Base Saiyans

[lash]

I think Goku , Vegeta and Gohan are moderately strong in base by the Boo arc.
By moderate, I mean each of them are at least a notch stronger than 18. I'd see Goku as the only candidate stronger than 17. But that's about it.
Piccolo however, is farrrrrr stronger than any of them. To be fair, Vegeta wouldn't even know if Piccolo was coming to the tournament when he made his remark.

I'd view Dabra and Babidi sensing a lower suppressed Piccolo when they made their choice on who were the top 3 powers.

[petewentz]

I think Goku , Vegeta and Gohan are moderately strong in base by the Boo arc.
By moderate, I mean each of them are at least a notch stronger than 18. I'd see Goku as the only candidate stronger than 17. But that's about it.
Piccolo however, is farrrrrr stronger than any of them. To be fair, Vegeta wouldn't even know if Piccolo was coming to the tournament when he made his remark.

I'd view Dabra and Babidi sensing a lower suppressed Piccolo when they made their choice on who were the top 3 powers.

So you suggest that Piccolo was better at suppressing his power than Gohan/Goku/Vegeta, right?

Or that his suppressed power is less than Goku's? Wouldn't suppressed power be relatively the same?

[lash]

I think Piccolo manually flew with a lower "suppressed" power compared to the saiyans. Why? No real reason...maybe the weights were ultra heavy this time around? Or since Piccolo inherently can fly, maybe his Ki doesn't have to be as high as the others who rely on Bukujutsu when suppressed?

After all Dabra and Babidi could have only sensed them while they were tailing Suppo & Yamu flying to their base.
When they were on the mountain, their power was masked/erased/faked at 0...not merely suppressed.

Let's not also forget the power Dabra and Babidi sensed was far far off from what the saiyans were truly capable of. They thought Pui Pui could handle all of them. When Vegeta alone without breaking a sweat ripped him apart. Either Dabra and Babidi sensed everyone suppressed or we really shouldn't put any faith in their Ki sensing abilities. For this same reason, I doubt they would know what Kaioshin(who I view even more powerful then Piccolo) is also truly capable of.

[petewentz]

I think Piccolo manually flew with a lower "suppressed" power compared to the saiyans. Why? No real reason...maybe the weights were ultra heavy this time around? Or since Piccolo inherently can fly, maybe his Ki doesn't have to be as high as the others who rely on Bukujutsu when suppressed?

After all Dabra and Babidi could have only sensed them while they were tailing Suppo & Yamu flying to their base.
When they were on the mountain, their power was masked/erased/faked at 0...not merely suppressed.

Let's not also forget the power Dabra and Babidi sensed was far far off from what the saiyans were truly capable of. They thought Pui Pui could handle all of them. When Vegeta alone without breaking a sweat ripped him apart. Either Dabra and Babidi sensed everyone suppressed or we really shouldn't put any faith in their Ki sensing abilities. For this same reason, I doubt they would know what Kaioshin(who I view even more powerful then Piccolo) is also truly capable of.

So you don't think Vegeta(base)>Kaioshin? By the way that argument you just posted was probably the best I've read in a while and I never thought about it that way. I would still say the base saiyans are extremely powerful, as you said a little above #18...

I just take the evidence presented in the manga very literal, as to simplify things. When you start second and third guessing Dabura's ki sensing abilities it can get a little nutty. That's the problem with Toriyama's story, inherently...he definitely wasn't thinking of this stuff when he wrote it. In my opinion, he was writing a simplistic story scene and was visually telling us base saiyans>Piccolo....then Dabra is surprised when Goku goes super saiyan, another story telling device...

Also, if they *under*estimate the base saiyans, then wouldn't that give more credence to base saiyans>Piccolo?

Thanks though, great post

[lash]

So you don't think Vegeta(base)>Kaioshin?

