Near-death power-up Saiyan become more powerful than SSJ?

SegaSaturnGamer · Post by **SegaSaturnGamer** » Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:07 pm

In my current idea for a fanfic my Saiyajin is not a Super Saiyajin. However, I am considering using Zenkai (editor's note: fan-term for the power-up received after a Saiyan recovers from near-death) as an important concept. Basically, since his enemy will be the future androids, he will experience near-death experience (huh?) in the first encounter but survives.

He will be unable to become a SSJ but I am considering making him as powerful as one by the end of the series as he will (have?) near death experiences in the fight with the Androids. With combination of Zenkai and constant brutal training in insane gravity levels, his power will eventually match that of Future Android 17 and in the final battle he will even use a long lost Saiyajin form that has never been mentioned but once in a movie (I bet you call can guess what it is!) that, while not SSJ, will give him a great boost in power.

Is using the concept of Zenkai this way against the rules of the DBZ universe? I am thinking theoretically that a regular Saiyajin could surpass an SSJ via Zenkai combined with intense training.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:26 pm

I think the guides mention that the near death power ups get smaller after Super Saiyan is introduced. A theory that seems popular is that they're a means to reaching Super Saiyan, so once the person attains that form, they more or less go away. But I suppose there's nothing that outright says a person who couldn't go Super Saiyan (for whatever reason) couldn't keep getting them, at least as far as I can think of...

Nineteen · Post by **Nineteen** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:12 am

While it's theoretically possible for a base Saiyan to become as powerful as a Super Saiyan (while I don't hold to them, there are arguments that base Goku at the end of Dragonball Z was as strong as he was in his Super Saiyan form on Namek), it's impossible for a base Saiyan to ever be as strong as he could be if he attained the level of a Super Saiyan. No matter how powerful he gets, that strength would still be multiplied by the Super Saiyan form.

Fox666 · Post by **Fox666** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:40 am

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:46 am

So, Trunks at that point has a base power of, what, around 50,000?

Yeah, that's right. I can do math.

Fox666 · Post by **Fox666** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:05 am

I would say 10,000

It's unlikely that Trunks had 500,000. That would make him have 12,500,000 as a Super Saiyan, and considering Gohan could handle him with easy in his normal state and with only one arm, you are going to get an astronomic level for Gohan. Still Gohan as a Super Saiyan could only handle the weaker no.17 of the future if the android was using mere half of his power...

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:22 am

Whoops, one too many zeroes. Looks like I can't do math so well after all.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:27 am

Nineteen wrote:No matter how powerful he gets, that strength would still be multiplied by the Super Saiyan form.

I suppose Elder Kaioshin's power-up is the exception to this? Though to be fair, we don't know if it's possible for someone to train themselves to that point without his help. Probably not, since he takes them "beyond their limits."

Dabooyaka · Post by **Dabooyaka** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:53 am

Didn't Vegeta tell the Z senshi that he had hit a limit, and could not get any stronger without transforming into a SSJ?
http://manga.bleachexile.com/dragon-bal ... ge-11.html

I think there is a limit as to how strong a base Saiyan can get.

Kendamu · Post by **Kendamu** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:05 am

Bussani wrote:I think the guides mention that the near death power ups get smaller after Super Saiyan is introduced. A theory that seems popular is that they're a means to reaching Super Saiyan, so once the person attains that form, they more or less go away. But I suppose there's nothing that outright says a person who couldn't go Super Saiyan (for whatever reason) couldn't keep getting them, at least as far as I can think of...

It's not that they get smaller. It's that their power is so high that a Zenkai's boost becomes insubstantial. For example, if you have $5 and you add another $5 to it, that's really good as you've doubled your total! However, if you have $5000 and you add $5 then it's not a big deal.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:38 am

Dabooyaka wrote:Didn't Vegeta tell the Z senshi that he had hit a limit, and could not get any stronger without transforming into a SSJ?

Well, that's one way to interpret that line, but not the only way. Characters are always hitting "limits" in Dragon Ball that they have to find creative ways to overcome, but that doesn't mean it's the strongest they can ever get.

Kendamu wrote:It's not that they get smaller.

Depends on how you're looking at it. I see what you're saying, though, and I like that way of explaining it.

