Does Gotenks have SSJ2?

[Fox666]

SSj Gotenks being stronger than SSj3 Goku is not necessarily the case; it was only suggested as such back when Goku was making false claims of not being able to defeat Boo himself, before his self-retcon later before fighting Kid Boo. But Gotenks is definitely way stronger with his own SSj3. Roughly twice as much, I'd say.

Even if we take the gamble-predictions as fact and go with SSj Gotenks being able to defeat Fat Boo, then that only means that both he AND Goku could do so. There's no actual indication to which of the two are stronger.

Personally, I'd say it's Goku. I think his massive SSj3 power boost would be major overkill on Fat Boo had he chosen to finish him off, whereas Gotenks might have a harder time.

If we use the meter for Boo as a scaling system for his power, then since SSj2 Gohan's power filled it up a little under halfway... then Boo is a little over twice SSj2 Gohan's power. Goku and Vegeta are stronger than Gohan, potentially over half of Boo's power. Goku being 4x stronger at SSj3 than at SSj2 would mean he's roughly twice as strong as Fat Boo, maybe even more. So there's a big gap wherein which Gotenks could fall. Behold:

SSj2 Gohan - 10
SSj2 Goku / Vegeta - 15
Fat Boo - 25
SSj3 Goku - 60
SSj Gotenks - 30+

And that's just if Gotenks really WAS capable of taking out Fat Boo, which we don't really know for sure.

I'm getting a little too "stream of consciousness" here, my bad.

That's quite an interesting post.

About Goku's "ret-con" claim of being able or not to defeat the fat Majin Boo, I see as if Goku had enough power to defeat the fat Majin Boo, but he wouldn't be able to do that due to the circumstances (the time limit he had in the living world).

If we go by the idea of the energy meter being equal to Majin Boo's power, Goku as a Super Saiyan 3 would be around twice stronger than him (since we know the form multiplies the power by 4). But I think that's not right, in the brief fight they had, Boo could keep up with Goku, in fact they fought almost equally (even the Daizenshuu describes it as an "even fight"). Of course Goku could not be using all of his power against Boo...

Either way, I don't think there is some indication of Gotenks being stronger than the fat Majin Boo in his Super Saiyan form. Everybody expected a lot of him, and for sure his power was greater than the other saiyans, but it isn't said how much it was. In the end he became strong due to the Super Saiyan 3 form. Gotenks proved to be useless in his Super Saiyan form, at least against the Evil Boo. Despite that, Piccolo shouldn't be so surprised that he reached Super Saiyan 3 stage if his power was already far superior than Goku's in this form.

and Toriyama needs to be reminded that female Kaio and Kaioshin do exist because he actually designed a few.

Since he didn't used it in the manga, he can contradict it as much as he want to.

One example is the meme he presented the anime staff about the saiyans life. Here it is mentioned that the Scouters were developed by a saiyan scientist or something like that. However in the manga it ends up that the saiyans were working under the Planet Trade Organization, which appear to be who developed the Scouters.

[p123]

Ok Kaboom. I just remember you saying that your way consists of wrapping your logic around Nappa being at 4k, and you try to figure it out from there. When we talked about this recently, you said your hand is forced by the Daiz logic. I'm just going off of what you say. You said you were spectacle of Nappa at 4k, yet you should find ways to make it work, through durability and what not. So this is just going off of what you tell me, I haven't done anything other than repeat your sentiments, or at least what I thought were your sentiments. It's awfully hard to debate with guys, on Daiz issues, that are shady manga wise, yet most just say well it has official backing end of story, like Senzu did right below your post. Meh...


I think Piccolo's reaction implies SSJ Gotenks > Fat Buu. Piccolo questions Gotenks speed, which can be taken that his power is indeed incredible as stated. So it appears that power is not an issue for Gotenks, and Piccolo seems to have some clue about Fat Buu's power, as he thinks Goku going all out could take him, and Goku sorta implies he's right. It's an odd back and forth, but I don't think Piccolo leaves that dicussion thinking his intuition was wrong about Goku vs Fat Buu...


