Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[p123]

Agreed. 16 > Piccolo or 16 = Piccolo , is just not going to fly by most viewers. Piccolo is stated to be on a whole new level, yet 16/Cell were definitely potrayed to be on a whole nother level than Piccolo.

I think Piccolo being around Initial Semi Cell is pretty good. But then again, Piccolo finds that level of power unnatural. It's a weird scenario.

[Senzu_Bean]

Ergo, Piccolo is stronger than a tired FPSSJ Goku, and weaker than Vegeta.

Yep, and that is all you can logically assume from the entire sequence. #16 could possible be or not stronger than a tired FPSSJ Goku too. And Piccolo was beaten up by the Cell Jr. contrary to Vegeta and Trunks.

But then again, Piccolo finds that level of power unnatural.

I'm pretty sure Piccolo is talking about the Cell who beat the shit out of him. He was pretty much dead when Cell absorbed #17.

[p123]

No Piccolo stated that about Initial Semi Cell. Piccolo says it to Goku while they are waiting for Trunks/Vegeta to come out on the Lookout. I think Piccolo says something like, Frankly, Cell's power is unnatural, I don't think anyone can beat him or something like that.

I actually have a different POV than most here. I think Initial Semi Cell is the addition of 17 and Imperfect Cell, and that Imperfect Cell dwarfs 17... I know you don't play the percentage game, but check it out...



Initial Semi Cell 2,000,000,000
Android 16 1,500,000,000
Imperfect Cell 1,500,000,000
Light Grenade 1,000,000,000
Piccolo 500,000,000
Cyborg 17 500,000,000


Also, I will include SSJ Vegeta/Trunks Rosat 1, from our earlier debate. Which we can continue if your ready...


True Power PC 10,000,000,000
USSJ Vegeta 3,750,000,000
USSJ Trunks 3,500,000,000
Initial Perfect Cell 3,460,000,000
Semi Cell FP 3,000,000,000
Initial Semi Cell 2,000,000,000
SSJ Vegeta 1,875,000,000
SSJ Trunks 1,750,000,000



I have USSJ as a 2x boost. If you notice, I use an interesting formula...


Initial Semi Cell = 17 + Imperfect Cell
Initial Perfect Cell = Semi Cell Full Power + 18



Senzu, I also think that Initial Perfect Cell in relation to USSJ Vegeta, is quite similar to SSJ Vegeta in relation to Initial Semi Cell. 16's comments are similar, and I think both are implied to be pretty damn close to the other, but obviously a step below...


What do you think about all of that Senzu?


Oh yea, also, I think True Power Perfect Cell ( Which is really his suppressed power ) , is quite confident in taking on an amplified attack from USSJ Vegeta. He's aware of Vegeta vs Goku, so perhaps....



USSJ Vegeta Final Flash > Suppressed PC > USSJ Vegeta Galick Gun



I know your not strict with multipliers for blasts and what not, but I think that's a lot of quality logic, for such a small area of the manga. Thoughts?

[Senzu_Bean]

Yeah, Piccolo does say that after take a Senzu and while Semi-Imperfect Cell was already wandering around but he never actually witnessed that power besides the one that beat the shit out of him. Maybe he is referring to Cell now or Cell as a whole... it really doesn't change the fact I think he didn't surpassed #16.

[p123]

Agreed. That nothing is really determinant on Piccolo surpassing 16. Hell, Piccolo's comment suggests that he perhaps might not have thought he could get to that level, which gives your POV more weight. I would add that to your argument whenever you can though...


Back to SSJ Vegeta vs Initial Semi Cell.

It seems quite apparent, that everyone can sense Semi Cell's power, and it's suggested that SSJ Vegeta is not all that far from it. There are no contradictions.

This is the same case for Initial Perfect Cell, and him being not all that far off from USSJ Vegeta...

[Piccolo Daimao]

And Piccolo was beaten up by the Cell Jr. contrary to Vegeta and Trunks.