Nah. I highly highly doubt a normal Vegeta could take as much punishment as Kaioshin did from Majin Boo. And I highly highly doubt Kaioshin could paralyze a SSJ2 Gohan when he's over fifty/hundred times weaker. As Kaioshin was merely using paralysis arts(not as what most mistaken as magic. I doubt Kaioshin even knows any "real" magic)...and we saw how well that works when the gap in Ki is big enough as Chaotzu attempts such on Nappa.

I just take the evidence presented in the manga very literal, as to simplify things. When you start second and third guessing Dabura's ki sensing abilities it can get a little nutty. That's the problem with Toriyama's story, inherently...he definitely wasn't thinking of this stuff when he wrote it. In my opinion, he was writing a simplistic story scene and was visually telling us base saiyans>Piccolo....then Dabra is surprised when Goku goes super saiyan, another story telling device...

I honestly look at it in a different way. I think the saiyans being chosen was all just a big plot setup. I don't think Toriyama had any message or true implication involved when he wrote that set up. Other then to have the focus on the main saiyan characters. Which is why he quickly wrote how inaccurate Dabra and Babidi were in their assessment of the saiyan's powers. It wasn't really meant to show who the strongest were in such a way like Base saiyans > Piccolo. Besides, if we want to be as "simplistic" as possible, then the scene is exactly right...Gohan, Vegeta, and Goku really were the strongest 3 there accounting for all their powers. Thinking "well it seems to be only the saiyan's Base form that the scene is talking about...", is already stepping out of the most simplistic representation of the scenario if one is really thinking that way... if you ask me.

Also, if they *under*estimate the base saiyans, then wouldn't that give more credence to base saiyans>Piccolo?

Perhaps. Or one could take it to mean that Dabra and Babidi greatly underestimated Piccolo & Kuririn as well. In other words, there would be no credence anywhere at all for Dabra and Babidi's choosing of the top 3 powers in the scenario.

[petewentz]

Nah. I highly highly doubt a normal Vegeta could take as much punishment as Kaioshin did from Majin Boo. And I highly highly doubt Kaioshin could paralyze a SSJ2 Gohan when he's over fifty/hundred times weaker. As Kaioshin was merely using paralysis arts(not as what most mistaken as magic. I doubt Kaioshin even knows any "real" magic)...and we saw how well that works when the gap in Ki is big enough as Chaotzu attempts such on Nappa.

Well, the Chaotzu analogy is great, actually. I still think the kaioshin was operating under slightly different parameters though, simply based on the old kai's magic...but...kaioshin does seem shocked that he would know "magic"...or he could be showing shock that Goku says he sees that kind of thing everyday. I don't know. I'm inclined to agree with your assessment, though if kaioshin was so powerful why didn't he simply say let me step in and take care of pui-pui since my energy can't be used to revive Majin Buu? I don't know.

I honestly look at it in a different way. I think the saiyans being chosen was all just a big plot setup. I don't think Toriyama had any message or true implication involved when he wrote that set up. Other then to have the focus on the main saiyan characters. Which is why he quickly wrote how inaccurate Dabra and Babidi were in their assessment of the saiyan's powers. It wasn't really meant to show who the strongest were in such a way like Base saiyans > Piccolo. Besides, if we want to be as "simplistic" as possible, then the scene is exactly right...Gohan, Vegeta, and Goku really were the strongest 3 there accounting for all their powers. Thinking "well it seems to be only the saiyan's Base form that the scene is talking about...", is already stepping out of the most simplistic representation of the scenario if one is really thinking that way... if you ask me.

This is the money post. Really a great thought from you. Yea, I suppose it was simply a plot set up to get the three strongest characters in the action again...my whole beef with that notion is why was Dabra surprised at Goku's kiri reading? I mean, your "simplistic" reply is correct, and that's how I like to view things, and the first scene taken in context is entirely correct...but we have a later scene showing Dabra didn't know that Goku had that kind of power, yet he somehow thought(maybe erroneously) that the base saiyans were stronger than Piccolo/Kurrin...I suppose, I suppose...either way, good post and you're really making a convincing argument. That's why I love these forums, is to learn other peoples views and see how they contradict your own and to see if you can incorporate a different viewpoint into your own.

