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Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by CatouttaHell » Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:29 pm

Fox666 wrote:And can absorb people...
CatouttaHell wrote:I personally that his statement about Shin Boo's power were also him bullshitting, but that's just me.
Vegeta already knew about his Super Saiyan 3, didn't him?

Despite that, take in the context. Goku is not simply saying something to make Vegeta happier, he is telling him they can't go outside because of Evil Boo's power, and risking the lives of Gohan & co they just rescued.

And why would he propose to use the Potara to beat the Evil Boo? Take in mind that until them Goku had no idea that the Super Saiyan 3 had a time limit in the living world.

Lastly, after Gotenks fusion times out inside Boo, why does Goku says "This way, Gohan will be able to beat you even on his own…"?

Overall, this is a very different behavior from what he had against the Pure Majin Boo. He simply goes all out with Super Saiyan 3, and even mention he could take this or the fat Majin Boo...
Of course Vegeta knew about Super Saiya-jin 3. But Goku probably wanted to avoid turning SSjin 3 in front of Vegeta except as a last resort, until he saw Vegeta no longer cared about that. And without SSjin 3 they would both get crushed by Shin Boo.

As strong as SSjin 3 Goku is, the complete power of Vegetto is even greater than that. He didn't know anything about Boo's insides, and knowing that SSjin 3 IS a big strain, and that Vegeta couldn't even use that, he was probably worried Boo would try to stealthily absorb them or something. If they were fused, he wouldn't have to worry about Vegeta and he'd even more powerful without the strain of SSjin 3.

He wanted the next generation (Gohan and Gotenks) to defeat the villains from now on until Chibi Boo appeared. With Boo no longer having a fused SSjin 3 Gotenks inside him, Gohan could easily defeat Boo and Goku wouldn't be needed to aid him/do it for him.
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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by Fox666 » Wed Mar 23, 2011 7:41 pm

CatouttaHell wrote:He didn't know anything about Boo's insides,
That's not relevant, since Goku clery refer to not being able to fight Evil Boo if they get outside of his body

1. Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”
2. Goku: “Di-didn’t I tell ya to wear your Potara?! Th-this is why! If we could just go outside and merge, then this kind of guy would be an easy victory!”

And the line where he says that Gohan could take Boo on his own had nothing to do with Boo's insides.
CatouttaHell wrote:and knowing that SSjin 3 IS a big strain
Goku didn't knew that until he tried it against Pure Boo. At that time Goku believed he could use it for a big period of time, like in the afterlife.
CatouttaHell wrote:He wanted the next generation (Gohan and Gotenks) to defeat the villains from now on until Chibi Boo appeared. With Boo no longer having a fused SSjin 3 Gotenks inside him, Gohan could easily defeat Boo and Goku wouldn't be needed to aid him/do it for him.
At the point Goku already gave up the idea of leaving it for the next generation, and simply wanted Boo to be destroyed.

Especially because he made it to Earth just to fuse with Gohan, and later with Vegeta.

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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by CatouttaHell » Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:04 pm

Fox666 wrote:That's not relevant, since Goku clery refer to not being able to fight Evil Boo if they get outside of his body

1. Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”
2. Goku: “Di-didn’t I tell ya to wear your Potara?! Th-this is why! If we could just go outside and merge, then this kind of guy would be an easy victory!”
Son Goku's been wrong before. He also claimed he couldn't beat Fat Boo and backed down in order to let Gotenks win. Considering this incident was right around the only time Goku was actually being SARCASTIC I take his statements with a grain of salt. Also the fact that Vegeta instantly shot down the idea of sending in Gotenks and Gohan to take care of Chibi Boo in favour of the (supposedly) more difficult and tedious plan of making a Genki Dama, and was so convinced it would be the end of the world if Chibi Boo came back contradicts him being weaker than even Shin Boo for me. But, again, it's just my personal interpretation of this.
Fox666 wrote:And the line where he says that Gohan could take Boo on his own had nothing to do with Boo's insides.
I know, I didn't word what I said properly. Sorry about that.
Fox666 wrote:Goku didn't knew that until he tried it against Pure Boo. At that time Goku believed he could use it for a big period of time, like in the afterlife.
I personally think he knew about it but just didn't fully understand what a big problem is. He basically played around with Fat Boo for a bit in SSjin 3, only trying to distract him long enough for Trunks to get the Dragon Radar, rested a bit on the Lookout, then went SSjin 3 again just to show off and almost collapsed from the exhaustion earlier.
Fox666 wrote:At the point Goku already gave up the idea of leaving it for the next generation, and simply wanted Boo to be destroyed.

