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Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by Perfect » Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:50 pm

CatouttaHell wrote:
Dabooyaka wrote:
CatouttaHell wrote:No he didn't. Some Gohan fanboy made that up to try to counter the fact that SSjin 3 Goku >>>>> Chou Gohan in the Anime, not realising the fact that the Anime is Toei's story, not Toriyama's/
I hope you are kidding with that statement, Gohan is the strongest in both the Manga and the Anime. Nothing in the anime hints at Goku being stronger than Gohan. Gohan has been the strongest since the Cell games.
SSjin 3 Goku was even with Chibi Boo who was stated TWICE to be leagues beyond Boohan, who would rape Chou Gohan.
By this logic, Freeza saying he's the strongest is true.
By this logic, Cell saying he's the strongest makes it true.
By this logic, Vegeta calling Goku number one means he's the strongest.
Context as well as plot clues should override any contradicting statement as the plot is greater than a misread/implicated quotation.
Fox666 wrote:It seems you have pissed a lot of people on this forum, and I am quite sure they would like to call you stupid and say that's the designated adjectives for you. But they don't do that because of there are rules in this community.

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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by CatouttaHell » Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:52 pm

Perfect wrote:By this logic, Freeza saying he's the strongest is true.
By this logic, Cell saying he's the strongest makes it true.
By this logic, Vegeta calling Goku number one means he's the strongest.
Context as well as plot clues should override any contradicting statement as the plot is greater than a misread/implicated quotation.
You can't be serious. Some random arrogant individual proclaiming they're the strongest is completely different from the omniscient narrator declaring someone was the strongest after all was said and done.
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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by Metrite » Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:54 pm

Fox666 wrote:Even if it the natural flow of an arc is the the final villain being the strongest, there are several hints that show this wasn't the case with Pure Boo.
Well, that basically means that it doesn't matter what the way, obvious not not, that the author would take the story is, but that in the end only the reader's personal interpretation matters. That's fine, but since the main topic was about if Toriyama ever said something on it, I just figured the appropriate answer would be to point out the way it would be "meant" to be, even if a reader's personal interpretation doesn't match it.
Fox666 wrote:Are you talking about Gotenks-absorbed Evil Boo?

There is a brief moment which Goku goes Super Saiyan 3 to confront him:

*snip*
*snip*

As you see, he wasn't just stronger than Goku, but was in a different level which Goku don't stand a chance.
What does that have to do with what I mentioned? The fact remains that Goku was under the initial impression that he was to fight Buu without fusion. That means he must have been capable of something. Otherwise his response to Rou Kaioshin would have been, "Don't do it! I'll be annihilated in an instant! You'd be throwing your life in the garbage!" Instead he accepts the offer and then sticks his fingers right to his head to go and fight Buu without fusion. And we never see how he would have done. All we know is he was willing to sacrifice Rou Kaioshin's life to go fight Buu which means he must have been capable of at least making some kind of difference.
Merite, you are speculating a lot with that theory...it's not vague in the manga at all that Super Buu>Kid Buu
I can understand getting the impression that Pure Buu was not the strongest Buu of all, but the manga explains who was stronger between Evil Buu and Pure Buu, at least. As I said above, the build up to it all started when Evil Buu panicked and said, "I will no longer be myself!" to Vegeta. What Evil Buu meant by that was later revealed when Kaioshin explained the affect the absorptions had on Buu and why. Kaioshin said his heart, which through absoption had even caused his power to be reduced, has returned to it's original state. Absorptions changed Buu's heart which also caused his power to be reduced. That's why Evil Buu freaked out and said he wouldn't be himself. He'd lose the heart that made him who he was which would essentially mean he no longer exists. And by not having that heart, he also no longer had the reduced power that it came with. So that means the previous Buus were somewhat controllable, had personality traits like like love for food, and reduced power thanks to the new heart that was gained via absorptions.

