Vegeta's full potential... cut short?

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Michsi
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Re: Vegeta's full potential... cut short?

Post by Michsi » Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:31 am

ending sun wrote:Yeah, I think post-Buu Vegeta, who's finally gotten over most of his bitterness and realized his family is the best thing in his life, might be able to train more efficiently. Or even post-GT Vegeta who has long since settled into family life and who Goku hands over Earth's protection to, giving him a more selfless purpose to get stronger. That's another reason I would love to see post-GT movie/special centering around Vegeta and the other fighters. It would be interesting to see how far they've progressed and how they respond to a threat without Goku's help. But that another topic entirely...

Unfortunatley there is a version of the DB manga that ends with Vegeta thinking that he'll defeat Kakarot yet, it's literary the last panel of the story, strongly hinting at that he did not and most likely will never get over his obsession. I have no idea why Toriyama chose to include that scene, imo it ruins the ending.

But I can't seem to agree with you about the inner peace thing. Vegeta's ambition comes from his desire to defeat Goku, if he loses that and settles down, I think he might actually widen the gap between them a lot more behind , like it happened with the others. Piccolo and the rest faired better in the story as fighters back when they still viewed Goku as a rival and still believed they could defeat him. It was when they accepted that he was out of their reach that they started falling behind greatly.

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Re: Vegeta's full potential... cut short?

Post by dbgtFO » Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:53 am

Michsi wrote:
ending sun wrote:Yeah, I think post-Buu Vegeta, who's finally gotten over most of his bitterness and realized his family is the best thing in his life, might be able to train more efficiently. Or even post-GT Vegeta who has long since settled into family life and who Goku hands over Earth's protection to, giving him a more selfless purpose to get stronger. That's another reason I would love to see post-GT movie/special centering around Vegeta and the other fighters. It would be interesting to see how far they've progressed and how they respond to a threat without Goku's help. But that another topic entirely...

Unfortunatley there is a version of the DB manga that ends with Vegeta thinking that he'll defeat Kakarot yet, it's literary the last panel of the story, strongly hinting at that he did not and most likely will never get over his obsession. I have no idea why Toriyama chose to include that scene, imo it ruins the ending.

But I can't seem to agree with you about the inner peace thing. Vegeta's ambition comes from his desire to defeat Goku, if he loses that and settles down, I think he might actually widen the gap between them a lot more behind , like it happened with the others. Piccolo and the rest faired better in the story as fighters back when they still viewed Goku as a rival and still believed they could defeat him. It was when they accepted that he was out of their reach that they started falling behind greatly.
Yes and that explains GT.

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Re: Vegeta's full potential... cut short?

Post by ending sun » Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:03 am

Yeah, I've heard of that ending and I'm not fond of it either. While I'm sure there's always going to be a bit of rivalry between them (at least on Vegeta's end), it seems like a character setback to end it on that note. I pretty much disregard that ending. :?

It's true that most of the characters are more relevant as adversaries to Goku than as friends as they might've let themselves to get complacent because Goku was there to pick up the slack but personally, I don't see this happening to Vegeta. I disagree that Goku is Vegeta's sole ambition for getting stronger, Vegeta's a full-blooded Saiyan just like Goku; fighting and getting stronger is part of him with or without Goku. Vegeta's also much too prideful, even still, to ever let the gap widen that much between him and Goku, not if he can help it. Like I said, I think there will always be some feelings of rivalry there but it's no longer hateful and all consuming. Or worth ending the manga on! :lol:

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Re: Vegeta's full potential... cut short?

Post by Bussani » Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:18 pm

Michsi wrote:But I can't seem to agree with you about the inner peace thing. Vegeta's ambition comes from his desire to defeat Goku, if he loses that and settles down, I think he might actually widen the gap between them a lot more behind , like it happened with the others. Piccolo and the rest faired better in the story as fighters back when they still viewed Goku as a rival and still believed they could defeat him. It was when they accepted that he was out of their reach that they started falling behind greatly.
Inner peace doesn't have to mean settling down and losing all rivalry. It's about finding your "true character"--something that Toriyama himself said contributes to your power. Just look at Goku: he loves having a rival, but he doesn't get all obsessed and angry about it. Goku's the kind of character who's happy if he wins or loses, but Vegeta is obsessed with winning. Pretty much all the Earthlings had a rivalry going with Goku at some point, too, but they all still had more inner peace than Vegeta.
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Re: Vegeta's full potential... cut short?

Post by SegaSaturnGamer » Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:08 pm

There two things I really love about Vegeta(and these are the primary reason why Vegeta is my favorite Z Senshi).
1)He is a Man of Action
This also a reason why I love Goku.Unlike most people, when Vegeta realizes a problem he does not simply run away from it-he actually attempts to take action to resolve the problem at least prepare ofr its consequences. This especially true during the Android Saga where he pushed himself as much as hell in 250X gravity.