Especially because he made it to Earth just to fuse with Gohan, and later with Vegeta.
Gohan was more than strong enough to defeat Booccolo, so him backing down and letting Gohan take care of Boo single-handedly would once again make Gohan the universe's savior.
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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by Fox666 » Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:37 pm

CatouttaHell wrote:
Goku didn't knew that until he tried it against Pure Boo. At that time Goku believed he could use it for a big period of time, like in the afterlife.
I personally think he knew about it but just didn't fully understand what a big problem is. He basically played around with Fat Boo for a bit in SSjin 3, only trying to distract him long enough for Trunks to get the Dragon Radar, rested a bit on the Lookout, then went SSjin 3 again just to show off and almost collapsed from the exhaustion earlier.
That was because the limit of time he had on Earth. Later against Pure Boo he mentions clearly show to have no idea that his power would drop, and also explain:

Goku: “Da-dammit…When I was dead, it was no problem at all…It seems that in the end, becoming a Super Saiyan 3 with a living body eats up an excessive amount of ki…”

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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by Rocketman » Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:13 am

Chou Gohan wrote:I can't help but wonder, where in the world did the "unfused" jazz come from? Is it just a term randomly invented in order to crown Gohan/Goku with a fancy "strongest" title since it can be quite difficult to convince anybody that Vegetto wasn't way stronger than the rest? lol "*Sniff* I can't call him the strongest character because of that darn Vegetto... Wait! I'll say he's the strongest unfused character!" :idea:
I like the cut of this guy's jib.

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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by Miracles » Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:30 am

Herms wrote:I seriously need to make some kind of list of everything Toriyama didn't say/write/design that fans say he did.
You know you are always appreciated.

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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by Kid Buu » Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:35 am

Chou Gohan wrote:
AnimeMaakuo wrote:My friend is wanting to know if Akira Toriyama really "stated" that Ultimate Gohan was the strongest unfused fighter in the Buu saga?
I can't help but wonder, where in the world did the "unfused" jazz come from? Is it just a term randomly invented in order to crown Gohan/Goku with a fancy "strongest" title since it can be quite difficult to convince anybody that Vegetto wasn't way stronger than the rest? lol "*Sniff* I can't call him the strongest character because of that darn Vegetto... Wait! I'll say he's the strongest unfused character!" :idea:
Dude it's all about Goku, the STRONGEST PURE BLOODED SAIYAN CHARACTER.
Dude it's all about Vegeta, the STRONGEST MAJIN CHARACTER.
Dude it's all about Piccolo, the STRONGEST NAMEKIEAN CHARACTER.
Dude it's all about Yamcha, the STRONGEST YAMCHA CHARACTER.
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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by CatouttaHell » Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:51 am

Fox666 wrote:That was because the limit of time he had on Earth. Later against Pure Boo he mentions clearly show to have no idea that his power would drop, and also explain:

Goku: “Da-dammit…When I was dead, it was no problem at all…It seems that in the end, becoming a Super Saiyan 3 with a living body eats up an excessive amount of ki…”
My mistake then. I find it very strange that he still hadn't figured it out by then, even if he hadn't used SSjin 3 while alive, the fact that it devoured the time he had on Earth should have hinted him on this. But that's the Boo Arc for ya.
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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by Fox666 » Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:23 am

It's well known that Goku has gone senile in the last 7 years. :roll:

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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by Sanity's_Theif » Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:24 pm

Fox666 wrote:And can absorb people...
CatouttaHell wrote:I personally that his statement about Shin Boo's power were also him bullshitting, but that's just me.
Vegeta already knew about his Super Saiyan 3, didn't him?

Despite that, take in the context. Goku is not simply saying something to make Vegeta happier, he is telling him they can't go outside because of Evil Boo's power, and risking the lives of Gohan & co they just rescued.

And why would he propose to use the Potara to beat the Evil Boo? Take in mind that until them Goku had no idea that the Super Saiyan 3 had a time limit in the living world.

Lastly, after Gotenks fusion times out inside Boo, why does Goku says "This way, Gohan will be able to beat you even on his own…"?