And why would Goku be waiting anxiously for ten years for a rematch with the reborn Buu if he already had guys that were way stronger around that were already trained? I guess he just wanted to be a jerk and thought, "Gohan could give me a way better fight than Buu did, but I think I'll go train the reborn Buu just so I'll have an excuse to run away, again."
Last edited by Metrite on Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:57 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by p123 » Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:55 pm

In the manga, Gohan is implied to be head and shoulders above every other non fused fighter.

Gohan should be leagues above SSJ3 Goku/SSJ3 Vegeta and Uub at the tournament.

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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by Perfect » Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:56 pm

I'm dead serious; apparently you didn't catch the analogy. Those statements all have two things in common with the narrator's dialogue. They all contradict the general plot-line and they're not true. The anime is based off the manga, given the plot is the same with filler increments. The dialogue about Pure Buu is a misread line of context from the manga. Anything else contradicts the plot given that nothing would make sense (Toei was after all following the manga, not making "Goku's barnyard pals").
Fox666 wrote:It seems you have pissed a lot of people on this forum, and I am quite sure they would like to call you stupid and say that's the designated adjectives for you. But they don't do that because of there are rules in this community.

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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by p123 » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:00 pm

Filler has no bearing on the manga.

Manga indicates...


Buuhan > Buutenks > Buff Buu > Bucccolo > Super Buu >>>>>> Kid Buu > Fat Buu > Evil Buu > Good Buu > Initial Fat Buu


All of those statements you brought up are contradicted.

Vegeta's " I am the best " is contradicted by Freeza's existence as well as Freeza's Empire.

Cell is killed by SSJ2 Kid Gohan

etc etc...

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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by CatouttaHell » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:00 pm

Toei's Anime is its own story, different from Toriyama's story. There's lots of things different in the Anime, like Paikuhan and Olive existing, or Boohan fighting SSjin Goku and SSjin Vegeta. And in Toei's Anime the omniscient narrator declares, as soon as all of the fighting is said and done, that Chibi Boo was the strongest Boo.
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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by Perfect » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:04 pm

CatouttaHell wrote:Toei's Anime is its own story, different from Toriyama's story. There's lots of things different in the Anime, like Paikuhan and Olive existing, or Boohan fighting SSjin Goku and SSjin Vegeta. And in Toei's Anime the omniscient narrator declares, as soon as all of the fighting is said and done, that Chibi Boo was the strongest Boo.
Toei was following the manga in the best that they could. My point is, they weren't trying to go in a completely different direction. They were using the best of their abilities to follow their comic book doppelganger. Through this the anime added filler incarnates to help the series progress or to allow the manga to "catch up". There's nothing in the manga or anime that supports Pure Buu to be the strongest, hence why I made this point (Plot wise). When plot heavily (Very heavily, might as well have said Cell was the strongest) contradicts a statement or two, what do you go with?

Edit: @pl123

Who're you talking to? Because I'm fairly sure neither of us were addressing you. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Last edited by Perfect on Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Fox666 wrote:It seems you have pissed a lot of people on this forum, and I am quite sure they would like to call you stupid and say that's the designated adjectives for you. But they don't do that because of there are rules in this community.

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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by p123 » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:04 pm

Agreed...

Anime - Kid Buu strongest Buu

Manga - Buuhan strongest Buu


So we are in agreeance on that?

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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by CatouttaHell » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:08 pm

Perfect wrote:Toei was following the manga in the best that they could. My point is, they weren't trying to go in a completely different direction. They were using the best of their abilities to follow their comic book doppelganger. Through this the anime added filler incarnates to help the series progress or to allow the manga to "catch up". There's nothing in the manga or anime that supports Pure Buu to be the strongest, hence why I made this point (Plot wise). When plot heavily (Very heavily, might as well have said Cell was the strongest) contradicts a statement or two, what do you go with?
IMHO, Chaotic Boohan was just part of Chibi Boo's power coming forth due to Boohan's rage being so out of control that his inner Chibi Boo took over. So I consider that evidence enough that Chibi Boo is WAY above the other Boos and likely above SSjin Vegetto. But that's just my interpretation. I'm not going to convince you otherwise and you're not going to convince me otherwise.
p123 wrote:Agreed...

