Does Gotenks have SSJ2?

[Senzu_Bean]

The Daizenshuu statement is too much open for interpretation.

Really?! It clearly says Gotenks surpassed Vegeta and co. after training in the RoSaT. How is that open for interpretation?

I don't see why care about the Daizenshuu entry, it doesn't tell anything special.

It pretty much answers what you guys have been arguing for the past 5 pages. Isn't it special?

[Kaboom]

The Daizenshuu statement is too much open for interpretation.

Really?! It clearly says Gotenks surpassed Vegeta and co. after training in the RoSaT. How is that open for interpretation?

Because like I mentioned, the comment doesn't specify which form. There's a big difference between base Gotenks, Super Saiyan Gotenks, and Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, and the Daizenshuu entry could be referring to any one of them, or all three. For all we know, him "surpassing Vegeta and the others" could solely be due to him attaining SSj3, and he was never stronger than any of the SSj2s without it (or without his own SSj2... hooray, we've come full-circle).

[Senzu_Bean]

Gotenks is Gotenks. Before training he was a Super Saiyan and he didn't surpassed Vegeta and co. until training. Period!

[Kaboom]

Gotenks is Gotenks. Before training he was a Super Saiyan and he didn't surpassed Vegeta and co. until training. Period!

Why are you acting defensive? I'm agreeing with you, but also explaining the potential ambiguity.

[Fox666]

The Daizenshuu statement is too much open for interpretation.

Really?! It clearly says Gotenks surpassed Vegeta and co. after training in the RoSaT. How is that open for interpretation?

What do you mean? I muself don't care much about that line, but other users have said this means "Gotenks in his SSJ/base form is stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta"

I don't see why care about the Daizenshuu entry, it doesn't tell anything special.

It pretty much answers what you guys have been arguing for the past 5 pages. Isn't it special?

It doesn't answer anything, that's my point...

[jackjack]

Piccolo wants to test Gotenks because he doesn't know exactly how strong Gotenks is.

Piccolo wants to test his movement; this is stated, my friend.

If Gohan can be confident in his own movement, despite being piss-pants afraid of Boo's power just earlier, then Piccolo wanting to test his movement isn't enough to say "he doesn't know exactly how strong Gotenks is".

Piccolo cannot make a veredict about Gotenks strength.

Yes he can, by sensing Gotenks' ki level, which is the first thing he comments on.

When it comes to Gotenks in his base form, probably Piccolo simply assumed that a saiyan in his base form would never stand a chance...

Again, this is incorrect; you are basically saying Piccolo's suddenly lost his ki sensing ability for no reason whatsoever, when Gotenks' ki is noted to be comparable to a storm of power.

He simply wasn't strong enough in base, therefore, testing his movement would've been meaningless.

I don't think Piccolo should make a statement for the reader about Gotenk's strength every time he transforms...

He doesn't have to, but...
-senses base Gotenks and says he's not strong enough.
-senses SSJ Gotenks and wants to see his movement (implying he's strong enough).
-senses a stronger Boo and says he's not strong enough.

Simple logic tells us base Gotenks < Fat Boo < SSJ Gotenks < Super Boo

As far I am concerned, the character don't even exist. So I think it's quite of a jump to argue about how strong he would be...

Didn't stop Goku from telling us about how strong he would be.

[p123]

Jack Jack makes a clear cut logical point.


Piccolo is very well aware of Gotenks power.


Piccolo thinks that Base Gotenks has no chance with Fat Buu. Piccolo knows what it takes to deal with Fat Buu, and that is SSJ3 level of power.

Piccolo thinks that SSJ Gotenks has incredible power. And has no problem with Gotenks taking on Buu.


This is a pretty open and shut case of Piccolo's POV on Pre Rosat Gotenks power.

[dbgtFO]

The Daizenshuu statement is a group statement. Before RoSaT Gotenks had not yet surpassed "Vegeta and the others" since "the others" includes Goku, but after training he has surpassed Goku and thus surpassing "Vegeta and the others" becomes a fact.(And personally I just think they are talking about base Gotenks here)
Similar to Goku, when arriving on Namek, who had surpassed all but one member of the Ginyu Force. Without Kaio-ken(or his near death power up) Goku has not surpassed the Ginyu Force, but with it he does.

At least that's the only way for it to work with what we have from the manga, unless it's just a retcon or something and Toriyama didn't want Gotenks to be that strong anyways.

And I'll have to say I've always wondered why it never includes Goku in those comparisons(Vegeta shouldn't be relevant by this point in the story). I'm a little bit suspicious about the Daizenshuus' intentions about the power statements relating to the Buu Arc.
To me it just seems like, they didn't want to admit that Goku was nothing compared to Evil Buu, Gotenks and Gohan.

[Fox666]

I wonder, if the Daizenshuu doesn't refer to any specific form when it says that Gotenks surpassed Vegeta and the others, shouldn't the logical interpretation be that it is refering to the strongest possible form of these characters?

I think it's the natural interpretation, when Vegeta says that he and Goku probably surpassed Gohan after 7 years, we don't question which form he is referring to.

Of course Gotenks as a Super Saiyan 3 being stronger than anyone else is quite obvious. But usually the generic descriptions of the Daizenshuu keep a reserved kine.

[petewentz]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Goku clearly state a few times that Gotenks is comparable in strength to himself?

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/drag ... 40&page=48

Of course, this statement is misleading and many say this could be a bluff on his part...but I don't think Goku would be bluffing with the intention of the boys actually beating Buu...

