.

[Rocketman]

I operate by a GT Base Goku > Chibi Boo > SSjin Vegetto system.

And I'm the crazy one.

[Metrite]

It's not rocket science, yet to even shed doubt on this simple logic you have to go through hoops and around the moon and say this and that, the Kai absorptions blah blah....it's stated the DK lowered his power, no mention of the SK doing that, etc, etc...it's just simple logic.

Judging from this, it seems you go by that mirrored, junky, not-translated-from-Japanese manga that has been haunting the internet for quite some time. Does it say something like, "Absorbing Dai Kaioshin made Buu weaker and gentle."? Dai Kaioshin's name isn't even mentioned in that panel. What is actually stated there in the manga is that Buu's heart, which changed via absorption and caused his power to be reduced, has changed back. It was referring to Evil Buu changing back to Pure Buu. That goes right along with Evil Buu saying he wouldn't be himself anymore. Evil Buu still had the heart (that caused reduced power) that made him a different person from the original Buu.

[Fox666]

From Herm's translation, better than any licensed translation

Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally complete…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

As far I can understand, Kaioshin is talking about how his power decreased when he absorbed Dai Kaioshin.

This shouldn't be the case of Evil Boo. We have seen several cases which a Majin Boo absorbed someone less evil than himself and became stronger, i.e.
- pure evil wacky Boo absorbing the good fat Boo;
- absorbing Gotenks (he isn't that bad);
- absorbing Gohan
In all these cases, the Evil Boo got stronger, still you could say he got more gentle even if by little

So you see, because Pure Boo is more chaotic than Evil Boo, doesn't necessarily mean he is stronger. This only apply to one specific case

[petewentz]

Judging from this, it seems you go by that mirrored, junky, not-translated-from-Japanese manga that has been haunting the internet for quite some time. Does it say something like, "Absorbing Dai Kaioshin made Buu weaker and gentle."? Dai Kaioshin's name isn't even mentioned in that panel. What is actually stated there in the manga is that Buu's heart, which changed via absorption and caused his power to be reduced, has changed back. It was referring to Evil Buu changing back to Pure Buu. That goes right along with Evil Buu saying he wouldn't be himself anymore. Evil Buu still had the heart (that caused reduced power) that made him a different person from the original Buu.

Are you even trying anymore? Goku states he can beat Kid Buu at full power, never achieves full power, Vegeta confirms that if he could he would win...both can sense Ki fairly accurately and there is no contradiction to their statement. Goku says Super Buu will kill them if they fight...

it's simple logic...

Goku>Kid Buu
Super Buu>Goku
SuperBuu>KidBuu

That's my point exactly, you guys go through hoops to make your point. "Well, in THIS translation there is no mention of THIS, and there is none of THAT"...yet in all translations, the basic logic provided previously holds up...

[Metrite]

From Herm's translation, better than any licensed translation

Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally complete…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

As far I can understand, Kaioshin is talking about how his power decreased when he absorbed Dai Kaioshin.

That pretty much confirms what I had said before. Even that translation mentions his heart, which was the reason he had reduced power, had changed back. The heart that had just changed back to the way it was was Evil Buu's, so that means Evil Buu still had that same heart, which goes right along with what Evil Buu said about not being himself any longer.

Are you even trying anymore? Goku states he can beat Kid Buu at full power, never achieves full power, Vegeta confirms that if he could he would win...both can sense Ki fairly accurately and there is no contradiction to their statement. Goku says Super Buu will kill them if they fight...

it's simple logic...

Goku>Kid Buu
Super Buu>Goku
SuperBuu>KidBuu

That's my point exactly, you guys go through hoops to make your point. "Well, in THIS translation there is no mention of THIS, and there is none of THAT"...yet in all translations, the basic logic provided previously holds up...

So you don't care about what it actually says since it wouldn't be line with your view. It, like other things, would be like a contradiction to what you view as the only possible view on what Goku said in Buu and so shouldn't matter. I already explained why the context there shows they couldn't win due to circumstances. But I guess you'd say any other view on that line besides your personal view would just be illogical? We may as well just disregard both those lines.

Even disregarding Kaioshin's line, there is the fact that all the Kaioshins were significantly weaker than ssj Gohan. So since South Kaioshin would be like a drop in a bucket, that must mean that there must not be any significant difference between Pure Buu and Evil Buu.