Anime - Kid Buu strongest Buu

Manga - Buuhan strongest Buu


So we are in agreeance on that?
I am.
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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by Perfect » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:11 pm

There's a problem there. Toei was just following the manga with that. They weren't going,
"Let's change the character all together and add a completely new sub plot of how Buu is supposed to be doing this whereas in the manga we're supposed to be following hes just regressing to his original form from Vegeta removing Mr. Buu!"

You're right you won't convince me. Since there's way too much plot evidence that contradicts the narrator's statements. If you want to agree to disagree, then okay.
Last edited by Perfect on Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by p123 » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:11 pm

Ok, yea I got the feeling I wasn't being addressed. Glad that's confirmed. Yea, more or less just trying to jump into the convo...


I also feel TOEI's Kid Buu > Buuhan, effects Movie 13's placement of Goku, but not Movie 12's placement of Goku...


Movie 12 Goku more or less is AT's Buu Saga Goku

Movie 13 Goku is TOEI HAXED Buu Saga Goku...

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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by CatouttaHell » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:15 pm

Movie 13 Goku's utterly illogical behaviour mirrors how the Boo Arc plays out if you consider the filler to be canon, so it works for me. He gets beat up, lets Gotenks and Gohan get beat up and just panics madly. Then out of nowhere pulls his SSjin 3 power out and ends the fight easily.

I guess he's just impossibly powerful and he now gets thrills from letting things go as much to hell as possible before busting out his ultimate power and ending the villain or some shit.
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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by p123 » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:24 pm

Yea.. I think this is how Movie 13 thinks...


SSJ Vegetto >>>> Kid Buu = SSJ3 Goku > Base Vegetto > Buuhan



With Hirudegram somewhere between SSj3 Goku and SSJ Vegetto..


Real crappy stuff man. I hate Movie 13...

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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by CatouttaHell » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:45 pm

Base Vegetto isn't above Boohan. Boohan declares after their fight that Vegetto still hasn't surpassed him and he responds by turning SSjin. This and the incident where SSjin Vegetto actually freaks and teleports away from Boo's Kamikaze Ghosts at the last second to escape and the incident where Chaotic Boohan overpowers Vegetto make me think Vegetto is insanely overrated in terms of power (regarding the Anime) but that's just me.
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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by p123 » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:50 pm

Are you Infamous 666? You have similar logic man. Lol... Twin brother maybe?

Yes, that's the same point Infamous666 brought up on Neo, who by the way, is one of the best DB posters out there, and you should def check him out. Dude is very knowledgable, and is by far theeeee most unbiased DB poster out there.

Anyway, yea, that's plausible.


But even so, that would only change it to Buuhan ~ Base Vegetto or Buuhan >= Base Vegetto..


It also could be typical villian arrogance as well...But it doesn't matter, I'm a manga purist and I don't see Base Vegetto anywhere near Buuhan at all...

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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by CatouttaHell » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:57 pm

I am not Infamous666 and I don't think I've heard of him before.

It's just an opinion but I just can't see Base Vegetto being as strong as Boohan. Boohan seemed to be in control in their fight and it was only really against SSjin Vegetto that he was losing his shit. It also makes things really bloated otherwise as I operate by a GT Base Goku > Chibi Boo > SSjin Vegetto system.
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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by Fox666 » Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:45 pm

Metrite wrote:What does that have to do with what I mentioned? The fact remains that Goku was under the initial impression that he was to fight Buu without fusion. That means he must have been capable of something. Otherwise his response to Rou Kaioshin would have been, "Don't do it! I'll be annihilated in an instant! You'd be throwing your life in the garbage!" Instead he accepts the offer and then sticks his fingers right to his head to go and fight Buu without fusion. And we never see how he would have done. All we know is he was willing to sacrifice Rou Kaioshin's life to go fight Buu which means he must have been capable of at least making some kind of difference.
I am sorry, but can't understand your logic here.

