What Dragon Ball Z is officially # 1 Canon?

[astrallite]

The problem is the manga contradicts itself as the story progresses so it's constantly being (unintentionally?) retconned.

[Bussani]

Chibi Mystic Gohan's comments about Evangelion just remind me of what I always say on the subject: there's no universal way of determining canon. There are no rules. "Official canon" is just whatever the creator/owner considers canon--the fact that they create or own it is the only thing that sets it apart from a fan's personal canon. So in a way, it's both complicated and perfectly simple at the same time.

[Hellspawn28]

The problem is the manga contradicts itself as the story progresses so it's constantly being (unintentionally?) retconned.

But the DBZ anime was no different. I mean stuff in the DBZ got stuff retconned over time like in GT where the whole Saiya-jin origin was retconned and along with the whole conpect that dead characters are immortal in the Afterlife afterall. GT is pretty much a direct sequel to Toei's Dragon Ball/Z anime series afterall.

[SegaSaturnGamer]

Great responses by everyone! While most of the time DBZ Manga is seen as canon, I disagree. I personally see the DBZ anime as number 1 simply because IMHO its superior(and the best anime ever!)!Also DBZ was followed by its own sequel GT unlike the Manga which just ended at Z.

[CatouttaHell]

I've read the Manga but my personal "fanon" still includes all Anime filler and Dragonball GT. Like VegettoEX stated, nobody has actually stated that the Manga or anything else is the only canon thing. And you could argue the fact that Toriyama-sama suggested a few things, like Lunch's appearance during the Chibi Boo Genki Dama, and (IIRC, correct me if I'm wrong) Yamucha being a baseball player meaning that at least some of the Anime filler is canon.

[Gaffer Tape]

Well, maybe it's just me, but I don't consider things that Toriyama simply suggested to the anime staff to be "canon." He's making suggestions for their story, not his story. If you take everything he designed or suggested, Gregory would be canon to the manga, even though he never appears in it, and the 20 days he should be chasing Gregory he's still chasing Bubbles. The same would go for several of the movie villains, even though there's no way most of them could ever be compatible with Toriyama's own story. The only suggestions I seriously consider are the ones that Toriyama clearly decided to incorporate back into his story, like the names Shuu, Mai, and Sno, and the character of Bardock.

[CatouttaHell]

I just consider the Anime to be canon, but I'm simply saying that those things can be used to argue that the Anime is also canon, not just the Manga. Honestly until/unless Toriyama himself comes out and says that the Manga or the Manga and whatever else are the true canon, it's all up to each fan what they consider to be canon and what they don't, as VegettoEX said earlier.

[Gaffer Tape]

Yes. Obviously you're free to accept whatever you'd like, and don't let anyone tell you you can't or shouldn't. There is no big book o' canon that clearly defines everything, and it's just a piece of fiction, so it's not all that important. But I do get the feeling that the use of the term "canon" might make it seem more imposing than it really is. Specifically, that when people use it, they're usually not referring to an official statement or proclamation of truth, but just a word to express, simply, that what happens in the story is what happens in the story. I mean, sure, you could say that Goku sneezes cats, as there isn't an official "canon guide" to disprove it (and, yes, I'm engaging in extreme hyperbole, so please don't think I'm seriously suggesting that's what you think). And, as a matter of course, when we talk about what the story is, we're referring to the manga (unless otherwise stated), and so what happens in it... is what happens in it. Obviously you get into *slightly* muddier waters when you start getting into Toriyama statements that appear outside of the manga...

[Nineteen]

I've basically adapted the official policy that Lucasfilm uses for Star Wars canon issues for everything else. Star Wars operates on a 'tiered' canon policy, in which the films, called 'G-canon', are the definitive works set in the universe. The Expanded Universe (books, games, comics, and so on) are 'C-canon', which means that they can be assumed 'to have occurred' in-universe except where they directly contradict the films. Then come things like the Star Wars Infinity comics, which are intentionally written to not be part of the canon in order to serve as a sort of 'What If?' for the rest of the universe.

So, under this scheme and in relation to Dragonball, the manga would be 'G-canon', the inviolate word of God/George Lucas/Akira Toriyama. The anime-only filler could still be considered 'C-canon', depending on your taste, with only those very particular aspects of it that flatly and incontrovertibly contradict the manga dropping down to non-canon. Movies 12 and 13 would probably be between 'C-canon' and non-canon, with the rest falling to some degree or another within non-continuity. Your mileage may vary on DBO. This lets me keep some of my favorite bits of the story in continuity, e.g. "Pendulum Room Peril", while disposing with some of the more troublesome aspects of filler.

Of course, that doesn't work with every fiction universe - Paramount has explicitly said that nothing Star Trek except the films and series are canon, for instance, including games and books. But in the absence of stated authorial policy, this is a pretty good way to rationalize these issues.

[Gaffer Tape]

Well, I don't know how much truth can be said in this, but I think it's logical to believe that most fictional bodies don't have a Godly Official Statement of Canon (TM) because only huge media empires like Star Wars and Star Trek are convoluted and so full of material enough to need that kind of clarification in the first place. That said, it might be something of a marketing thing, too. We're all nerds here. We tend to be obsessive-compulsive about what we like, so we take a certain amount of comfort in having a heavenly corporate body making everything neat und tidy in our fandom.

[Bussani]

I was about to reply, but then I realized that I've already said more or less what I was going to say. You can't have contextless canon.

