Vegeta-Super Saiyan 2 before his Majin power up?

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

I know this debate has been going on forever, and it has a rather unclear answer. However, I noticed that after Yakon was killed by Goku, Vegeta thinks to himself that "Kakarrot can transform into a Super Saiyan 2 as well!"
Well, that was from a fanslation, so I didn't really bring it up, but I checked out volume 22 at the bookstore, and it seems VIZ's version has that line as well (well, it says "Kakarrot has surpassed the Super Saiyan wall" or something, but we know what he means >_>). So shouldn't that end the debate? Does anyone know the Japanese line?

[MyVisionity]

I know this debate has been going on forever, and it has a rather unclear answer. However, I noticed that after Yakon was killed by Goku, Vegeta thinks to himself that "Kakarrot can transform into a Super Saiyan 2 as well!"
Well, that was from a fanslation, so I didn't really bring it up, but I checked out volume 22 at the bookstore, and it seems VIZ's version has that line as well (well, it says "Kakarrot has surpassed the Super Saiyan wall" or something, but we know what he means >_>). So shouldn't that end the debate? Does anyone know the Japanese line?

I seem to remember an old fansub line that stated something like "Kakarrot has also surpassed that barrier". I interpret that as Vegeta referring to either Gohan or himself, so it doesn't neccessarily mean he could go SSJ2 pre-Majin. Although I believe my first impression was that he was referring to himself.

[Li'l Lemmy]

"So, that rotten Kakarrot has overcome the wall as well . . . the Super Saiyan wall, during the seven years he trained in the Other World . . ."

So says the Steve Simmons translation. I myself initially took this to mean that Vegeta had reached SSJ2 before being taken over by Babidi; however, MrVisionality brings up a valid point; the Saiyan prince could merely have been making the observation that Goku had caught up with Gohan in terms of power. Vegeta never actually says he himself has during the seven year gap reached that level as well.

I tend to believe that he had indeed ascended. But with nothing directly stated by Vegeta or anyone else, there just doesn't seem to be any concrete evidence to back up such an assumption; it could be impossible to know for sure.

We all have our guesses, but it seems that guesses are really the best we can do.

[Akira]

Okay, there really is no debate on this. Vegeta says Gohan has gotten weaker and demands Gohan stand down so he could step in and fight Dabura. He was keeping his own SS2 a secret, then realized Goku had also become SS2, and was even stronger as SS2 than he himself was. I think I'll get some DVD screen captures with Subtitles on and some Manga scans and end this nonsense once and for all. It doesn't make sense any other way. The only reason anyone thinks Majin powerup made him SS2 is piss poor fan myths and translations from the mid to late 1990's which we all ought to know by now is ridiculous.

[VegettoEX]

Okay, there really is no debate on this.

Apparently there is, as seen by the fact that... uhh... there's a debate on it.

Please don't claim to know everything. Obviously, you don't.

[Dayspring]

Another thing to note is that neither the manga nor anime distinguish USSJ levels from SSJ levels. Only the daizenshuu does. At the Cell Games, Trunks made a comment on how Gohan managed to surpass SSJ without adding the useless mass. If you take into consideration that Vegeta never saw Goku reach the USSJ levels, it's possible that SSJ2 and 3 are really just perfected forms of USSJ and USSJ2.

My personal belief was that Vegeta reached SSJ2 sometime over the six/seven years between the Cell and Buu arcs. I feel he simply allowed himself to be taken over by Babidi as simply a means to to have his strength elevated to equal Goku's. Note that he didn't have his strength pushed past Goku's.

[Dayspring]

Okay, there really is no debate on this. Vegeta says Gohan has gotten weaker and demands Gohan stand down so he could step in and fight Dabura. He was keeping his own SS2 a secret, then realized Goku had also become SS2, and was even stronger as SS2 than he himself was. I think I'll get some DVD screen captures with Subtitles on and some Manga scans and end this nonsense once and for all. It doesn't make sense any other way. The only reason anyone thinks Majin powerup made him SS2 is piss poor fan myths and translations from the mid to late 1990's which we all ought to know by now is ridiculous.

That's important too. If you follow the daizenshuu, Dabura is as strong as Cell.

[Adnan]

Yeah but we all know Vegeta's unhealthy history of provoking and fighting enemies who are clearly stronger than him such as: Freeza, Android 18, Broly, Perfect Cell, Bojack, Buu, Janemba etc.

And furthermore, in many of these cases he even stated that he'd defeat them, therefore Vegeta is also known to claim victory prematurely.

