Does Gotenks have SSJ2?

[jackjack]

Gotenks was only expected to do something against Majin Boo

You mean win?

There's not even any real proof or indication that SSj Gotenks would even be able to fight Boo like he was expected to.

Look harder?

there's support for both sides of SSj Gotenks being stronger or weaker than Boo.

Not seeing it, quite frankly.

[Piccolo Daimao]

there's support for both sides of SSj Gotenks being stronger or weaker than Boo.

Not seeing it, quite frankly.

Well, whatever. I'm not going to bother arguing, since I don't care. Nothing contradicts Gotenks being stronger than Boo, nor does anything contradict Gotenks being weaker than Boo. End of story.

[dbgtFO]

there's support for both sides of SSj Gotenks being stronger or weaker than Boo.

Not seeing it, quite frankly.

Well, whatever. I'm not going to bother arguing, since I don't care. Nothing contradicts Gotenks being stronger than Boo, nor does anything contradict Gotenks being weaker than Boo. End of story.

I'll have to disagree with that, but since you won't debate it, then I'll just go a different route and post all the relevant quotes instead, without bothering to come up with interpretations for them(not to mention this topic is not about Gotenks' strength in the first place):

Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4
Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes
Goku: “With these two, if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat him within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”

Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8
Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo
Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.”

Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P7.2-3
Context: after Super Saiyan Gotenks forms for the first time
Piccolo: “…Yeah…Your ki really is absolutely incredible, but how about your movement?...Show me a little”
Gotenks: “Is that alright? If I show you here, the house might break. I’ll do it on the ground.”

Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P9.3-8
Context: Piccolo finally catches up to Gotenks
Gotenks: “You’re slow. So you finally got here? Besides circling around the Earth several times, I even took a little afternoon nap. [ ] Fuffuffuh…So you can’t tell just from my speed just now? My super-duper incredible power…! …Which is to say that the test is over, and I’m going to go take care of that annoying Majin Boo right away…”
*Gotenks takes off*
Piccolo: “H-hey, you idiot! Kuh…! Wh-what a shithead…H-he already has only 1 minute left that he can stay merged. That dimwhit…!”

[jackjack]

Well, whatever. I'm not going to bother arguing, since I don't care. Nothing contradicts Gotenks being stronger than Boo, nor does anything contradict Gotenks being weaker than Boo. End of story.

Even when you have it thrown in your face that he would surely be able to win, that once he was formed the only skepticism was his undisplayed speed, and that he was only told to train when a stronger version of Boo appeared?

[Kaboom]

Let's try to take the condescending snit down a notch, okay?

[Dabooyaka]

When was Gohan a SSJ2?

[dbgtFO]

When was Gohan a SSJ2?

If I'm right, you're just looking at my signature?

[Fox666]

I think I am on Piccolo Daimao side here

Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4
Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes
Goku: “With these two, if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat him within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”

Goku was speculating. Since Goku can't predict the future, his statement doesn't prove anything.

Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8
Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo
Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.”

Same here, Goku is guessing what will happen.

Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P7.2-3
Context: after Super Saiyan Gotenks forms for the first time
Piccolo: “…Yeah…Your ki really is absolutely incredible, but how about your movement?...Show me a little”
Gotenks: “Is that alright? If I show you here, the house might break. I’ll do it on the ground.”

Gotenks Ki surely is incredible. But this tells little about how his power compare to X character.

Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P9.3-8
Context: Piccolo finally catches up to Gotenks
Gotenks: “You’re slow. So you finally got here? Besides circling around the Earth several times, I even took a little afternoon nap. [ ] Fuffuffuh…So you can’t tell just from my speed just now? My super-duper incredible power…! …Which is to say that the test is over, and I’m going to go take care of that annoying Majin Boo right away…”
*Gotenks takes off*
Piccolo: “H-hey, you idiot! Kuh…! Wh-what a shithead…H-he already has only 1 minute left that he can stay merged. That dimwhit…!”

At first Gotenks thought he could take Boo without even going Super Saiyan... you really can't trust Gotenks judgement. In fact every single time Gotenks said he could take his opponent with his X form, he was very wrong.

I don't really see anything here that serves to compares Gotenk's strength to the fat Majin Boo.

[p123]

Goku was very confident in leaving the universe in Gotenks hands. Gotenks not being stronger than Goku and Fat Buu, is a bit in the trying to make Goku strongest realm IMO...

[Kaboom]

SSj Gotenks being stronger than SSj3 Goku is not necessarily the case; it was only suggested as such back when Goku was making false claims of not being able to defeat Boo himself, before his self-retcon later before fighting Kid Boo. But Gotenks is definitely way stronger with his own SSj3. Roughly twice as much, I'd say.

Even if we the gamble-predictions as fact and go with SSj Gotenks being able to defeat Fat Boo, then that only means that both he AND Goku could do so. There's no actual indication to which of the two are stronger.

Personally, I'd say it's Goku. I think his massive SSj3 power boost would be major overkill on Fat Boo had he chosen to finish him off, whereas Gotenks might have a harder time.

If we use the meter for Boo as a scaling system for his power, then since SSj2 Gohan's power filled it up a little under halfway... then Boo is a little over twice SSj2 Gohan's power. Goku and Vegeta are stronger than Gohan, potentially over half of Boo's power. Goku being 4x stronger at SSj3 than at SSj2 would mean he's roughly twice as strong as Fat Boo, maybe even more. So there's a big gap wherein which Gotenks could fall. Behold:

SSj2 Gohan - 10
SSj2 Goku / Vegeta - 15
Fat Boo - 25
SSj3 Goku - 60
SSj Gotenks - 30+

And that's just if Gotenks really WAS capable of taking out Fat Boo, which we don't really know for sure.