I just find it unrealistic for the universe to end if Ultimate Gohan/Super Buu did not appear. From my POV on the manga, Goku's statements regarding Gohan Post Zeta Sword, and pre fusion, as well as Piccolo's statements on Base/SSJ Gotenks, all lead me to believe that SSJ Gotenks had the battle in the bag more or less.


That would have been awfully sucky if Fat Buu > SSJ Gotenks, and the entire universe was destroyed because of Goku's gamble. IMO, I just don't see it. But to each his own.

[Kaboom]

That would have been awfully sucky if Fat Buu > SSJ Gotenks, and the entire universe was destroyed because of Goku's gamble. IMO, I just don't see it. But to each his own.

Well, it wouldn't be the first time which Goku left something up to chance and it almost doomed everyone. Remember the Cell Games? Goku's strategy there was:

"Okay, I'm gonna throw Gohan in to the mix, and hope he gets angry enough to beat Cell. It's a tricky and awesome plan, but I'm not gonna tell him about it! Here goooooeees!"

All in all, I think Gotenks was a whole lot of h(y/o)pe, but not a whole lot of actual use until he reached Super Saiyan 3.

[Fox666]

Piccolo questions Gotenks speed, which can be taken that his power is indeed incredible as stated

I don't see how Piccolo's line mean anything about Gotenk's speed. As far I can tell, Piccolo simply says he wants to test Gotenks. And he is right in asking, since the fate of the planet depends on that.

That would have been awfully sucky if Fat Buu > SSJ Gotenks, and the entire universe was destroyed because of Goku's gamble.

Well, the universe was in great risk because of Goku.

Especially because of Gotenk's personality, not his power. He is a complete idiot, and thought he could defeat the Evil Boo in his normal state (and he couldn't do so even when he was a Super Saiyan 3, that's a huge miscalculation). What would happen if Boo simply resolves to obliterate Gotenks?

So you can see how stupid that decision of Goku was.

Well, it wouldn't be the first time which Goku left something up to chance and it almost doomed everyone. Remember the Cell Games? Goku's strategy there was:
"Okay, I'm gonna throw Gohan in to the mix, and hope he gets angry enough to beat Cell. It's a tricky and awesome plan, but I'm not gonna tell him about it! Here goooooeees!"

Not to forget that his plan almost failed because Gohan didn't wanted to fight...

[Kaboom]

Not to forget that his plan almost failed because Gohan didn't wanted to fight...

Yeah, that too. Goku's plan in the Cell Games was more or less, "I'm gonna toss a kitten into the ring and hope he gets mad enough to mutate into a tiger." Then with Gotenks, it was, "I'm gonna let these two little kids who are a fraction of my power combine and hope the result can do with ONE power boost what it would take me a super-duper-so-haxed-I-can't-even-use-it-while-alive one to do."

EDIT: This is one of the reasons why I find DBZ Movie 12 so interesting. I think Goku's fights against Fat and "Super" Janemba serve as examples of just what he could have respectively done against Fat and Super Boo with SSj3 if he actually went all-out with it.

Against Fat Boo/Janemba, he goes full-force with his power and easily wins, to the point where it's borderline overkill. Against Super Boo/Janemba, he uses the form to it's full potential (Something he can only do while dead) which allows him to put up a good fight, but he is ultimately outclassed. It's an intriguing parallel.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I think Piccolo was already aware that Super Saiyan Gotenks was very powerful based on his comment, but wasn't sure how fast he would be. That's why I think Piccolo wanted to see his "movements", but that could also be referring to his fighting ability, too. I really don't see how Piccolo could even respectively test him in an actual spar, anyway.

One could also assume that Gotenks could possibly be around the level of fat man because Piccolo was still okay with them training outside of the rosat before going into battle against him. Super Boo's arrival seemed to be the only reason why they had to go in there. Yeah, Mark had slowed marshmallow down a bit, but Piccolo still planned on having the boys fight at some point. Piccolo was aware of how powerful Vegeta was to an extent, and even saw him in action. If Gotenks was really weaker than Vegeta at this point, then it also makes Piccolo another mindless drone in this saga when it comes to judging powers.

As for how strong I think Super Saiyan Gotenks is, ummmmm...I'm not even sure. I just don't think he's as weak as some believe.