Kroni_Hunter · Post by **Kroni_Hunter** » Sat Apr 02, 2011 7:33 pm

Kendamu wrote: It's not that they get smaller. It's that their power is so high that a Zenkai's boost becomes insubstantial. For example, if you have $5 and you add another $5 to it, that's really good as you've doubled your total! However, if you have $5000 and you add $5 then it's not a big deal.

Except that Zenkais were exponential every time we saw them. Goku had several on his way to Namek and only had a PL of 180,000 even with a Kaioken. Then he gets one more and just like that his baseline PL is 3,000,000. Vegeta only got a boost of 6,000 after fighting on Earth, then a substantial amount more the next time that put him between Zarbon and Recoome. After this, his next Zenkai jumps him to 1st Form Freeza's level. Then he gets yet another one that puts him just below Final Form Freeza.

Piccolo Daimao · Post by **Piccolo Daimao** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:57 am

Or it's just about drawing out hidden power, and once they became Super Saiyan, they'd ran out of that hidden power souce...or something like that. It's a theory that many fans share.

Kendamu · Post by **Kendamu** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:09 pm

Kroni_Hunter wrote:
Kendamu wrote: It's not that they get smaller. It's that their power is so high that a Zenkai's boost becomes insubstantial. For example, if you have $5 and you add another $5 to it, that's really good as you've doubled your total! However, if you have $5000 and you add $5 then it's not a big deal.
Except that Zenkais were exponential every time we saw them. Goku had several on his way to Namek and only had a PL of 180,000 even with a Kaioken. Then he gets one more and just like that his baseline PL is 3,000,000. Vegeta only got a boost of 6,000 after fighting on Earth, then a substantial amount more the next time that put him between Zarbon and Recoome. After this, his next Zenkai jumps him to 1st Form Freeza's level. Then he gets yet another one that puts him just below Final Form Freeza.

And, eventually, the Saiyans keep getting stronger while the Zenkai stops getting bigger. There's a limit to exploiting it and they clearly passed it.

I could've swore I read about this from some official source. Anyone wanna help me out on this? I tend to not keep an intense track record of this stuff.

dbgtFO · Post by **dbgtFO** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:11 pm

Kendamu wrote:
Kroni_Hunter wrote:
Kendamu wrote: It's not that they get smaller. It's that their power is so high that a Zenkai's boost becomes insubstantial. For example, if you have $5 and you add another $5 to it, that's really good as you've doubled your total! However, if you have $5000 and you add $5 then it's not a big deal.
Except that Zenkais were exponential every time we saw them. Goku had several on his way to Namek and only had a PL of 180,000 even with a Kaioken. Then he gets one more and just like that his baseline PL is 3,000,000. Vegeta only got a boost of 6,000 after fighting on Earth, then a substantial amount more the next time that put him between Zarbon and Recoome. After this, his next Zenkai jumps him to 1st Form Freeza's level. Then he gets yet another one that puts him just below Final Form Freeza.
And, eventually, the Saiyans keep getting stronger while the Zenkai stops getting bigger. There's a limit to exploiting it and they clearly passed it.

I could've swore I read about this from some official source. Anyone wanna help me out on this? I tend to not keep an intense track record of this stuff.

What about the change in Goku's battle power after that?
Even after the battle with Freeza, formidable enemies surpassing human knowledge appeared one after the other to face Goku. Though the power-ups received after having wounds healed became small, Goku and co. began using transformations and fusions to increase their battle powers, to the point where they could no longer be measured numerically...

Note
The ending paragraph seems to mostly be a way of explaining why no battle powers are available after the battle with Freeza, saying that past this point battle powers become simply immeasurable. The way the note about near-death power-ups becoming "small" is phrased in Japanese (sukunakunatta), it could either mean that they became small, infrequent, or simply insufficient.

http://www.kanzentai.com/bp.php?id=guide#daizenshuu

Kanzenshuu

Near-death power-up Saiyan become more powerful than SSJ?

Near-death power-up Saiyan become more powerful than SSJ?

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Re: Near-death power-up Saiyan become more powerful than SSJ

Re: Zenkai-regular Saiyajin become more powerful than an SSJ

Re: Zenkai-regular Saiyajin become more powerful than an SSJ