And does Goku only fight when he's sure he can win? If so, why did he accept Rou Kaioshin's life offer and then immediately stick his fingers right to his head prepared to teleport to the battle with Evil Buu with no potaras or intent to fuse? Was he just wanting to get killed in a flash to make fun of Rou Kaioshin for throwing his life in the garbage?

Why was the Genki Dama considered the best idea by everybody including Gohan? Why was everybody acting like it was the last hope? And if Gohan was ungodly superior to Pure Buu, shouldn't his energy alone have been far more than enough for the Genki Dama?

Why did Vegeta say that it would be the end of everything if Pure Buu ever showed up again? And don't say he just meant, "He'll blow up the world right away," because Goku's response was that he'd keep training so that if it ever does happen again, he'll be ready to fight him again. So he meant in terms of who could stand up to him.

And why would Goku be anxiously awaiting the day he could fight the reborn Buu if he already had people around that were way, way stronger all along? Shouldn't Gohan or Gotenks have been a much more exciting challenge?

I guess the best answer would be that all details that disagree in any way like these are just glaring plot holes?

[Rocketman]

Even disregarding Kaioshin's line, there is the fact that all the Kaioshins were significantly weaker than ssj Gohan. So since South Kaioshin would be like a drop in a bucket, that must mean that there must not be any significant difference between Pure Buu and Evil Buu.

And does Goku only fight when he's sure he can win? If so, why did he accept Rou Kaioshin's life offer and then immediately stick his fingers right to his head prepared to teleport to the battle with Evil Buu with no potaras or intent to fuse? Was he just wanting to get killed in a flash to make fun of Rou Kaioshin for throwing his life in the garbage?

Why was the Genki Dama considered the best idea by everybody including Gohan? Why was everybody acting like it was the last hope? And if Gohan was ungodly superior to Pure Buu, shouldn't his energy alone have been far more than enough for the Genki Dama?

Why did Vegeta say that it would be the end of everything if Pure Buu ever showed up again? And don't say he just meant, "He'll blow up the world right away," because Goku's response was that he'd keep training so that if it ever does happen again, he'll be ready to fight him again. So he meant in terms of who could stand up to him.

And why would Goku be anxiously awaiting the day he could fight the reborn Buu if he already had people around that were way, way stronger all along? Shouldn't Gohan or Gotenks have been a much more exciting challenge?

I guess the best answer would be that all details that disagree in any way like these are just glaring plot holes?

No, the real answer is ~GOKU~. Vegetto's defusion marks the boundary between Z and GT.

[CatouttaHell]

And I'm the crazy one.

SSjin Vegetto is briefly overpowered by Chaotic Boohan and has to struggle to regain control. I personally believe Chaotic Boohan is part of Chibi Boo's suppressed power coming through, so this puts Chibi Boo above SSjin Vegetto for me. And GT Goku is shown to be sparring with Oob, whose training is complete, in base. Nothing crazy about that.

And before someone says "that's only in the Anime," I realise that.

[Fox666]

So you don't care about what it actually says since it wouldn't be line with your view. It, like other things, would be like a contradiction to what you view as the only possible view

I think you are the only one doing this here...

There is no way Pure Boo is stronger than Evil Boo after he absorbed Gotenks of Gohan. That would be the same as saying that Freeza with 50% is stronger than his 100%. It doesn't make any sense.

Besides, in the final battle with Pure Boo, Goku asked if Vegeta wanted Gotenks and Gohan to fight, which he denied (because they would get absorbed again). So Pure Boo was far from being the strongest from of Majin Boo.

[Metrite]

I think you are the only one doing this here...

There is no way Pure Boo is stronger than Evil Boo after he absorbed Gotenks of Gohan. That would be the same as saying that Freeza with 50% is stronger than his 100%. It doesn't make any sense.

Besides, in the final battle with Pure Boo, Goku asked if Vegeta wanted Gotenks and Gohan to fight, which he denied (because they would get absorbed again). So Pure Boo was far from being the strongest from of Majin Boo.

Like I said before, I can understand and even somewhat agree with the view that Pure Buu was not the strongest Buu of all. I am just pointing out how there are many facts that show he was at least stronger than Evil Buu (even disregarding Kaioshin's line). And that one line about Gohan and Gotenks would actually be an extra detail to add to the above list. When Goku with the concerned look said "You revived Gohan and Gotenks so they can come fight with us," he was thinking that the only thing they could attempt to do as a result of the wishes was to all fight together against Buu since none of them could win alone. That also shows that Pure Buu mustn't have Been even weaker than Evil Buu, otherwise Goku should have just said, "You revived Gohan so he could beat Buu for us," seeing how Gohan would win with a flick of his wrist in that case.