Overall, this is a very different behavior from what he had against the Pure Majin Boo. He simply goes all out with Super Saiyan 3, and even mention he could take this or the fat Majin Boo...
You know I was believing this until I watched the episode with my brother, and when Goku said they shouldn't go outside, my brother who believes Gohan to be strongest, said, "Well, look at how small they are", then it made sense in a different perspective
Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P10.4-5
Goku: “Hahha—ah! Piccolo’s coming out strong now! Looks like the Fused squirts have returned to normal! You ran out of time! Tooo—oo bad! Your power’s fallen a whole lot. Cheh…I’m a little disappointed. This way, Gohan will be able to beat you even on his own…”
And doesn't this quote suggest Goku's implying he could help? I also recall the old kai implying the same thing, saying something like even if he and Gohan fought together, from what I've seen on the internet, most people consider SS3 Goku excess baggage and a liability against Super Buu to get absorbed

That and doesn't Herms' translation about Kid Buu's history say he lost power through absorption? And then Vegeta remarks that Buu's stronger than he imagined despite only remarking his body size changed, and doesn't Goku say he Kid Buu was toying around with him but could beat him if he powered up to the max for a minute?

It may just be me, but I don't think Ultimate Gohan is THAT much stronger than Goku

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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:39 pm

Sanity's_Theif wrote:You know I was believing this until I watched the episode with my brother, and when Goku said they shouldn't go outside, my brother who believes Gohan to be strongest, said, "Well, look at how small they are", then it made sense in a different perspective
Maybe. I just don't see why Goku would bother citing Boo's power if this was simply based on their tiny size.
And doesn't this quote suggest Goku's implying he could help? I also recall the old kai implying the same thing, saying something like even if he and Gohan fought together, from what I've seen on the internet, most people consider SS3 Goku excess baggage and a liability against Super Buu to get absorbed
I only recall old Kaioshin saying Goku and Gohan would lose if they fought Super Boo 2 (Gotenks) together.
That and doesn't Herms' translation about Kid Buu's history say he lost power through absorption? And then Vegeta remarks that Buu's stronger than he imagined despite only remarking his body size changed, and doesn't Goku say he Kid Buu was toying around with him but could beat him if he powered up to the max for a minute?
Some people believe the "absorption" is referring to both of the Kaioshins, while others believe it's referring to the absorption of Dai Kaioshin. Since there's no plural in Japanese, it can go either way. Goku mentioned that Kid Boo was slowly regenerating to piss them off or something instead of actually toying with them in the fight. And yes, Vegeta does say Goku could wipe out Kid Boo if he gathers his Chi to full-power in Super Saiyan 3.
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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by jackjack » Fri Mar 25, 2011 2:31 pm

"...by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…"
Just want to say that the first absorption most likely didn't lower his power, since he was still uncontrollable prior to absorbing DK.

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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by Fox666 » Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:33 pm

Should be the case, since they mention that Boo's Ki increased in the South Kaioshin absorbed form

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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by Chibi Mystic Gohan » Fri Mar 25, 2011 4:11 pm

Sanity's_Theif wrote:You know I was believing this until I watched the episode with my brother, and when Goku said they shouldn't go outside, my brother who believes Gohan to be strongest, said, "Well, look at how small they are", then it made sense in a different perspective
I think Goku knew he'd return to normal size if they escaped his body. Why would he think they'd be tiny for the rest of their lives? (In fact, I think his line when they grow back to their normal size was something like, "Like I thought, we're back to normal!")
Sanity's_Theif wrote:
Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P10.4-5
Goku: “Hahha—ah! Piccolo’s coming out strong now! Looks like the Fused squirts have returned to normal! You ran out of time! Tooo—oo bad! Your power’s fallen a whole lot. Cheh…I’m a little disappointed. This way, Gohan will be able to beat you even on his own…”

And doesn't this quote suggest Goku's implying he could help? I also recall the old kai implying the same thing, saying something like even if he and Gohan fought together, from what I've seen on the internet, most people consider SS3 Goku excess baggage and a liability against Super Buu to get absorbed
Sounds like he's just saying they won't even have to bother merging with the Potara.
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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by Metrite » Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:02 pm

Chou Gohan wrote:The ironic thing about trying to find evidence of what was intended to be the story by Toriyama is the fact that the real answer would be, "whatever makes the children, and more importantly the editors, all happy." And it is unlikely any of them would be happy with an anticlimactic ending.
This is a good point that is quite true. It is quite ironic that there are people hoping to find things like interviews of Toriyama confirming their "religion" when there is the common mold that all series like Dragon Ball follow. Toriyama would have known people (especially his editors) would want would be for the villain's last form to be the strongest one. The first time I read the Buu saga, I was a bit divided on it because the way things went together to me made it look like Pure Buu was the second or third strongest at first, but when you consider the flow dragon Ball has always gone by, you'd think that the villain's last form would be the strongest. I wouldn't be surprised if it was Toriyama himself who requested all those lines about the last Buu being the strongest be added to anime since the manga was a bit vague.