I'm sorry, but I get really annoyed when people say this. Piccolo did just as good as Vegeta and Trunks against the Cell Juniors.

Chapter: 407 (DBZ 213), P5.3
Context: as the Cell Juniors beat everyone up
Cell: “If you don’t show your true worth soon, things will go past the point of no return. Look closely. Vegeta or Trunks are barely fighting evenly…Even Son Goku is in trouble, having lost his stamina…”
Note: Cell says that “Vegeta ya Trunks” are fighting evenly; ya is a non-exhaustive word for ‘and’, meaning the things listed aren’t necessarily the only things there are to list. In other words, Cell’s line doesn’t necessarily mean that nobody but Trunks or Vegeta are fighting evenly, just that they’re the first examples to come to mind

And, as you can see from looking at the damn manga, Piccolo, Vegeta and Trunks are the only ones left standing against the Cell Juniors, while Goku and the Earthlings are on the floor.

Are people just spouting "Piccolo got beaten up by the Cell Juniors/Oh, the Cell Juniors were holding back, enough for Piccolo to fight back, while Goku and the Earthlings got floored because they weren't holding back as much" bullshit just to fuel their nerfing of Piccolo because they don't like Piccolo being that strong? Or are you incapable of looking at what's on the page? I hope you don't reply with a bullshit statement that Piccolo looked significantly more scuffed up than Vegeta and Trunks, and use that to prove your point that Piccolo got beaten up like the others, yet is still standing like Vegeta and Trunks.

[Senzu_Bean]

Just look at the back cover page. Piccolo is almost incapable of standing up, he is bloody and beaten up. Opposed to Vegeta and Trunks only have a few bruises. It doesn't have to be a black and white situation. And lets imagine Piccolo did as good as Vegeta and Trunks that doesn't mean anything whether or not Piccolo surpassed #16 since the android never fought a Cell Jr.

[Godo]

Just look at the back cover page. Piccolo is almost incapable of standing up, he is bloody and beaten up. Opposed to Vegeta and Trunks only have a few bruises. It doesn't have to be a black and white situation. And lets imagine Piccolo did as good as Vegeta and Trunks that doesn't mean anything whether or not Piccolo surpassed #16 since the android never fought a Cell Jr.

1) Cell in his first form fought #16.
2) Vegeta fought Cell in his second form.
3) Cell in his second form nerfed #16.
4) Vegeta nerfed Cell in his second form.
5) Cell in his perfect form nerfed Vegeta.
6) Vegeta became much stronger. He was more or less equal to a Cell Jr.
7) Thus Android 16 would be instantly destroyed by a Cell Jr.

Or in numbers:
1) Cell in his first form (1) fought #16 (1).
2) Vegeta (2) fought Cell in his second form (1,5).
3) Cell in his second form (1,5) nerfed #16 (1).
4) Vegeta (2) nerfed Cell in his second form (1,5).
5) Cell in his perfect form (3) nerfed Vegeta (2).
6) Vegeta became much stronger (2,5). He was more or less equal to a Cell Jr.(2,5)
7) Thus Android 16 (1) would be instantly destroyed by a Cell Jr. (2,5)
AND
8 ) Piccolo (0,5) fought Cell in his first form (1)
9) Piccolo could stand up against a Cell Jr. (2,5) Then he would at least be close to 2.

These numbers are not powerlevels, but mere evidence from reading the manga (strength differences). They always go steps up.

What you are saying is more or less that because of that Kuririn never fought Vegeta at Earth (at his full power), he could never have been able to defeat him or become as strong (although the story strongly implies that he did!).

The gap between Cell and Android 16 is humongous, as well as the gap between a Cell Jr. and Android 16. This is as clear as a sunny day.

You have said for a long time that you shouldn't over-complicate things yourself, but see, here you commit the same error, since you believe that simple Shônen manga power progress doesn't exist with Piccolo's.

This matter is black and white, even though it doesn't have to be. You are the only one who has some kind of blur lens on your eyes.