[jackjack]

Goku: “With these two, if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat him within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”

Goku was speculating. Since Goku can't predict the future, his statement doesn't prove anything.

Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.”

Same here, Goku is guessing what will happen.

It certainly does, when it not only goes uncontradicted but is actually backed up by Piccolo. You can't possibly tell me that Goku asking the kids to reveal their full power was for shits and giggles, then later talked about how a hypothetical Gogeta (or whatever name you would call if he had merged with his son) would be more than enough to match a much stronger Boo, yet he's only cluelessly "guessing" when it comes to the kids?

Piccolo: “Can’t you tell…?! As they are now, even if they perform Fusion they can’t win, no doubt about it…! Tell them that if they don’t want to die while they’re still just little brats, then they should train as much as they can…!”

Plus, you've yet to justify Piccolo not making a comment like this (something people tend to conveniently ignore) when he would be silly not to, if they were too weak to take the very Boo form Goku was assured they would win even without further training inside the ROSAT.

[p123]

Goku's plan at the Cell Games was actually there only shot.


First off, Gohan is stronger than Goku. By a decent margin, so much so, that Gohan is not impressed with Goku's all out power. So logically, Gohan stands a much better chance to win than Goku does, because he is obviously stronger than Goku. Second off, Gohan's hidden rage powers, which have been enacted many, many times throughout the entire series. If you were paying attention, you would notice that Gohan has raged out twice against Raditz, once against Nappa, and twice against Freeza. And he also raged out a bit once against Dodoria, but no suggested rage boost there.


So seeing as how Gohan has DRAMATICALLY raised his power a total of 5 times when he was faced against brutally strong combatants, over the last 5 years, I would think betting your chances of Gohan's rage, would not only be the ONLY option at this point, but it's a pretty smart bet. It's really not all that hard to get Gohan extremely mad, generally if some of his friends start dieing off, he will come through and get pissed like anyone naturally does.

So realistically, Gohan is assured an easy victory and can save the world, and all Goku has to do is make sure he gets angry? That's pretty easy considering don't you think.

Goku's gameplan is often overlooked, but it's quite masterful and ingenious. Not to mention, the only option. Goku already estimates Cell to be a bit stronger than him, Goku later find out that Cell is way stronger than he expected. Goku is simply not on Gohan's level at the Cell Games, and he does not have the added bonus to rage out and get incredibly stronger like Gohan has done, and done again throughout the manga. This is nothing new here, Gohan's rage is an expected thing at this point.


So trying to downplay Goku's gameplan for Gotenks, and using Gohan as an example, is pretty much debunked IMO. There's no basis for Goku being an idiot gameplanning wise, when the universe in on the line. He is quite the warrior, and tactician, even though he is quiet naive.


SSJ Gotenks is suggested to be uberly strong, and Piccolo does not contradict that, instead, he endorses it. There's really no basis for SSJ Gotenks not being stronger than Fat Buu, when the entire manga suggests he is stronger.

[Fox666]

Plus, you've yet to justify Piccolo not making a comment like this (something people tend to conveniently ignore) when he would be silly not to, if they were too weak to take the very Boo form Goku was assured they would win even without further training inside the ROSAT.

Since Piccolo is not a fan obsessed with battle powers he has no obligation of making that kind of statement...

SSJ Gotenks is suggested to be uberly strong, and Piccolo does not contradict that, instead, he endorses it. There's really no basis for SSJ Gotenks not being stronger than Fat Buu, when the entire manga suggests he is stronger.

Really? In my oppinion the manga is very very vague in this question, since the fat Boo cease to exist before Gotenks can have a match with him.

Overall it seems Toriyama didn't cared to make clear how strong Gotenks was compared to Majin Boo at that point.

So I don't see how you can jump from this to be absolutely sure of everything...

[dbgtFO]

Plus, you've yet to justify Piccolo not making a comment like this (something people tend to conveniently ignore) when he would be silly not to, if they were too weak to take the very Boo form Goku was assured they would win even without further training inside the ROSAT.

Since Piccolo is not a fan obsessed with battle powers he has no obligation of making that kind of statement...