In a way, the existence of Pure Buu could be likened to the existence of Super Perfect Cell. A plot twist to make the villain stronger so the story could end with a bang, even if it does cause some inconsistencies. I would say Pure Buu's plot twist was actually thought out a bit better and less inconsistent than Super Perfect Cell, though. The build up to it all started when Evil Buu panicked and said, "I will no longer be myself!" to Vegeta. What Evil Buu meant by that was later revealed when Kaioshin explained the affect the absorptions had on Buu and why. Kaioshin said absorptions changed Buu's heart which also caused his power to be reduced. So that means the previous Buus were somewhat controllable, had personality traits like like love for food, and reduced power thanks to absorptions. When Evil Buu turned back into Pure Buu, he had lost the heart he had gained and the reduced power that came with it, resulting in a killing machine that was even more powerful.

As for the one line from Goku inside Buu, it actually makes sense and adds up with the above if you put everything into context. When Goku said, "No matter how normal he becomes, he's still to strong for us to face. If we go out there like we are he'll beat us for sure!" he was correct. When they actually left Buu's body, they didn't regain their size until they were about forty feet away from him. If they had just attempted to leave Buu's body and Buu had not lost his mind from having the other Buu ripped out, then he could have easily killed them before they regained their size. When they did get far enough away from Buu to change back to normal, Goku in relief says, "We did it! Everybody is back to normal!" and then they immediately proceeded to hide the people they had rescued before Buu could notice them. All this adds up to to Goku and Vegeta being unable to win due to a huge handicap. Goku knew that they were inside Buu and that there was no guarantee that they'd return to normal and that they had several helpess folks to protect, and so Goku knew the odds were completely in Buu's favor. There was also an earlier point where Goku showed he was willing to fight an even stronger Buu without fusing. When Rou Kaioshin offered to give Goku his life, rather than rejecting the offer under the claim that it would be pointless, Goku accepted it with the impression that he was to go fight Buu without fusing. This is shown by the fact that Goku immediately stuck his fingers to his head saying he was off right after being revived. Rou Kaioshin then tells him to wait and asks how they can win which leads Goku to ponder for a moment and then say that if him and Gohan fuse they could win for sure to which Rou Kaioshin offers to potaras as a better means of fusing. That shows Goku wasn't scared to fight Evil Buu under normal circumstances that involved no handicaps.

And the end of the series makes the most sense that way, too. Why would Goku be waiting anxiously for ten years for a rematch with the reborn Buu if he already had guys that were way stronger around that were already trained? All he'd have to do is be honest and say, "Gohan, you need to promise to fight me at least once a month or else I'll run away from you and your mother yet again!"

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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by Rocketman » Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:10 pm

Gohan-Buu: "OH GOD, VEGETA PLEASE FUSE WITH ME COME ONNNNN WE'RE FUCKED"
Kid Buu: "D'oh well, maybe I shouldn't have broken the potara, I can still take him tho"

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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by Chou Gohan » Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:49 pm

petewentz wrote:It's just a sub-division, a category. Obviously Tenshinhan/Krillin aren't anywhere near the Saiyans in terms of power, but people still like to debate on who the strongest human is. Or android, or form of Buu. Stuff like that. I get what you're saying, but I don't think anyone had that kind of mindset going into claiming "unfused."
lol I can understand that. I just could never imagine any official source, especially Toriyama, using random fan-made character-categories, especially in an interview.
Kid Buu wrote:Dude it's all about Goku, the STRONGEST PURE BLOODED SAIYAN CHARACTER.
Dude it's all about Vegeta, the STRONGEST MAJIN CHARACTER.
Dude it's all about Piccolo, the STRONGEST NAMEKIEAN CHARACTER.
Dude it's all about Yamcha, the STRONGEST YAMCHA CHARACTER.
No, it's all about Mr. Satan, the Strongest lied-to-the-world-about-beating-major-villains-when-he-really-did-not-and-became-rich-and-famous-off-it character!
Rocketman wrote:Gohan-Buu: "OH GOD, VEGETA PLEASE FUSE WITH ME COME ONNNNN WE'RE FUCKED"
Kid Buu: "D'oh well, maybe I shouldn't have broken the potara, I can still take him tho"
*Goku blows off Cell's head only watch him regerate*
Cell: "I can regerate as long as the core in my head remains!"