I'm getting a little too "stream of consciousness" here, my bad.

[Senzu_Bean]

Good to see I'm not the only one who thinks Gotenks before training in RoSaT wasn't capable of anything useful or at least anything besides what Vegeta already had done.

[p123]

Agreed. It just doesn't make sense for Gotenks to be weaker. Goku does state Gotenks will be stronger. One can say that he didn't actually say that to Buu, but then what's the purpose of Goku saying it. It's quite possible AT just mixed it up or whatever.

Gotenks is hinted to being stronger than Goku , while Goku is never hinted to be stronger.


I am ok with Gotenks being on par with All Out Goku though, but then again, you can start getting into that...


All Out Gotenks > Standing Around Gotenks = All Out Goku > Toying Goku >= Fat Buu


So Gotenks standing around, could possibly be stronger than even an all out Goku..


It's tough. But I choose to place Gotenks a good margin above Goku, just to be safe. Gotenks not being stronger than Fat Buu by a solid margin, with Goku depending on the universe's fate on his power, just doesn't make sense to me.


If the roles were reversed, Goku would surely be suggested to be stronger.


Goku also denies Gohan an oppurtunity, and questions is Gohan is stronger. This is also I feel, because Gotenks has it in the bag.



Goku never contradicts his own statements, and there's really not much evidence behind Goku > Gotenks. It's just that Goku is the main character, and we always assume he is the strongest...

[Senzu_Bean]

Agreed. It just doesn't make sense for Gotenks to be weaker.

I was actually saying Gotenks is weak, compared to Buu that is. The Daizenshuu confirms he only surpassed Vegeta and Goku after training thus he wasn't stronger than Buu.

[Kaboom]

I was actually saying Gotenks is weak, compared to Buu that is. The Daizenshuu confirms he only surpassed Vegeta and Goku after training thus he wasn't stronger than Buu.

Oh yeah, I totally forgot about that. I knew there was some reason other than my hunches that I didn't think non-SSj3 Gotenks was all that.

[p123]

We are going to have a difference in opinion solely on the Daiz thing.

So Goku was wrong, and Gotenks couldn't beat Fat Buu? So the universe is over?

[Kaboom]

So Goku was wrong, and Gotenks couldn't beat Fat Buu? So the universe is over?

Well, Goku was lying about himself NOT being able to beat Boo. Perhaps Gotenks' power really was an uncertainty. Goku had never performed Fusion with anyone himself (yet) after all, so he couldn't possibly predict exactly how strong a fusion between the kids would turn out. So maybe he was bluffing and as hopeful as much as anyone else.

[p123]

Goku suggestions have never been wrong, and he displayed a ton of confidence in Gotenks. Goku's word is generally a sure thing, unless he himself contradicts his own previous statements. So the contradicted statements come under question sure, but his uncontradicted statements, should be looked as , as factual. Much like how Elder Kaioshin is potrayed in the Buu Saga. These two are the guys to believe, and their word is above and beyond the other characters.


Gotenks being weaker than Fat Buu, and Goku leaving the world and the universe to it's doom, just sounds a bit off to me, and is not suggested in the manga at all. Piccolo has no problem with SSJ Gotenks standing around ki.

Nothing suggests Fat Buu > SSJ Gotenks, except for the Daiz, which going by the manga is wrong here. But I know your idealogy behind the Daiz Kaboom, and I know that you find the Daiz word to be above all regardless of logic, and will try to explain based off of the Daiz.

Which makes debating with you pretty pointless, since you will not change your position on a Daiz related topic. But, I dunno, I just don't see where the manga potrayed that at all.

[Senzu_Bean]

Oh gosh... just delete this post.

[Kaboom]

Nothing suggests Fat Buu > SSJ Gotenks, except for the Daiz, which going by the manga is wrong here. But I know your idealogy behind the Daiz Kaboom, and I know that you find the Daiz word to be above all regardless of logic, and will try to explain based off of the Daiz.

Which makes debating with you pretty pointless, since you will not change your position on a Daiz related topic. But, I dunno, I just don't see where the manga potrayed that at all.

Um... did you miss this entire recent thread where I spent practically every single one of my posts within it pointing out why the Daizenshuu's statement on the given topic wasn't to be trusted because it went against the manga?

I don't believe that, I don't believe that the future Androids were weaker than the present ones, and I'm skeptical of Nappa having a PL of 4000, just to name a few examples from ONE set of books. In addition to that, I'm still trying and mostly failing to adjust to SSj3 being a 400x multiplier, and Toriyama needs to be reminded that female Kaio and Kaioshin do exist because he actually designed a few.

I don't need the flippin' guidebooks to do my thinking for me, so don't go type-casting me as some sort of blind fanatic because I happen to disagree with you about something as ultimately meaningless as a power level debate. I just don't see a reason to disagree with the books unless it's necessary or worthwhile, and I'm just lucky that this one little chunk happens to support my hunches about Gotenks.

So speaking of which, about that Gotenks dude...

[Rocketman]

Gotenks did not exist yet when Goku made his statements. Goku hadn't even seen Goten and Trunks' full power yet when he said what he did to Fat Buu.