So his claim of being able to beat Dabura and his readiness to fight him in Gohan's place doesn't prove he would have actually beat him nor does it prove that he's actually stronger than Gohan.

[Li'l Lemmy]

The SSJ2 Vegeta debate predates the day I joined the forum . . . however, by running a search and reading through similar threads, I've seen how extensive this topic can be.

I don't know if we're all going to end up repeating ourselves in the end, but in the spirit of good discussion here's a fun and obligatory set of facts and non-facts people had been working with before that we can use here.


Theory #1: Vegeta trained very hard during the seven year gap and as a result came extremely close to reaching Super Saiyan 2, but for whatever reason hadn't yet made the transformation on his own. After a sampling of power (minimal SSJ2) proved that Goku had pushed beyond the limits of Super Saiyan . . . knowing that he couldn't yet reach that level himself . . . Vegeta made up his mind to fall under Babidi's spell for the sake of its dramatic power increase, which effectively pushed him into the realm of SSJ2 and put him on more equal footing with Goku. After all, a fight between a regular Super Saiyan and an ascended SSJ2 wouldn't be much of a fight at all, would it?

Theory #2: Vegeta trained hard enough where he actually was able to push his limits and find his own ascension during the seven year gap . . . but after an outrageous display of power (mid-to-maximum SSJ2) proved what Goku was capable of, Vegeta realized that his rival had mastered the ascended state in a way that again left them so mismatched that he allowed himself to fall under Babidi's spell for the sake of a power-up whose purpose was to close the gap between their SSJ2 powers.


Solid fact: At no point before the Majin power-up does Vegeta or anyone else makes specific mention that the Saiyan prince had found SSJ2 during the seven year gap.
He did so reach it: A vague clue seems to indicate that he has done so. The casual manner in which Vegeta nakes note of the increase in Goku's battle power (after Yakon) prompts the temptation to believe that because he has reached SSJ2 himself, it's no surprise at all to him that Goku has done the same. In the past, Vegeta was always fairly pissed whenever he discovered Goku had surpassed him by a whole stage of power.
Nuh-uh, no he didn't: Vegeta could have merely been making the observation that Goku had matched Gohan in terms of power. He never mentioned himself at all, and is always making calculated observations with regard to his comrades/opponents.

Interesting tidbit: Electrical, cascading sparks of power running over the body are usually a common signal that a Saiyan has reached or is fighting at SSJ2.
What it means: This is typically true anime-wise, though I can't speak for the manga because I don't have any. The hyper-electric quality started with Gohan's awakening, is not seen before that point, and is very prevalent in the battle between Goku and Majin Vegeta.
Why it doesn't matter: There was a fair amount of discussion about this in the last debate, but I don't see what it has to do with or how it helps us determine whether or not Vegeta had the SSJ2 ability before or after Babidi. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Argument: Vegeta had to have reached the second stage! He had already just about mastered the Super Saiyan form entirely before the Cell Games; if Goku was able to make it all the way to SSJ3, it can't take an incredibly focused Vegeta longer than that same seven years to transcend his limitations and find SSJ2.
Counter-argument: Maybe it's not as easy as it looks. Gohan is of the uber-powerful "mixed blood" variety and was exposed to a special set of circumstances that pushed him into that transformation, and Goku went through a very extreme training regimen while in Other World . . . and apparently being dead is less taxing on variables such as ki consumption, which may have aided in just how high he was able to ascend in seven years. Vegeta, who is neither of mixed blood or training while dead, did really need to force himself into just the regular Super Saiyan state, so even with constant training it may take longer than just seven years for a "normal" Saiyan to reach the next stage of power.


I personally think that Vegeta had reached stage 2 before Babidi, but there's not a whole lot to prove it conclusively. I just wanted to have some fun with this debate, since I missed the last one . . . so feel free to add to, contradict, elaborate or utterly ignore anything above, as it's all up to interpretation.

[Akira]

Look, it was not my intention to anger you VegettoEX. I do not think I know everything, nor do I ever claim to. This particular debate I have had with numerous people (not here) and usually win them over with the evidence I see in the Manga and Anime that apears to me to explain it sufficiently. Did I lay all of that out in my response, no I did not.

I appologize if I came off that way, and I see now that I very well appear that way by my response. My cynisizm can come through too strong at times. Again I appologize.

I respect your website, efforts, and the solid and stern way you operate your message forums.