Perhaps. Or one could take it to mean that Dabra and Babidi greatly underestimated Piccolo & Kuririn as well. In other words, there would be no credence anywhere at all for Dabra and Babidi's choosing of the top 3 powers in the scenario.

So, basically here you're suggesting that Dabra was under estimating Vegeta and co, while even further underestimating Piccolo and Kurrin? I don't think that's a likely explanation, Occam's Razor and all. If Dabra is under estimating Vegeta, then even Dabra's underestimation of Vegeta would be greater than Piccolo, right? If he underestimates everyone equally then the base saiyans are still stronger than Piccolo/Kurrin..

Or, maybe, as you've gotten me to realize, it's all speculative and blah blah...and it's mainly a plot point like you said to keep the story going and get the main heroes in the action. But, I am a person who believes in-universe explanations as well.

Like Kid Buu being weaker than Super Buu, obviously the real world implication is Toriyama had to make him weaker so Goku could fight him and be the hero again...in universe, there's a mountain of evidence that says he is...you see where I'm getting at?

Thanks for the healthy posts!

[CatouttaHell]

There is some merit to it. It's not like Boo willingly chose to take after Piccolo all of a sudden. It just happened automatically when Gotenks' Fusion time ran out. If it's not something that Boo purposely controlled, then what else but power would have been the cause of such influence?

It's the same with the Kaioshin. Even though one was stronger than the other, the weaker one actually still had more of an impact on Boo's power, and thus is the one Boo took after.

Besides, I seem to remember Goku's line being about it being, "so now you're getting your power from Piccolo!" or "So now Piccolo's coming out strong!" or something of that sort.

Well he needed Piccolo for his brains, he didn't really care about Base Goten and Trunks AT ALL because while stronger than Piccolo (IMHO) they still had no actual impact on his power. Thus since Piccolo was now the only absorption that Shin Boo actually had use for and thus was the most important one it was he who Boo took after.

And Goku has no idea how Boo works, for all he knew Boo had an eight ball inside him that decided who he took after. He just assumed it was because of power because he's Goku and that was what Boo absorbed Gotenks for.

For all we know Toriyama-sama just wanted to draw Boo in Piccolo's clothes. Maybe he wanted to avoid Goten's clothes because Boo was about to eat Gohan and wear a very similiar Gi and he just didn't like Trunks' clothes.

[Dabooyaka]

Gohan knows the can't win against Goku/Vegeta, he suggest fighting in base form. He thinks he might have a shot. That's just him being stupid.
Vegeta thinks he can win, knowing very well that he was behind Goku at the Cell games, and that Goku has spent 7 years training with the Gods in other world. He thinks he can win. That's him being Cocky Vegeta.
The Boo saga is filled with stupid remarks, and plotholes IMO.

[dbgtFO]

And Goku has no idea how Boo works, for all he knew Boo had an eight ball inside him that decided who he took after. He just assumed it was because of power because he's Goku and that was what Boo absorbed Gotenks for.

If Goku is not contradicted, then what he says is fact. Buu is right there to contradict him, yet he doesn't.

How do you get that #18>ssj Trunks/Goten from that quote? Bolded points for emphasis, he clearly says "in this set up" and Goten wonders if their max power might kill her...

Hardly evidence for your claim.

Senzu_Bean's claim was not "SSJ Trunks/SSJ Goten < #18."

This was his claim:

And Goten and Trunks couldn't win by close combat against #18 even as Super Saiyan in that costume.

Basically the same thing you are saying.

You even replied to that specific quote of his:

And Goten and Trunks couldn't win by close combat against #18 even as Super Saiyan in that costume.

No evidence of that claim.

So pay more attention next time.

[Dabooyaka]

I agree that base Saiyans are very strong by the time the Boo arc comes along. To have them stronger than Piccolo is pushing it(, though).