[CatouttaHell]

Yeah, the Genki Dama required Vegeta to almost get killed while Goku desperately tried to gather energy for the Genki Dama. While just bringing Gohan and Gotenks in to kill Boo, if Chibi Boo was actually weak, would be an extremely easy, and quick solution. Vegeta instantly shots down that proposal however and Goku doesn't bother to argue or bring it up again.

Even when things get REALLY bad does he even consider just scrapping the Genki Dama idea and bringing Gohan and Gotenks over after all. Nor do Gohan, Piccolo, Kaioshin-sama, or anyone else ever say or think anything like "why don't these idiots just bring Gohan and Gotenks over and end this already?"

[Fox666]

why don't these idiots just bring Gohan and Gotenks over and end this already?

Why didn't they wished for Vegeta and Nappa spaceships to explode?

Why didn't goku use his teleport technique to send no.17 and 18 to another planet (or even the afterlife) and never bother about them again?

Why Goku instead of giving a senzu to Cell, simply let Gohan defeat him while he was weakened? He could even eat a senzu himself and fight along Gohan to have an even easier victory?

Why the hell Goku didn't defeat the fat Majin Boo when he had the chance, knowing that billions of people could get killed in the process?

The answer for the last question might more-or-less answer yours.

[Infamous_666]

That pretty much confirms what I had said before. Even that translation mentions his heart, which was the reason he had reduced power, had changed back. The heart that had just changed back to the way it was was Evil Buu's, so that means Evil Buu still had that same heart, which goes right along with what Evil Buu said about not being himself any longer.

You are assuming that the translation means absorptions as in plural and not singular. It is clear in the manga that Dai Kaioshin lowered Majin Boo's power. So if it is absorption singular, it means South Kaioshin could have potentially increased Majin Boo's power. Also, it is implied that Majin Boo got his kind, gentle heart from Dai Kaioshin while strength is mentioned for South Kaioshin.

He did lower his power through absorption imo as Fat Boo < Kid Boo.

Even disregarding Kaioshin's line, there is the fact that all the Kaioshins were significantly weaker than ssj Gohan. So since South Kaioshin would be like a drop in a bucket, that must mean that there must not be any significant difference between Pure Buu and Evil Buu.

I feel thats contradicted by a lot of things. I mean Goku is panicked about Buff Boo and relieved by Kid Boo. Your logic says that there is only a SSJ power between the two.

Also, Gotenks is just so darn powerful and Super Boo doesn't get killed by some of SSJ3 Gotenks's attacks... I mean we are talking about a warrior whose SSJ is in all likelihood stronger than Fat Boo, someone Goku needed SSJ3 to take on.

Why was the Genki Dama considered the best idea by everybody including Gohan? Why was everybody acting like it was the last hope? And if Gohan was ungodly superior to Pure Buu, shouldn't his energy alone have been far more than enough for the Genki Dama?

This is a pretty good argument although I'm not sure what Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks, and Goten say in the original manga. I also feel that genki =/= ki since AT wrote that genki is one of the three things that make up ki if I'm not mistaken. Plus, it would have made more sense for Goten and Trunks to fuse and give their ki.

Why did Vegeta say that it would be the end of everything if Pure Buu ever showed up again? And don't say he just meant, "He'll blow up the world right away," because Goku's response was that he'd keep training so that if it ever does happen again, he'll be ready to fight him again. So he meant in terms of who could stand up to him.

I believe that the original translation is key here:

Goku: “Well, it’s alright, ain’t it Vegeta? This Boo and Mister Satan both did well. If these two hadn’t been here, then we and everyone else would have been done in. Right?”

Think about this perspective: what if Mr. Boo and Mr. Satan weren't there? What would have happened? Well, Mr. Satan stopped Vegeta from being killed. Mr. Boo bought time for Vegeta's plan to revive everyone.

So there are good explanations of that quote that don't absolutely have to make the quote mean Kid Boo > Gohan.

And why would Goku be anxiously awaiting the day he could fight the reborn Buu if he already had people around that were way, way stronger all along? Shouldn't Gohan or Gotenks have been a much more exciting challenge?

I think perhaps Goku prefers fighting all out against an opponent who is fighting all out. Goku mentions that he agrees with Cell when Cell says a battle should be fought all out.

Perhaps if Gohan and Gotenks hold back against Goku, they won't sustain as much damage, etc and it makes it a kind of uneven battle, much like Powered-up Cell vs. Goku. Just a theory to explain the Gohan > Goku side.