[Senzu_Bean]

Yet all that is useless. #16 never fought a Cell Jr. thus you can't say whether or not he would be destroyed besides applying your own logic to the situation, which quite frankly I'm tired of it. (Not yours only but in general) Have said it I will leave this matter since it became another pointless and ridiculous debate.

[Godo]

Yet all that is useless. #16 never fought a Cell Jr. thus you can't say whether or not he would be destroyed besides applying your own logic to the situation, which quite frankly I'm tired of it. (Not yours only but in general) Have said it I will leave this matter since it became another pointless and ridiculous debate.

It's not pointless and ridiculous. What you are saying is basically that Vegeta in the Android's Arc couldn't defeat Freeza (that there is no logic behind it), since we didn't see them fight.
The whole act of withdrawing (after not giving any more explanation than "That's not how it works in my opinion because Android 16 never fought a Cell Jr.") shows that you don't have any back up of your opinion and that the debate is useless because of your lack or arguments.

[Kaboom]

This thread is not for arguing about power match-ups, guys. It's for the creation, posting, and feedback of Power Level lists. Let's try not to let things veer too far off-course.

[Rocketman]

Cell Games

SS2 Gohan - ~60
Perfecter Perfect Cell - 55
Perfect Cell Actual Full Power For Reals This Time Guys - 35
SS Goku - 32
SS Vegeta - 26
Cell Jrs - 25
SS Trunks - 24
Piccolo - 20
Tired Goku - 5
Humans - 1

[p123]

I don't think 3 panels from the manga, warrant Piccolo's 1 year in the Rosat to dwarf Vegeta/Trunks SSJ power, and their USSJ power on top of that...


SSJ Vegeta/Trunks Rosat 1 are somewhere around Initial Semi Cell. And then USSJ on top of that is probably a 2x boost. So for Piccolo to be beyond that, is just a bit much IMO, Piccolo should be lucky to progress as much as the SSJ versions, let alone their USSJ versions, and Piccolo being on par with SSJs with two years of Rosat to Piccolo's one, just seems increasingly unlikely, for those 3 panels, that weren't really shown to be a major implication of Piccolo's strength.

Goku says Piccolo can't do anything to Cell, which Piccolo already felt. Are we to assume that Piccolo > 50% MSSJ Goku, based on these " frank " comments. Piccolo is suggested to be nothing to MSSJ Power. I just don't see the basis for it...

[CatouttaHell]

I have Piccolo as strong as Base Vegeta at the Cell Games, even with a 10x multiplier. He only spent one year in the RoSaT and unlike Vegeta and Trunks' first year, he trained alone and likely spent a lot of the time simply meditating. He didn't even see it worth it to go back a second time but told Vegeta and Trunks they should. Not to mention he doesn't have the potential of a Saiya-jin. He was pretty much behind the Base Saiya-jins for almost all of his time in the series. Depending on how you view his reaction to Vegeta's blast at Gero's lab, you could say he was below the Base Saiya-jins always except for the brief time after he fused with Kami-sama and before all of the Saiya-jins were done with the RoSaT.

Also the Cell Juniors were clearly playing around with everyone. There's no way the Earthlings would still be alive if they were actually trying against everybody. If the Cell Juniors were really just equal to SSjin Vegeta and Trunks, I don't see why Cell would freak and unleash his full power instantly after Gohan one-shotted them. SSjin Goku and Gohan could one-shot SSjin Vegeta too IMHO.

[p123]

But that's an impossibility...


Piccolo Pre Rosat =Present Cyborgs > Future Cyborgs > Base Vegeta/Trunks ( Cell Games ) > Piccolo Post Rosat


Doesn't fit man...Piccolo wouldn't get weaker you know?

[CatouttaHell]

But that's an impossibility...


Piccolo Pre Rosat =Present Cyborgs > Future Cyborgs > Base Vegeta/Trunks ( Cell Games ) > Piccolo Post Rosat


Doesn't fit man...Piccolo wouldn't get weaker you know?