2)He represents how an arrogant ex-champion could regain his title or at least be able to catch up with the competition.
This is the one quality I admire of Vegeta the most. You all heard of the tale of how once champions lose their titles, they either get disheartened and don't bother attempting to win their title back especially after multiplee fail attempts to win back their former position.We all know how Vegeta was formerly the strongest alive Saiyajin before Goku defeated him. Rather than merely give up his former title as strongest of the Saiyajin, Vegeta constantly keeps pushing himself throughout the story to eventually become stronger than Goku. While he doesn't regain the prestage of being the strongest Saiyajin alive, Vegeta is able to catch up with the competition and become one of the most powerful of the Z Senshis up to the point he would give Goku a hell of a lot trouble in a rematch. Even when Goku became the legendary Super Saiyajin which was believed to be a mere myth, Vegeta didn't get disheartened and quit like most ex champions who attempt to regain their titles would after failing multiple times and seeing even fiercer competition than previously when they first lost their titles-he instead began pushing himself more than ever to become a Super Saiyajin so he could be as powerful as Goku.

Basically if Goku is the epitome of how a low talentless class person could eventually defeat and unsurp the talented champion's throne, then Vegeta is the epitome the disgraced former champion who,with insane devotion and hard work and training,eventually retakes his place as champion or at least win Silver or Bronze place constantly in his reattempts to become champion again.
Last edited by SegaSaturnGamer on Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vegeta's full potential... cut short?

Post by Rocketman » Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:11 pm

dbgtFO wrote:Yes and that explains GT.
Vegeta outright states that he doesn't care about surpassing Goku anymore, he just wants to know his own limits.

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Re: Vegeta's full potential... cut short?

Post by Michsi » Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:14 am

Rocketman wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:Yes and that explains GT.
Vegeta outright states that he doesn't care about surpassing Goku anymore, he just wants to know his own limits.
I wonder if the fans would be happy with that though.... I get the feeling most don't want him to give up his obsession with defeating Goku :lol:

Never the less if that's what really happended in GT, then kudos to the anime team because that is one major character development for Vegeta. And ppl complain that it was only about Goku.

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Re: Vegeta's full potential... cut short?

Post by dbgtFO » Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:16 am

Rocketman wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:Yes and that explains GT.
Vegeta outright states that he doesn't care about surpassing Goku anymore, he just wants to know his own limits.
Oh, what do you know. My mistake.

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Re: Vegeta's full potential... cut short?

Post by SylentEcho » Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:23 am

I agree with most people here saying that Vegeta could easily surpass Goku, but he jsut never knew how to train and besides, most foes he encountered as a child were weaker than him.

He also made Nappa (and I'm guessing Raditz) do most of his dirty work, so maybe he never even got one zenkai before meeting Goku whereas Goku has been getting them since childhood. Yet he had such an awesome power up when he turned Super Saiyan. Piccolo, Ten and Kuririn all thought that he was stronger than Goku. Piccolo and Ten don't make mistakes very often!

I think if he trained the same way Goku did, he could have surpassed him, after all he's a jou-elite! :D

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Re: Vegeta's full potential... cut short?

Post by dbgtFO » Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:38 am

SylentEcho wrote:I think if he trained the same way Goku did, he could have surpassed him, after all he's a jou-elite! :D
Chou elite.IIRC

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Re: Vegeta's full potential... cut short?

Post by Michsi » Fri Apr 01, 2011 5:06 am

SylentEcho wrote:I agree with most people here saying that Vegeta could easily surpass Goku,
No offense, but personally, I think that's just wishfull thinking.

Toriyama made it painfully obvious that he couldn't.

I don't understand why people keep trying to find excuses for why Vegeta is weaker than Goku. People in and out of the universe praise him up and down for being a genious when it comes to fighting/ trainig etc so I don't see his full potential cut short. Vegeta himself admits that Goku is just better.

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Re: Vegeta's full potential... cut short?

Post by Rocketman » Fri Apr 01, 2011 5:45 am

Michsi wrote:I don't understand why people keep trying to find excuses for why Vegeta is weaker than Goku.
I don't see it as excuses, imo. For me, it's acknowledgment that Goku got a lot of help. For example, without the infinite-energy, no-fatigue afterlife training, Vegeta would have equaled him in the seven years.

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Re: Vegeta's full potential... cut short?

Post by Michsi » Fri Apr 01, 2011 6:05 am

The 1 year ROSAT Goku > 2 years ROSAT Vegeta is the most obvious example of the difference between them IMO.

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Re: Vegeta's full potential... cut short?

