Does Gotenks have SSJ2?

[Kaboom]

Well, the guidebook says he has Super Saiyan 2, it's backed by a panel or two of applicable visual evidence in the manga, and there's nothing to contradict either one of them, so I guess he does have it. This was answered pretty quickly and decisively in the beginning of the thread. So I guess you're kind of at a loss in that department, as like dbgtFO pointed out early on, there's no real debate to be had here.

Besides, Super Saiyan 3 was the only form of Gotenks which ever did any good. Plus, depending on how you take Super Boo's comment later, the big pink jerk may have been pulling his punches considerably against Gotenks while waiting around for Gohan. Then only with Super Saiyan 3 did the brat actually put him in real danger. There's no actual "need" to consider the gap between Gotenks' SSj1 and SSj3 to be proportionally any different than anyone else's.

[p123]

Well like I said, there is a bit of contradiction. Goten/Trunks/Gotenks all imply they either do not have SSJ2, or they are not aware of it. If this was such an open and shut case, we wouldn't have to make a thread about it now would we...

Without the implications of Gotenks not having it, I would agree, but this is a confusing topic, which has plausibility on both sides, one having official backing of course...

[Kaboom]

There's absolutely nothing to indicate that a Fusion can't use stages higher than his two parts are capable of. Heck, if anything, Gotenks' feats prove that the Fusion certainly can.

As for Gotenks never mentioning or using it, there's a perfectly good explanation for that, too. He's a showoff. Super Saiyan 3 is his big new thing that he wants to make a spectacle out of. Somehow, I don't think it would have had the same impact if he used Super Saiyan 2 before it.

If this was such an open and shut case, we wouldn't have to make a thread about it now would we...

Well hey, you're the one who made it.

[p123]

There's absolutely nothing to indicate that a Fusion can't use stages higher than his two parts are capable of. Heck, if anything, Gotenks' feats prove that the Fusion certainly can.

Agreed. Nothing that indicates that SSJ3 can't be reached without SSJ2 though, perhaps with a fusion, one's power is so high , yea AT would have to be a moron to have done that. Lol..

As for Gotenks never mentioning or using it, there's a perfectly good explanation for that, too. He's a showoff. Super Saiyan 3 is his big new thing that he wants to make a spectacle out of. Somehow, I don't think it would have had the same impact if he used Super Saiyan 2 before it.

Exactly what I'm saying! Gotenks is a show off. He specifically states he didn't want to use it at that moment, and wanted to save it for Super Buu or at a more spectacular time. Gotenks comments suggests he has no options, and if he had SSJ2, he would have had another option. Why waste the spectacular mondoness of SSJ3 on something so petty? You know?

Well hey, you're the one who made it.

Hey you caught me trying to be sneaky!

[lash]

If some fans can't even understand the difference between a SSJ1 and SSJ2(see Teen Gohan). It wouldn't be unthinkable for a 7 and 8 year old Goten and Trunks to not understand(or care about) the difference between SSJ stages 1 and 2. They'd probably group them as the same/wouldn't consider it a separate transformation. They likely reached SSJ2 and decided not to use it as SSJ3 looked far more cooler to them.

[p123]

But why waste SSJ3? I can see if they grouped it together, that makes sense, but what about Goku's lesson to Fat Buu? I think the boys imply they didn't know a level surpassed SSJ in the ROSAT, which would imply that their lesson was kind of retconned, or forgotten..

[CODii]

Well, the guidebook says he has Super Saiyan 2, it's backed by a panel or two of applicable visual evidence in the manga, and there's nothing to contradict either one of them, so I guess he does have it. This was answered pretty quickly and decisively in the beginning of the thread. So I guess you're kind of at a loss in that department, as like dbgtFO pointed out early on, there's no real debate to be had here.

Why does this keep going on in spite of irrefutable evidence? If you're going to ignore what is plainly spelled out in the guidebooks then there is no way a logical discussion can take place. You could argue for anything if you choose to selectively ignore evidence.

[p123]

Yea Gotenks having Ssj2 is no big deal...

I have Yakkon and Kid buu at the same gap as Kid Buu and Super Buu. Base-ssj3 should be the same for Gotenks and Goku...

[MajinVegetaSSj6]

Of course, Gotenks has Super Saiyajin 2.

It's showed in the Manga, and STATED in the Daiz n°7. So, what else? C'mon guys...

[Goten Forever]

It's only natural that he would have if he can go up to level 3 .
I don't think you can skip levels....

Unless you're SSJ4 Vegeta.

[Zephyr]

It's only natural that he would have if he can go up to level 3 .
I don't think you can skip levels....

Unless you're SSJ4 Vegeta.

Technically, SSJ4 Vegeta didn't skip any levels. Even though Toei took the simple route and called the form 'SSJ4' its actually not the next step above SSJ3. Its on a different branch of the transformation tree entirely.