[Rocketman]

And I'm the crazy one.

SSjin Vegetto is briefly overpowered by Chaotic Boohan and has to struggle to regain control. I personally believe Chaotic Boohan is part of Chibi Boo's suppressed power coming through, so this puts Chibi Boo above SSjin Vegetto for me. And GT Goku is shown to be sparring with Oob, whose training is complete, in base. Nothing crazy about that.

Vegetto was not overpowered by Buu's temper tantrum any more than Cell was overpowered by Vegeta's Final Flash. Caught by surprise at the level of power he was holding himself down to, yes, but that's not quite the same thing.

...that also requires SS3 Goku vs Kid Buu to be stronger than Super Vegetto which is absolutely bananas.

Uub's training may be complete, but big whoop. He's not much, if any stronger than the SS1/2 hybrids in GT, and we know they didn't train. That is impressive progress on Goku's part (or impressive slacking off by the hybrids), but Super Vegetto is superior to anyone in GT besides SS4 Gogeta.

[Kaboom]

Boo's filler-tantrum almost tore apart the universe... and Vegetto fixed it by punching him. One more time, Vegetto's punches are powerful enough to halt the destruction of the entire mortal universe.

And that's only at Super Saiyan 1, which, for the adult Saiyans during the Boo arc of whom he's composed, is the equivalent of, "not even trying." Vegetto vs Boo was already overkill enough, but if he'd decided to use Super Saiyan 2 or even 3, then... well, figure it out for yourself.

[CatouttaHell]

Why the hell Goku didn't defeat the fat Majin Boo when he had the chance, knowing that billions of people could get killed in the process?

He could but he wanted the next generation to step up and save the world instead. But with Chibi Boo he had no choice but to step up himself.

Vegetto was not overpowered by Buu's temper tantrum any more than Cell was overpowered by Vegeta's Final Flash. Caught by surprise at the level of power he was holding himself down to, yes, but that's not quite the same thing.

...that also requires SS3 Goku vs Kid Buu to be stronger than Super Vegetto which is absolutely bananas.

Uub's training may be complete, but big whoop. He's not much, if any stronger than the SS1/2 hybrids in GT, and we know they didn't train. That is impressive progress on Goku's part (or impressive slacking off by the hybrids), but Super Vegetto is superior to anyone in GT besides SS4 Gogeta.

Goku stated Bebi Vegeta was the strongest Ki he'd ever felt so at the very LEAST Bebi Vegeta and up are superior to Vegetto. And Vegetto was sent flying back by Chaotic Boohan's power and he was clearly struggling to regain control against him. Chibi Boo was then stated by Goku and the omniscient narrator to be the strongest Boo, putting him above even Chaotic Boohan. It's quite possible that Chibi Boo wasn't fully trying against Goku just like how he wasn't fully trying against Vegeta and Mr. Boo. I think him pushing the Genki Dama back is the only time he was really trying.

And Oob is at least as strong as Chibi Boo by the time his training is done. He's equal to Base Goku, to whom SSjin Gohan and Goten were complete trash.

[Metrite]

The answer for the last question might more-or-less answer yours.

So any time a choice was made that doesn't match up, it was by default a case of stupid on the characters' part? I guess you can't argue with stupid. We'll just say that any time a controversial choice was made by a character about any view on things that it must be a case of stupid. lol

You are assuming that the translation means absorptions as in plural and not singular. It is clear in the manga that Dai Kaioshin lowered Majin Boo's power.

No, I am taking the line to mean exactly what it says. It says his heart, the having of which caused his power to be reduced, had changed back.

I feel thats contradicted by a lot of things. I mean Goku is panicked about Buff Boo and relieved by Kid Boo. Your logic says that there is only a SSJ power between the two.

Well, the fact is that all the Kaioshins were way weaker than ssj Gohan and so there really couldn't have been any huge difference between them. I guess you can either match other things up to it or just disregard it as a plot hole.

This is a pretty good argument although I'm not sure what Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks, and Goten say in the original manga. I also feel that genki =/= ki since AT wrote that genki is one of the three things that make up ki if I'm not mistaken.

I have never heard of any such thing about ki/genki. However it was stated that what Gohan provided was his ki. Right after Gohan raised him arms, Goku looked up and said "This ki is from Gohan."

I believe that the original translation is key here:

Goku: “Well, it’s alright, ain’t it Vegeta? This Boo and Mister Satan both did well. If these two hadn’t been here, then we and everyone else would have been done in. Right?”