Countering jackjack with that is not helping your case.

Really? In my oppinion the manga is very very vague in this question, since the fat Boo cease to exist before Gotenks can have a match with him.

Overall it seems Toriyama didn't cared to make clear about how strong Gotenks was compared to Majin Boo at that point.

So I don't see how you jump from that to be absolutely sure of how it is.

IMO it seems that Toriyama made base Gotenks fight Fat Buu, because he was weaker and let SSJ Gotenks use up all his fusion time, so he couldn't get to fight Buu, since Buu would get owned as Gotenks stated and noone contradicted.
But that's just how I interpret it.

[Kaboom]

There is still legit precedence for believing that SSj Gotenks wasn't up for the task, both from the air of uncertainty within the manga (such as Piccolo wanting to test him out rather setting him off to fight right away) as well as the Daizenshuu comment of him not surpassing "Vegeta and the others" until after his stint in the Room of Spirit and Time.

Shoot, since that part of his D7 bio isn't even form-specific, it's wholly possible that didn't happen until he used SSj3, either! Though at the same time, you could equally take it to mean Super Saiyan or even base Gotenks. Combined with the fact that so many of his "feats," good or bad, are merely gag material, it really becomes evident how so much about this kid is all up in the air.

[jackjack]

Since Piccolo is not a fan obsessed with battle powers he has no obligation of making that kind of statement...

Yet he does when an opponent they can't defeat appears.
What does that say about the fat one?

Overall it seems Toriyama didn't cared to make clear how strong Gotenks was compared to Majin Boo at that point.

Well, it's about as clear as a hypothetical dance fusion between Goku and Vegeta > Super Boo.

[dbgtFO]

So this is what the Daizenshuu 7 quote says:

In order to defeat Majin Buu, who boasted absolute strength, Goku taught Fusion to Goten and Trunks as a last resort, and thus Gotenks was born. After several failures, they finally succeeded in merging together. The two entered the Room of Spirit and Time, and hurriedly trained as Gotenks. As a result, Gotenks leveled up so much that his strength surpassed Vegeta and the others. However, they were taken in by Buu, who had powered up by absorbing the good portion of himself.

The only thing I want to know is, what they are saying with the "taken in" part.

[Fox666]

Plus, you've yet to justify Piccolo not making a comment like this (something people tend to conveniently ignore) when he would be silly not to, if they were too weak to take the very Boo form Goku was assured they would win even without further training inside the ROSAT.

Since Piccolo is not a fan obsessed with battle powers he has no obligation of making that kind of statement...

Countering jackjack with that is not helping your case.

Well, sorry, but how was I supposed to counter? If Gotenks was weaker, why would Piccolo have obligation to say, that Gotenks was weaker (otherwise he would be silly) almost as if he was breaking the fourth wall?

Really? In my oppinion the manga is very very vague in this question, since the fat Boo cease to exist before Gotenks can have a match with him.

Overall it seems Toriyama didn't cared to make clear about how strong Gotenks was compared to Majin Boo at that point.

So I don't see how you jump from that to be absolutely sure of how it is.

IMO it seems that Toriyama made base Gotenks fight Fat Buu, because he was weaker and let SSJ Gotenks use up all his fusion time, so he couldn't get to fight Buu, since Buu would get owned as Gotenks stated and noone contradicted.
But that's just how I interpret it.

You can also say the opposite, that Toriyama wanted to avoid Gotenks being killed by the fat Majin Boo... but I don't there was any kind of plan behind it, it was only supposed to be funny and for Gotenks learn a lesson

Well, it's about as clear as a hypothetical dance fusion between Goku and Vegeta > Super Boo.

Sorry, but was I supposed to get this example as something "clear"?

[dbgtFO]

Well, sorry, but how was I supposed to counter? If Gotenks was weaker, why would Piccolo have obligation to say, that Gotenks was weaker (otherwise he would be silly) almost as if he was breaking the fourth wall?

Piccolo already said that base Gotenks was weaker. If SSJ Gotenks also was weaker, wouldn't it be a good idea for him to say he was?