[Goten Forever]

Think of the power-ups visually as simple side-effects to the amount of energy input.
SSJ is a build-up of power so high it tries to release itself through the hair even.
SSJ3 is basically like this, but with more excess energy so that it reacts with the atmosphere (lightning) and uses itself by growing the hair of its possessor.
Of course, there has to be a middle-ground - SSJ2 is just the name of the representation between these two where there is enough excess to react statically with the atmosphere but notquite enough to grow the hair. No middle ground would be defying the laws of physics. Which DB rarely follows but its SSJ Powerups do (sort of).

[Dabooyaka]

Super Saiyan 4 is more like a mix of Ozaru and the SSJ form IMO, i think that's why Vegeta was able to skip the transformation. It's not a traditional SSJ level.

[p123]

So we should use the Seg boost, and assume that SSJ3 Gotenks is 8x stronger than SSJ Gotenks, who is more or less on SSJ3 Goku's plane of power right?

[Kaboom]

So we should use the SEG boost, and assume that SSJ3 Gotenks is 8x stronger than SSJ Gotenks, who is more or less on SSJ3 Goku's plane of power right?

Not necessarily. Gotenks was only expected to do something against Majin Boo, but not necessarily be stronger than Goku (Goku claiming he couldn't defeat Boo was a lie, after all). So if you want to be super-strict, he really only "has to be" stronger than the SSj2 heroes, but not really measure up to SSj3 Goku. So, it could be something like this:

SSj2 Goku, Vegeta: 2
SSj3 Goku: 8
Fat Boo: 4
SSj Gotenks (expected): 4
SSj3 Gotenks: 24

And even that's being more methodical than I usually am, AND assuming SSj Gotenks would actually be Boo's equal. There's not even any real proof or indication that SSj Gotenks would even be able to fight Boo like he was expected to. He could have failed just as badly as SSj2 Vegeta or Goku would, for all we know.

[p123]

Well I don't know. If you look at Piccolo Goku's comments. One could see that Goku is implying that Piccolo is right, and that going all out Goku could beat Fat Buu. It's a weird oddity, I wish Infamous 666 was here, he explains the complete sentence by sentence breakdown the best IMO...


But anyway, I view Goku's SSJ3 power, as being what Piccolo says it is. Goku is more or less denying it not to look like a doosh.

So SSJ3 Goku needs to go all out to defeat Fat Buu. I think that's ok, some will argue though.


Goku goes on to say that Gotenks will be stronger, and says that because of the boys being so strong, they will definitely win. IMO, Goku risking the universe, on a weaker fighter than himself, is very how do you say? I guess irresponsible. I think this is totally fine...



SSJ Gotenks Pre > All Out Goku = Kid Buu > Goku Toying a Bit >= Fat Buu



We know that Goku thinks all out Goku, and SSJ Gotenks could definitely beat Buu. One could assume they are on the same plane of power, or close or whatever. You know? But I think Goku would want something more of a sure thing, for someone to take his place.



I just can't see Goku thinking SSJ Gotenks = Fat Buu, and being confident in him winning. I just don't see him risking the entire plane of existence, on something like that. Goku says it's a gamble, but I don't know...

[Kaboom]

Y'know, on that note, something else pops into mind. When Piccolo tells him to go put the boys into the RoSaT, Kuririn expresses confusion that they're not just going to fight now, to which Piccolo responds: "Can't you tell that Fusion hasn't been enough yet?"

Now, I'm quoting that from Viz's translation, but I'm wondering if the original wording is any different, and what the implications might be, especially since Piccolo seems to be talking in the past tense. Could SSj Gotenks actually not have been deemed strong enough to fight Boo even BEFORE Boo transformed?

[violadude]

This is one of those things that shouldn't be a debate but it somehow still is.

[dbgtFO]

Y'know, on that note, something else pops into mind. When Piccolo tells him to go put the boys into the RoSaT, Kuririn expresses confusion that they're not just going to fight now, to which Piccolo responds: "Can't you tell that Fusion hasn't been enough yet?"

Now, I'm quoting that from Viz's translation, but I'm wondering if the original wording is any different, and what the implications might be, especially since Piccolo seems to be talking in the past tense. Could SSj Gotenks actually not have been deemed strong enough to fight Boo even BEFORE Boo transformed?

Well Herms' Strength Checker has it like this:

Chapter: 487 (DBZ 293), P13.5
Context: as Piccolo plans on having Goten and Trunks train in the Room of Spirit and Time
Piccolo: “Can’t you tell…?! As they are now, even if they perform Fusion they can’t win, no doubt about it…! Tell them that if they don’t want to die while they’re still just little brats, then they should train as much as they can…!”

So apparently it's a Viz-ism.

[Piccolo Daimao]

The way that statement is phrased makes me think of it as being in light of Boo's new power.

And frankly, there's support for both sides of SSj Gotenks being stronger or weaker than Boo.