While most of the time DBZ Manga is seen as canon, I disagree. I personally see the DBZ anime as number 1 simply because IMHO its superior(and the best anime ever!)!Also DBZ was followed by its own sequel GT unlike the Manga which just ended at Z.

No offense intended (and I know people tend to say that before saying something that's going to offend, but I'm really not trying to!), but I don't see the point in that. If you're just going to use the word canon to mean whatever you prefer or think is best, then what's the point? Canon isn't some coveted spot that everything needs to fight over.

As an example, it's true that anime filler isn't part of the "manga canon." No one can say that anything from anime filler definitely happened in the manga. It's possible that some anime filler does potentially fit, but that's a grey area, you know? But conversely, we can also say that the Kanzenban ending isn't canon to the anime. So, you see, it's not a contest for number one spot or anything like that; it's just a tool for defining exactly what you're talking about, and what fictional events affect other fictional events.

[Gaffer Tape]

Agreed. Whenever the term "canon" comes up, people do, for some reason, feel like there's some kind of personal stake involved, like they have to fight for what they like to make the "cut." Which is really weird, because, if we're talking strictly about what's "canon" to the manga that Toriyama wrote, we're mostly dealing with straight facts, so anyone saying, "That didn't happen in the manga," isn't trying to rain on anybody's parade or judge the quality of the subject. They're simply stating a fact. And if someone's talking about their own personal "canon," well then also, why get emotional about it? The only "official" status of that is in your mind. No amount of arguing can make it more than that, and no amount of arguing against it by anyone else can make it less than that.

[SegaSaturnGamer]

I was about to reply, but then I realized that I've already said more or less what I was going to say. You can't have contextless canon.

While most of the time DBZ Manga is seen as canon, I disagree. I personally see the DBZ anime as number 1 simply because IMHO its superior(and the best anime ever!)!Also DBZ was followed by its own sequel GT unlike the Manga which just ended at Z.

No offense intended (and I know people tend to say that before saying something that's going to offend, but I'm really not trying to!), but I don't see the point in that. If you're just going to use the word canon to mean whatever you prefer or think is best, then what's the point? Canon isn't some coveted spot that everything needs to fight over.

As an example, it's true that anime filler isn't part of the "manga canon." No one can say that anything from anime filler definitely happened in the manga. It's possible that some anime filler does potentially fit, but that's a grey area, you know? But conversely, we can also say that the Kanzenban ending isn't canon to the anime. So, you see, it's not a contest for number one spot or anything like that; it's just a tool for defining exactly what you're talking about, and what fictional events affect other fictional events.

Actually reason for me creating this thread was that I wanted to know which medium was canon for sure so that when I make fanfics I know which source is official and I will use that as my guide in avoiding things against the rules of DBZ universe in my fanfics.

However now that everybody mentioned that its up to the fan to decide whats canon, I guess I will follow the rules of the anime universe.

[CatouttaHell]

I guess "fanon" is a better term then. We don't really have anything that is stated by Toriyama himself to be canon, so we can only assume the Manga is. And then one's fanon is the Manga plus the Anime if you consider it canon, any games or movies you consider canon, etc. I consider the Anime to be canon but I try to limit myself to the Manga only if I'm debating something Manga-only or answering a question of someone who doesn't consider the Anime canon.

[Krycek7o2]

Canon for a show like this is left entirely up to the viewer. Unless there is an "official" list, anything can be considered canon. Even things that contradict other events. This is the enjoyment in this "universe". You can make Broly canon or not. It's up to the viewer.

[Kendamu]

The problem is the manga contradicts itself as the story progresses so it's constantly being (unintentionally?) retconned.

I think "constantly" is a very big overstatement.

[violadude]

The problem is the manga contradicts itself as the story progresses so it's constantly being (unintentionally?) retconned.

I think "constantly" is a very big overstatement.

Also, almost every so called "retcon" in the manga can easily be explained without contradicting anything or coming up with some crazy, contrived theory.

[Bussani]

However now that everybody mentioned that its up to the fan to decide whats canon, I guess I will follow the rules of the anime universe.

Yeah, it's basically up to you. Like Mike said, there's no officially laid out canon. All canon is opinion, really. The only difference between a fan's personal canon and the creator's personal canon is the creator's matters, it being their story 'n' all. I guess I will point out that a lot of the filler in the anime contradicts things from itself and the manga, however. The biggest one is probably how the villains have bodies in the afterlife, when the manga makes it pretty clear (albeit later on) that only specifically selected good people get to keep their bodies. If you're trying to write a story that doesn't violate the rules of Dragon Ball, what do you do in cases where the anime itself violates those rules? I suppose that's up to you at the end of the day, which just goes to show why the person doing the writing is the only one whose opinion on canon really matters.

Canon for a show like this is left entirely up to the viewer. Unless there is an "official" list, anything can be considered canon. Even things that contradict other events. This is the enjoyment in this "universe". You can make Broly canon or not. It's up to the viewer.

Well yes, anyone can make up their own personal canon. "Official canon" is just the personal canon of the creator/owner, after all. Whether the canon makes sense or not is another matter.

[CODii]

Personally, I combine the manga and anime in my view of canon. To me everything in the manga and everything in the anime is canon. In the case however where there is a contradiction between them, I give the precedent to the manga.

[Rocketman]

The problem is the manga contradicts itself as the story progresses so it's constantly being (unintentionally?) retconned.

I think "constantly" is a very big overstatement.

Also, almost every so called "retcon" in the manga can easily be explained without contradicting anything or coming up with some crazy, contrived theory.

And the anime contradicts itself a hundred times worse than any problems the manga has.