You are talking about what Goku said before the line I mentioned. Right after that he said he would keep training so that he will be ready to fight if this does happen again.

I think perhaps Goku prefers fighting all out against an opponent who is fighting all out. Goku mentions that he agrees with Cell when Cell says a battle should be fought all out.

The saiyajin mind says the stronger the opponent, the better. If Gohan was way stronger than Buu then Goku should have been looking to Gohan as his next challenge. If he wanted them to fight all out they could, and if he didn't do well then he'd be happy over the fact that they could still help him push himself even further. It is whoever is the strongest around that Goku will always look to as his next goal.

[Rocketman]

Goku stated Bebi Vegeta was the strongest Ki he'd ever felt so at the very LEAST Bebi Vegeta and up are superior to Vegetto.

Goku never felt Vegetto's power.

And Vegetto was sent flying back by Chaotic Boohan's power and he was clearly struggling to regain control against him.

Piccolo sent final-form Freeza flying. Kid Trunks sent Fat Buu flying.

And Vegetto was only 'struggling' until he actually put forth a smidgen more of His power.

It's quite possible that Chibi Boo wasn't fully trying against Goku just like how he wasn't fully trying against Vegeta and Mr. Boo. I think him pushing the Genki Dama back is the only time he was really trying.

...and then SS1 Goku overpowers him?

And Oob is at least as strong as Chibi Boo by the time his training is done. He's equal to Base Goku, to whom SSjin Gohan and Goten were complete trash.

Except then later he isn't because GT.

[Fox666]

Goku stated Bebi Vegeta was the strongest Ki he'd ever felt so at the very LEAST Bebi Vegeta and up are superior to Vegetto. And Vegetto was sent flying back by Chaotic Boohan's power and he was clearly struggling to regain control against him. Chibi Boo was then stated by Goku and the omniscient narrator to be the strongest Boo, putting him above even Chaotic Boohan. It's quite possible that Chibi Boo wasn't fully trying against Goku just like how he wasn't fully trying against Vegeta and Mr. Boo. I think him pushing the Genki Dama back is the only time he was really trying.

Of course these are just fillers (including the narrator saying that Pure Boo was the strongest). And fillers have a questionable balance of powers...

The answer for the last question might more-or-less answer yours.

So any time a choice was made that doesn't match up, it was by default a case of stupid on the characters' part? I guess you can't argue with stupid. We'll just say that any time a controversial choice was made by a character about any view on things that it must be a case of stupid. lol

Okay, seems you don't get it. They used the Genki Dama so that THE HUMANS CAN SAVE THE WORLD.

The Pure Boo part is already full of "if they did X it would have been easier".

[CatouttaHell]

Goku never felt Vegetto's power.

He knew/remembered exactly what Vegetto was thinking as soon as he defused so he should have felt and remembered his own power while fused.

Piccolo sent Freeza flying, kid Trunks sent Fat Buu flying.

And Vegetto was only 'struggling' until he actually put forth a smidgen more of His power.

Being pushed back by someone's massive Ki being unleashed near you is very different from being hit full force by someone you didn't know was even there.

And he was clearly trying hard to overpower Boohan. The difference between Anime Vegetto and Anime Boohan wasn't very big to begin with, especially considering how Vegetto freaked out and had to use Instantaneous Movement to escape from Boohan's Kamikaze Ghosts.

...and then SS1 Goku overpowers him?

A possibly plot-haxed SSjin Goku adding all of his power on top of the greatest Genki Dama in the entirety of the series? Yes.

Of course these are just fillers (including the narrator saying that Pure Boo was the strongest). And fillers have a questionable balance of powers...

I am aware of this. I am debating the Anime and GT, which follows the Anime. I am not trying to argue that Manga Chibi Boo is anywhere near SSjin Vegetto, and possibly not even as strong as Boohan or Bootenks. But the fillers were added by Toei as part of their own version/interpretation of Toriyama's work. I personally just like to compare the Anime Boo Arc to Movie 13. With Goku holding out for no real reason for a long time, possibly because he just wants thrills then finally pulling out his SSjin 3 power, which eclipses all of the other powers that appeared until then.

(I don't actually think even Anime SSjin 3 Goku could beat SSjin Vegetto; he'd probably get stomped. But I do think Anime Chibi Boo is.)

[Rocketman]

Filler is also dedicated to worshiping Godku and singing his praises, no matter what.