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/drag ... 40&page=63

Here he states there's no way they can lose if they fuse. You can't say he was referring to their ssj3 power because up until that point, he didn't know it existed. It's obvious he was referring to their max power at the time, which would have been super saiyan.

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/drag ... 1&page=102

He stands in disbelief at ssj3.

Anyway, I think this manga evidence coupled with the Daizenshuu is enough to confirm that ssj Gotenks=Fat Buu/ssj3 Goku. His base form being equal to SSJ2 Vegeta is a little questionable and requires a lot of speculation, and he did take a beating from Fat Buu, the same beating Vegeta took. Besides, the scene was for comical effect.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Toriyama needs to be reminded that female Kaio and Kaioshin do exist because he actually designed a few.

Isn't there a theory that even though Kaio and Kaioshin are asexual, some just look male and some look female? Like how all the Namekians look masculine and the old Kaioshin was attracted to women, even Namekians and Kaioshin ae asexual?

[Kaboom]

Perhaps. But that seems kind of overcomplicated and contradictory to how they were designed. Why draw a banana and then later pretend that bananas don't exist, and that some apples just LOOK like bananas?

Dang, I made myself hungry from my own analogy.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Perhaps. But that seems kind of overcomplicated and contradictory to how they were designed. Why draw a banana and then later pretend that bananas don't exist, and that some apples just LOOK like bananas?

Dang, I made myself hungry from my own analogy.

Meh. It's just a theory to do away with Toriyama's whatever.

[p123]

For the SSJ Gotenks = Fat Buu guys, I would def use their lack of mention of either power being felt on Kaioshin's planet as evidence...

[Kaboom]

For the SSJ Gotenks = Fat Buu guys, I would def use their lack of mention of either power being felt on Kaioshin's planet as evidence...

Y'know, I never thought of that. Any power comparable to SSj3 Goku's is enough that it actually grabs the attention of those in the Kaioshin realm. Goku could apparently feel Gotenks' power from there, as he mentioned that it had disappeared when they entered the RoSAT, but in context it seemed as if he was already keeping watch on it anyway.

[p123]

Ah, that is a good point. That would imply SSJ Gotenks is SSj3 Goku tier doesn't it?

It's just interesting though that SSJ Gotenks doesn't get the same treatment as everyone else...

SSJ3 Goku/ Super Buu / Gohan all get the special Kaioshin-Earth connection statements. Then AT has to go ahead and ruin it with Kaioshin's statement about the humans being killed, but previous to that, I would hold the SSJ3 Goku + needed.


So then Goku suggesting he can't feel Gotenks anymore, suggests he could previously, which would suggest that Gotenks is SSj3 tier then right?

[Kaboom]

So then Goku suggesting he can't feel Gotenks anymore, suggests he could previously, which would suggest that Gotenks is SSj3 tier then right?

Well, nobody was paying it any mind until Super Boo appeared, which grabbed both Goku and Kaioshin's attention again. SSj Gotenks' first successful Fusion and test-flight around the earth was some time before that, but didn't. So Goku was probably just paying closer attention after Super Boo appeared, to see what happened.

[p123]

That's a good point. Paying attention is a qualifier at times. Not all the time. But sometimes...

Like how Super Buu sensed Gohan during his anger burst, meanwhile, no one else did. Or how Gohan sensed Dende, but Piccolo didn't . Paying attention is kind of like what's going on? But it makes sense, when you have tremendous threats such as Super Buu right in front of you...

Almost like they get Kaioshin/Dabura disease in dealing with ki sensing...

[Infamous_666]

Goku says multiple times that Gotenks will definitely defeat Fat Boo.

He even goes as far as to say that Gotenks should not go into the RoSaT because he might need to in the future, which I think clearly suggests that Goku thinks Gotenks can beat Fat Boo Pre-RoSaT.

I personally think SSJ Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) > Fat Boo is the most likely case by a pretty wide margin.

Now for the more hypothetical views.

I think Goku telling Piccolo that he told Fat Boo that someone stronger than him would come in two days (Gotenks) and with that statement never being hinted at being contradicted by any character, I feel that it makes SSJ Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) > SSJ3 Goku the most likely case.

This is one of the most complex explanations but I'll try to explain it briefly.

I feel that at the end of the conversation with Goku, Piccolo thinks SSJ3 Goku (All-Out) > Fat Boo.

Piccolo seems to have some sort of standard when considering whether or not Gotenks can beat Fat Boo.

I feel that this standard is most likely SSJ3 Goku (All-Out) > Fat Boo (i.e. Gotenks needs to be at least as strong as Goku if he is to win) based on that.

Herms or another translator can correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that all-out is used when Piccolo asks Goku if he had gone all out, could he have won as well as when Goku says he is going to go all out from the start against Kid Boo.

The thing that makes me doubt a bit is this bit about Goku storing ki for a minute. Bluntly, imo:

SSJ3 Goku (Ki Stored for 1 Minute) ? SSJ Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) > SSJ3 Goku (All-Out)

P knows how I feel about the guidebooks... I feel there are a lot of contradictions between the Daiz and the manga which calls its credibility into question for me so I usually prefer using a manga information only approach. I feel that pretty much always, the manga gives us all of the information we need for this kind of stuff. You just need to be as unbiased as possible if you even want to hope to begin to see it.

[p123]

Thanks for explaining the issue Infamous. You always do better than I do, good to have you come stop by over here, definitely get a vastly different approach over here, but it's good to always hear different perspectives...