Post by CatouttaHell » Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:27 pm

Kaboom wrote:I was referring to how whenever Goku makes some sort of big breakthrough and Vegeta's lagging behind, Vegeta always still manages to close the gap, even when Goku continues to get better as well.
The Earthlings did way better with all of the training that both Goku and they did also.
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Re: Vegeta's full potential... cut short?

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:38 pm

CatouttaHell wrote:
Kaboom wrote:I was referring to how whenever Goku makes some sort of big breakthrough and Vegeta's lagging behind, Vegeta always still manages to close the gap, even when Goku continues to get better as well.
The Earthlings did way better with all of the training that both Goku and they did also.
Well, on both God's Palace and Kaio's planet, they had sparring partners.
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Re: Vegeta's full potential... cut short?

Post by Rocketman » Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:46 pm

CatouttaHell wrote:The Earthlings did way better with all of the training that both Goku and they did also.
They didn't get the same training Goku got, as Kami didn't personally train Goku.

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Re: Vegeta's full potential... cut short?

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:55 pm

Rocketman wrote:
CatouttaHell wrote:The Earthlings did way better with all of the training that both Goku and they did also.
They didn't get the same training Goku got, as Kami didn't personally train Goku.
Well, I don't think it was confirmed that God ever personally trained the Earthlings either. It seems like it was mainly Mr. Popo doing all the work. It's not much to go on, but in that panel when it shows everyone training at God's Palace, Kuririn's sparring with Mr. Popo and Yamcha's sparring with Chaozu, while God is standing there looking on. Although you could say that God saying that they had all surpassed him by now is evidence that he played a bigger part in training them more than with Goku, since it was a more desperate situation (i.e. Saiyans were coming to destroy the Earth).

Although they may've had more weights. Goku had a weighted shirt, wristbands and boots, whereas Yajirobe only had the weighted shirt and Tenshinhan/Chaozu only had the weighted shirt and boots. So perhaps God increased their weights to make up for the lack of weighted wristbands and boots, or put on even more weights to push their strength further.
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Re: Vegeta's full potential... cut short?

Post by dbgtFO » Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:36 pm

Michsi wrote:The 1 year ROSAT Goku > 2 years ROSAT Vegeta is the most obvious example of the difference between them IMO.
Yeah, the difference in training principles ie. Vegeta likes to train on his own going so far as training alone on his second try, when training with Trunks would have been far more efficient, while Goku gets the best out of his RoSaT training.

Vegeta actually only needed 2 months in the room to surpass Super Saiyan and become stronger than Cell, which I feel shows a tendency, that Vegeta basically don't know what to do next:

Trunks: “Dad seemed to have surpassed the limits of Super Saiyan about 2 months after entering…Even so, he still didn’t seem satisfied, and so we ended up taking all this time.”

Trunks: “Father really did surpass the limits of Super Saiyan…He obtained absolutely incredible power, like he has in that form now…But one day, I even further surpassed that world…! I realized that this was what Son Goku had been talking about…”

IMO Vegeta had realized that SSJ 3rdG was shit, but he didn't know how to obtain that power without losing speed, so he was stuck and was standing still for 10 whole months, kinda like what he did, when Trunks sought him out pre RoSaT.

It wasn't until Goku appearing as a FPSSJ, that Vegeta realized that there was another way, which he eventually ends up surpassing but unfortunately Goku only revealed ½ of his power.
Michsi wrote:I don't understand why people keep trying to find excuses for why Vegeta is weaker than Goku.
You are simply not looking at the big picture, go check out Herms' post on page 1, if you haven't already.

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Re: Vegeta's full potential... cut short?

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:41 pm

I think after Vegeta went beyond Super Saiyan in the first 2 months, he just trained to achieve more power (judging by Trunks' statement that he didn't seem satisfied). This is the reason why Vegeta was stronger than initial second form Cell even at regular Super Saiyan (IMO). With Super Saiyan Grade 3 proven to be useless, Vegeta thought that the only way to go was to just get stronger.
Holden Caulfield in [b][i]The Catcher in the Rye[/i][/b] wrote:I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetery. People coming and putting a bunch of flowers on your stomach on Sunday, and all that crap. Who wants flowers when you're dead? Nobody.

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Re: Vegeta's full potential... cut short?

Post by dbgtFO » Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:50 pm

Piccolo Daimao wrote:I think after Vegeta went beyond Super Saiyan in the first 2 months, he just trained to achieve more power (judging by Trunks' statement that he didn't seem satisfied). This is the reason why Vegeta was stronger than initial second form Cell even at regular Super Saiyan (IMO). With Super Saiyan Grade 3 proven to be useless, Vegeta thought that the only way to go was to just get stronger.
Well in that second quote, Trunks tells us that Vegeta achieved incredible power like he has in that form now, when he surpassed the limits of SSJ.

So for whatever reason the power he achieved upon ascension is the power he has when fighting Cell.

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