IMO Trunks went Super Saiya-jin against them just to be sure. After all of the trauma he's had to experience, including almost being killed multiple times and having his master killed by them, I'd think he'd go full power even if he could beat them in Base just to be completely sure.

[p123]

I don't know. Yes, I think that could be the case. But I don't see why we need to make him that strong.

I think

Future Cyborgs > Base Trunks/Vegeta ( Cell Games ) is more reasonable. But to each his own. Cell was suppressed when Trunks Kiai was used...


As long as you have Base Trunks ( Cell Games ) > SSJ Trunks ( Mecha ), I feel that is enough... But to each his own.


Also, I don't use a 10x multiplier for them, nothing suggests the 50x multiplier chain is broken at this point of the story, and only MSSJ is ever suggested to be different multiplier wise , so I dropped the decreasing multiplier theory...

[CatouttaHell]

I just use the decreasing multiplier theory because it's hard to make Base Gohan above Piccolo without making things ridiculously bloated otherwise. I think Vegeta and Trunks had at least pseudo-mastered SSjin by the Cell Games after seeing the incredible power of MSSjin Goku but to each their own. I have Base Trunks above SSjin Trunks (Mecha) even when I used a 50x multiplier. I don't really agree with the popular view here that the Base Saiya-jins are weak.

I think the absurdly massive power growths that happened in the Freeza Arc show that Toriyama really doesn't care about keeping things conservative, and stopped using power levels because it would just get ridiculous, even for a kid's show.

[p123]

I just use the decreasing multiplier theory because it's hard to make Base Gohan above Piccolo without making things ridiculously bloated otherwise

Sure for MSSJ I use a smaller multiplier. Not for SSJ though.

I think Vegeta and Trunks had at least pseudo-mastered SSjin by the Cell Games after seeing the incredible power of MSSjin Goku but to each their own

Def plausible. But Vegeta/Trunks SSJ ROsat 1/2 forms, aren't really suggested to be using smaller multipliers like MSSJ does...

Plus , it's more realistic for the power scale that they use the 50x multiplier actually..

There are huge,huge power variances, which almost require a 50x boost with Base power around Cyborg level anyhow...


Imperfect Cell >>> Piccolo


Tremendous gap here...


USSJ Vegeta > Semi Cell > Initial Semi Cell

Another huge gap...


Suppressed PC >>> USSJ Vegeta Another huge one


And then 50% mSSJ Goku = Suppressed PC, is a doubling up as well.

[CatouttaHell]

Def plausible. But Vegeta/Trunks SSJ ROsat 1/2 forms, aren't really suggested to be using smaller multipliers like MSSJ does...

Plus , it's more realistic for the power scale that they use the 50x multiplier actually..

There are huge,huge power variances, which almost require a 50x boost with Base power around Cyborg level anyhow...


Imperfect Cell >>> Piccolo


Tremendous gap here...


USSJ Vegeta > Semi Cell > Initial Semi Cell

Another huge gap...


Suppressed PC >>> USSJ Vegeta Another huge one


And then 50% mSSJ Goku = Suppressed PC, is a doubling up as well.

I have Cell Games Base Vegeta slightly higher than his SSjin form against #18 with a 50x multiplier so it works for me. I agree and I don't see how people can have the Base Saiya-jins not surpassing 100% or even 50% Freeza. The power gaps in the series are INSANE.

SSjin Goku and Vegeta against the Jinzoningen are arguably way above SSjin Goku on Namekusei but they still get crushed. Imperfect Cell takes Piccolo's (equal to #17) ultimate attack and isn't scratched, #16 who is equal to Imperfect Cell can't budge a suppressed Semi-Perfect Cell. SSjin Vegeta is above him and USSjin Vegeta is way above that. Suppressed Perfect Cell is worlds above him and 50% SSjin Goku (by my interpretation) is way above him and that's just half of his power, etc.