You can also say the opposite, that Toriyama wanted to avoid Gotenks being killed by the fat Majin Boo... but I don't there was any kind of plan behind it, it was only supposed to be funny and for Gotenks learn a lesson

Well Base Gotenks survived, so I don't think Toriyama was thinking about that.

[Kaboom]

The only thing I want to know is, what they are saying with the "taken in" part.

... "Absorbed?"

[Fox666]

Well, sorry, but how was I supposed to counter? If Gotenks was weaker, why would Piccolo have obligation to say, that Gotenks was weaker (otherwise he would be silly) almost as if he was breaking the fourth wall?

Piccolo already said that base Gotenks was weaker. If SSJ Gotenks also was weaker, wouldn't it be a good idea for him to say he was?

I don't think Piccolo had an idea of how strong Gotenks was. That's why he asked to test him. Before he could do so, Gotenks run off.

However, again, unless Piccolo "breaks the fourth wall" and began to explain it to the reader, don't expect him to keep saying this kind of stuff.

[jackjack]

I don't think Piccolo had an idea of how strong Gotenks was.

Not sure if you're serious...

Sorry, but was I supposed to get this example as something "clear"?

It's stated, isn't it?

[dbgtFO]

I don't think Piccolo had an idea of how strong Gotenks was. That's why he asked to test him. Before he could do so, Gotenks run off.

However, again, unless Piccolo "breaks the fourth wall" and began to explain it to the reader, don't expect him to keep saying this kind of stuff.

I don't think stating if someone is strong enough to fight Character X is the same as breaking the fourth wall.
Breaking the fourth wall would be, if Piccolo told Gotenks something like: "Can't you see? Your power level is far smaller, than the one the Author gave Buu in his notes!!" Or what Krillin did, when he saw that the author was recycling panels, when Goten and Trunks tried out Fusion.

The only thing I want to know is, what they are saying with the "taken in" part.

... "Absorbed?"

I guess that's it then. I've always thought "taken in" was another way of saying "getting beat up" or something. Maybe I was just thinking of "take care of."
Althoug taken in can also mean deceived or swindled by, which does work well with Goten, Trunks & Gotenks thinking they could match Evil Buu with regular state Fusion.

[Fox666]

I don't think Piccolo had an idea of how strong Gotenks was.

Not sure if you're serious...

Yes, I am.

Piccolo: “…Yeah…Your ki really is absolutely incredible, but how about your movement?...Show me a little”

Piccolo wants to test Gotenks because he doesn't know exactly how strong Gotenks is. So in the context of my reply to dbgtFO, Piccolo cannot make a veredict about Gotenks strength. When it comes to Gotenks in his base form, probably Piccolo simply assumed that a saiyan in his base form would never stand a chance...

Of course this question isn't really important. I don't think Piccolo should make a statement for the reader about Gotenk's strength every time he transforms...

However, again, unless Piccolo "breaks the fourth wall" and began to explain it to the reader, don't expect him to keep saying this kind of stuff.

I don't think stating if someone is strong enough to fight Character X is the same as breaking the fourth wall.
Breaking the fourth wall would be, if Piccolo told Gotenks something like: "Can't you see? Your power level is far smaller, than the one the Author gave Buu in his notes!!" Or what Krillin did, when he saw that the author was recycling panels, when Goten and Trunks tried out Fusion.

It is not much different if you say that not saying that Gotenks is weaker proves something.

Sorry, but was I supposed to get this example as something "clear"?

It's stated, isn't it?

As far I am concerned, the character don't even exist. So I think it's quite of a jump to argue about how strong he would be...

Shoot, since that part of his D7 bio isn't even form-specific, it's wholly possible that didn't happen until he used SSj3, either! Though at the same time, you could equally take it to mean Super Saiyan or even base Gotenks. Combined with the fact that so many of his "feats," good or bad, are merely gag material, it really becomes evident how so much about this kid is all up in the air.

The Daizenshuu statement is too much open for interpretation. Who else wrote it didn't cared much about it. It only says that overall Gotenks is stronger than Vegeta & co, which in fact he undoubtedly is since he can turn in Super Saiyan 3.

I don't see why care about the Daizenshuu entry, it doesn't tell anything special.