[VegettoEX]

Look, it was not my intention to anger you VegettoEX. I do not think I know everything, nor do I ever claim to. This particular debate I have had with numerous people (not here) and usually win them over with the evidence I see in the Manga and Anime that apears to me to explain it sufficiently. Did I lay all of that out in my response, no I did not.

I appologize if I came off that way, and I see now that I very well appear that way by my response. My cynisizm can come through too strong at times. Again I appologize.

I respect your website, efforts, and the solid and stern way you operate your message forums.

This has nothing to do with me, my website, etc. Don't apologize to me. I can't care any less what anyone thinks about what I think. I, however, have deep issue with anyone on this board saying that anyone else's opinion, when specifically backed by their own research and provided evidence, is somehow inherently inaccurate... just because you say so. Bull.

[Jord]

Look, it was not my intention to anger you VegettoEX. I do not think I know everything, nor do I ever claim to. This particular debate I have had with numerous people (not here) and usually win them over with the evidence I see in the Manga and Anime that apears to me to explain it sufficiently. Did I lay all of that out in my response, no I did not.

I appologize if I came off that way, and I see now that I very well appear that way by my response. My cynisizm can come through too strong at times. Again I appologize.

I respect your website, efforts, and the solid and stern way you operate your message forums.

This has nothing to do with me, my website, etc. Don't apologize to me. I can't care any less what anyone thinks about what I think. I, however, have deep issue with anyone on this board saying that anyone else's opinion, when specifically backed by their own research and provided evidence, is somehow inherently inaccurate... just because you say so. Bull.

VegettoEX, do you like pickles?


On-topic: In the games you can attain SSJ2 form before Majin. Makes you wonder.

[Akira]

I fouled up and came across as arrogant. I apologize to anyone whom I offended or cares to recieve it.

Lemmy you made some solid points, I appreciate your contribution to the topic.

[Sun_Wukong]

Look, it was not my intention to anger you VegettoEX. I do not think I know everything, nor do I ever claim to. This particular debate I have had with numerous people (not here) and usually win them over with the evidence I see in the Manga and Anime that apears to me to explain it sufficiently. Did I lay all of that out in my response, no I did not.

I appologize if I came off that way, and I see now that I very well appear that way by my response. My cynisizm can come through too strong at times. Again I appologize.

I respect your website, efforts, and the solid and stern way you operate your message forums.

This has nothing to do with me, my website, etc. Don't apologize to me. I can't care any less what anyone thinks about what I think. I, however, have deep issue with anyone on this board saying that anyone else's opinion, when specifically backed by their own research and provided evidence, is somehow inherently inaccurate... just because you say so. Bull.

Oh snap Akira, you just got served biotch! Sorry...

This debate has been going on for years. Toriyama didnt give us a clear answer so lets not try to make one up. There really isnt any way it can be proven.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Okay, there really is no debate on this. Vegeta says Gohan has gotten weaker and demands Gohan stand down so he could step in and fight Dabura. He was keeping his own SS2 a secret, then realized Goku had also become SS2, and was even stronger as SS2 than he himself was. I think I'll get some DVD screen captures with Subtitles on and some Manga scans and end this nonsense once and for all. It doesn't make sense any other way. The only reason anyone thinks Majin powerup made him SS2 is piss poor fan myths and translations from the mid to late 1990's which we all ought to know by now is ridiculous.

That's important too. If you follow the daizenshuu, Dabura is as strong as Cell.

That's true in the manga as well. Goku tells Kaiôshin that Dabura is as strong "as a guy names Cell from 7 years ago."
Also note that he later says Dabura is stronger than he though, ie: he was hiding his true power at first.

[Bejiita]

I always thought Vegeta went SSJ2 after Goku does before they fight each other. Because he aquired the power to reach this level after Babidi brainwashed him. That's what I think anyway.

After Vegeta's little speech of always being belittled by Goku, Goku couldn't show Vegeta that he could easily go SSJ3 and kill him.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

I thought he just wanted to close the gap/be evil again

[Sun_Wukong]

Nah, he let Babidi control him for power. Vejiita's always been about power, I dont really think he cares if he's evil.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

I know he wanted the power, but I thought he also said he was getting soft, and wanted to be evil again...

[TheMajinRedComet]

In my opinion Vegeta thought that the only way he could defeat Goku was as an enemy and not a friend. So he didn’t want the soft side of him which Goku created to slow him down. He wanted the necessary ruthlessness to defeat an opponent like Goku. To be blunt I don’t think that Babidi’s possession gave Vegeta that much extra power that wasn’t there to begin with; it just got rid out his distracting emotions and gave him focus.