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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by Fox666 » Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:06 pm

Metrite wrote:Toriyama would have known people (especially his editors) would want would be for the villain's last form to be the strongest one. The first time I read the Buu saga, I was a bit divided on it because the way things went together to me made it look like Pure Buu was the second or third strongest at first, but when you consider the flow dragon Ball has always gone by, you'd think that the villain's last form would be the strongest. I wouldn't be surprised if it was Toriyama himself who requested all those lines about the last Buu being the strongest be added to anime since the manga was a bit vague.
Even if it the natural flow of an arc is the the final villain being the strongest, there are several hints that show this wasn't the case with Pure Boo. I.e. Goku's line “Oh, I know! You’ll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can fight.”
Metrite wrote:There was also an earlier point where Goku showed he was willing to fight an even stronger Buu without fusing. When Rou Kaioshin offered to give Goku his life, rather than rejecting the offer under the claim that it would be pointless, Goku accepted it with the impression that he was to go fight Buu without fusing.
Are you talking about Gotenks-absorbed Evil Boo?

There is a brief moment which Goku goes Super Saiyan 3 to confront him:

Image Image

As you see, he wasn't just stronger than Goku, but was in a different level which Goku don't stand a chance. And of course this already proves that Pure Boo wasn't the strongest Majin Boo.

Evil Boo alone being stronger than Goku doesn't make much of a difference.

And the whole idea behind Evil Boo's power is that Gotenks surpassed Goku, and Evil Boo was even better than Gotenks (remember that Evil Boo only realized the existence of someone more powerfull than him when he felt Gohan's Ki). So there is a logic behind Goku telling Vegeta that they don't stand a chance against Evil Boo, Toriyama knew what he was doing.

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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by petewentz » Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:25 pm

Fox666 wrote:Even if it the natural flow of an arc is the the final villain being the strongest, there are several hints that show this wasn't the case with Pure Boo. I.e. Goku's line “Oh, I know! You’ll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can fight.”
Metrite wrote:There was also an earlier point where Goku showed he was willing to fight an even stronger Buu without fusing. When Rou Kaioshin offered to give Goku his life, rather than rejecting the offer under the claim that it would be pointless, Goku accepted it with the impression that he was to go fight Buu without fusing.
Are you talking about Gotenks-absorbed Evil Boo?
Right! I think it's a little pointless to say "Toriyama told the anime staff to add those lines" in and what not. Everyone knows the intense pressure he was under during the final chapters of Dragonball, you can find the interviews on this site. It just seems that if he was going to make Goku the hero again, he wouldn't suddenly make Kid Buu stronger than Super Buu WITHOUT giving Goku some sort of power increase as well. It's far more likely, in a real world explanation, that in order to make Goku the hero once again, he had to scale back Buu's power just a tad...like you say, Toriyama knew what he was doing...

Merite, you are speculating a lot with that theory...it's not vague in the manga at all that Super Buu>Kid Buu, especially when you have simple logic like:
Goku says at full power he can beat Kid Buu(vegeta confirms)
Goku>Kid Buu
Goku says he can't beat Super Buu at all
Super Buu>Goku
Super Buu>Kid Buu
I don't understand what is so hard for people to understand that

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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by Herms » Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:22 pm

Metrite wrote:Toriyama would have known people (especially his editors) would want would be for the villain's last form to be the strongest one.
For the record, Toriyama only had one editor during the Boo period, Fuyuto Takeda, who he described (in the Jump Remix of Toriyama Blank Theater) as being fairly lenient compared to his first two editors. Toriyama had three different editors over the course of the series (Kazuhiko Torishima, Yuu Kondou, and Takeda), but he only had a single one at any given time.
petewentz wrote:Everyone knows the intense pressure he was under during the final chapters of Dragonball, you can find the interviews on this site.
Depends. What pressure do you mean and what interviews are you talking about?
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