't. For me it's placed before the tournament training (as evidenced by Gohan's gi, his overall "rustyness" in fighting and Videl hanging around with them, as when they trained). But each to his own, I guess.

The Gohan and his power displayed in the movie is based on the pre-Budokai version, I don't know why anyone would assume it isn't.

Movies 8, 10 and 11 are canon to each other, because the plot of each sequel is dependent on the events of the movie before. So, the very earliest that Movie 11 can happen is May 7th, the same day as the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai. Using this, the earliest Movie 10 can happen is April 20th, after Videl masters flying, and the latest is May 6th, the day before the tournament. This means movie 10 HAD to happen before Gohan would have ever gotten near the sword, assuming he'll even get the sword in the Broli-verse.

[Fox666]

Of course there are plenty of chronological plot holes in the movies (i.e. Gohan having a tail whenever he shouldn't) so you can't really tell when they happened.

In this film, for example, we already have our chronological plot-hole. Supposedly the first time Goten meet Goku was in the Budokai, but this movie contradicts that.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Of course there are plenty of chronological plot holes in the movies (i.e. Gohan having a tail whenever he shouldn't) so you can't really tell when they happened.

In this film, for example, we already have our chronological plot-hole. Supposedly the first time Goten meet Goku was in the Budokai, but this movie contradicts that.

I'm not trying to fit the movies into the main timeline, I'm setting the two parallel to each other. Gohan enters high school on the same day in both universes. Videl makes Gohan teach her to fly on the same day, she masters flying on the same day, and the Budokai takes place on the same day. Other events can vary, it doesn't really matter. The Broli movies themselves may have taken place in a universe where Buu never existed, or where he was defeated early on. It may be impossible to pinpoint exactly when they happen within their alternate universe, but it isn't hard to narrow down the window like with movie 10 (Between April 20th and May 6th).

[p123]

Gohan shows up in a gi, it's quite possible he trained in M10. I mean Base Gohan attempts to fight SSJ Broly who in the Daiz is stated to be above FPSSJ Goku. I mean how can Gohan sense Broly's SSJ ki " As bad as ever " , and not opt to fight as a SSJ unless he could manage something in Base?

This is TOEI as well. They don't seem to go by the 50x boost, Pikkon W/Weights is taking out King Cold/Freeza with ease, as well as Pikkon W/Weights being on par with Base Goku. I know the Funi Dub has Goku getting several times stronger but I don't know what the original has...

Base Gohan should be at least on par with MSSJ Goku M8, or Gohan would have fought as a SSJ.

Trust me, I think it would have made a lot of sense if Gohan fought SSJ Broly as a SSJ, and had his SSJ2 stomped, which would place Broly somewhere on a SPC level and make sense of M8. I don't know why they opted to go the uber hax route, but it would have been nice if they kept Gohan the same as canon Gohan, which would help us place M8 LSSJ Broly...


TOEI does a lot of weird things, but from what I see, I see nothing that suggests that TOEI feels MSSJ powers receive 50x boosts...

[lash]

I think you're over analyzing.

Goku states he has never felt a Ki as high as Janemba's in Movie 12, yet starts the fight out in his base state.

A sensible person wouldn't take that to mean Goku's base form somehow got stronger than his Buu arc SSJ2 state or stronger than Fat Buu.
The scenario doesn't really have to make much sense when it comes to Toei. They tend to use progressive show offs all the time. "Goku/Gohan are fighting with this form...uh oh Goku/Gohan are getting pummeled, Boom, oh yeah that's right they can transform, maybe they have a chance now/now the real fight starts. But I still can't help but wonder why they didn't use that in the first place..." They do that all the time in movies/ filler, it's nothing new.

Base Gohan was getting manhandled by Broly anyway. He stood no chance whatsoever, and SSJ Broly wasn't even putting in any effort. I don't see any reason not to believe Gohan isn't the same strength as his canon counterpart.

[p123]

Going to have to check that out. You talking Fat Janemba or Super Janemba?

I know Super Janemba is stated to have the strongest ki he has ever felt, which IMO includes Ultimate Gohan. Big debate going on over at NeoSeeker...

I came up with...


Buuhan > Base Vegetto = SSJ Gogeta ~ Buutenks > Super Janemba > Ultimate Gohan POV, and tied it in with my fusion formula, and thought it was cool regarding the Fat/Super Buu/Janemba variations. Anyway..

Still working on that...

TOEI does do a lot of silly stuff, but Gohan mentions his power and Broly's power, and then continues to fight. I mean what else are we supposed to expect what Gohan's power up is supposed to be unless we see?

[dbgtFO]

Going to have to check that out. You talking Fat Janemba or Super Janemba?

It was said about Fat:

[lash]

@p123

People must be getting mixed up with Fatty. I don't recall anything like that ever being said for the transformed version. Ultimate Gohan didn't exist at that time...

Gohan's "powerup" was SSJ2. I take it as Gohan just warming up in base form, just as Goku was against Janemba. Or instead you could say they were getting an understanding of the enemy's movements first before going all out. The out of universe explanation would be Toei's character show off progression I mentioned earlier. It took half the entire movie for the base saiyans to transform in movie 7 for instance. They waited until they got the crap beaten out of them before they realized they can transform. Vegeta and Trunks probably would have easily defeated their enemies had they gone to full power from the start. Does what they did make any sense? Probably not. Should we try to make sense out of it? We probably shouldn't.

[dbgtFO]

@p123

People must be getting mixed up with Fatty. I don't recall anything like that ever being said for the transformed version.

Something similar was said:


And I agree with the second part of your post.

[p123]

You got a great point Lash. And this guy Skelter over at NeoSeeker starting putting up all the instances in which Base Saiyans were fighting when they shouldn't be.

It would be another TOEI headache, which is very possible. Actually, right now I have no counter, and think you have a serious case. I have heard it before, many times actually, but tried things on the other side of things... Having LSSJ Broly M8=M10 would def be nice, as well as having Broly somewhere around SPC level... I do like this reasoning, I don't think anyone likes beastly strong Broly besides Broly fanboys...

I will keep thinking of ways to debunk it, but I think you are pretty solid. Don't forget Base Goku vs RSSJ Broly I believe, he was RSSJ when they fought right in the lake or whatever right?





About Fat Janemba

I ain't ever felt a ki as incredible as that.


Which would indicate...


Fat Janemba > Fat Buu


About Super Janemba


Goku says Super Janemba is the strongest..



So can we conclude that Gotenks killed Fat Buu, and that...


Super Janemba > Fat Janmeba > SSJ Gotenks Pre > Fat Buu is the line of logic for the movie?


I'm ok with that.


Personally I think


Super Janemba > Super Buu > Fat Janemba > Fat Buu makes sense since using the same variations of the Fat/Super name... But that's just a personal POV.


What I do think, is that Gogeta needed SSJ to take out Super Janemba, Gogeta's immediate Super Saiyan transformation signals this IMO, much like how Vegetto's signals his inferiority to Buuhan...

[Senzu_Bean]

Goku's true boost in strength when becoming Super Saiyan?

It is always 50 times greater than his normal strength. This is applied to every Super Saiyan until they happened to known how to manipulate their battle power within Super Saiyan. After that it's greater than 50x but unmeasurable.