Goku knew he couldn't fight Boo. He bring the Potara (and used it) because he couldn't fight Boo. He would simply throw it to Gohan, and when Gohan weared it, they would get fused. As the Potara fall off, Boo moved towards Goku, and after turning SSJ3 he was still very scared Boo.

It's clear as water that Goku was miles behind of Majin Boo after he absorbed Gotenks. It's simply impossible to be the other way.
Metrite wrote:I can understand getting the impression that Pure Buu was not the strongest Buu of all, but the manga explains who was stronger between Evil Buu and Pure Buu, at least. As I said above, the build up to it all started when Evil Buu panicked and said, "I will no longer be myself!" to Vegeta. What Evil Buu meant by that was later revealed when Kaioshin explained the affect the absorptions had on Buu and why. Kaioshin said his heart, which through absoption had even caused his power to be reduced, has returned to it's original state. Absorptions changed Buu's heart which also caused his power to be reduced. That's why Evil Buu freaked out and said he wouldn't be himself. He'd lose the heart that made him who he was which would essentially mean he no longer exists. And by not having that heart, he also no longer had the reduced power that it came with. So that means the previous Buus were somewhat controllable, had personality traits like like love for food, and reduced power thanks to the new heart that was gained via absorptions.
The explanation given by Kaioshin was meant to be about the fat Majin Boo revived by Babidi. The Dai Kaioshin had a kind heart, which reduced Majin Boo's power and he gained a calmer personality

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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by Metrite » Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:12 pm

Fox666 wrote:I am sorry, but can't understand your logic here.

Goku knew he couldn't fight Boo. He bring the Potara (and used it) because he couldn't fight Boo. He would simply throw it to Gohan, and when Gohan weared it, they would get fused. As the Potara fall off, Boo moved towards Goku, and after turning SSJ3 he was still very scared Boo.

It's clear as water that Goku was miles behind of Majin Boo after he absorbed Gotenks. It's simply impossible to be the other way.
The whole point is that, regardless of what did end up happening, Goku showed he was initially willing to fight Buu without fusing. At that moment where he had his fingers to his head saying he was off, he was intending to teleport to Buu with no potaras or or intent of fusing. So what was he going to do? The only thing he could have done, if he had actually teleported there at that moment like he was about to do, is face Buu himself.
Metrite wrote:The explanation given by Kaioshin was meant to be about the fat Majin Boo revived by Babidi. The Dai Kaioshin had a kind heart, which reduced Majin Boo's power and he gained a calmer personality
Kaioshin said Buu's heart, which had caused his power to be reduced, had changed back. Which Buu's heart had just changed back? Evil Buu. So which Buu had a heart that caused reduced power? Evil Buu. That is the whole reason Evil Buu said, "I won't be myself, anymore!"

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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by petewentz » Sat Mar 26, 2011 1:36 am

This isn't a debate, Goku states his full power is enough to defeat Kid Buu, yet says there is no way they can win against Super Buu("We'll be killed"). It's not rocket science, yet to even shed doubt on this simple logic you have to go through hoops and around the moon and say this and that, the Kai absorptions blah blah....it's stated the DK lowered his power, no mention of the SK doing that, etc, etc...it's just simple logic.

As I've said, if a character makes a statement and it's not contradicted, then it's a fact of the source material. Green haired super saiyan analogy still applies.

Goku says his full power is enough, it's enough. Barring a contradiction, like Kid Buu being suppressed(despite no form of Buu suppressing their Ki ever) then what Goku says is a fact.

I don't see the logic in the argument for Kid Buu? Is it because of that one panel where they say "isn't he getting stronger"? Because it's clearly referring to Buff Buu, the form Majin Buu took after absorbing the South Kai(stated in the manga)...

sooo, yea don't see it.

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