Chi-chi during "Z"?

[CatouttaHell]

Vegeta grew up on the Saiyan homeworld, personally slaughtered billions and he's a better father than Goku.

Vegeta wasn't "forced" into marriage like Goku was.

I think you learn to read at seven.

Seven? Maybe if you're a stupid kid.

[Eire]

In normal kindergarten you do learn and you are happy, because you don't have to remember everything since you can write it.

IMHO the major factor wasn't kid's abilities, but behaviour at home. In mine reading was obvious. In other the only book was Holy Bible and even that was covered by dust. The problems with kids who actually didn't read wasn't their mind, but rather lack of stimulation from parents.

[Ahiru77]

I don't really like Chi Chi since there's just no having fun with her. I can't hate her though, cause she gets what she deserves.

[Michsi]

In normal kindergarten you do learn and you are happy, because you don't have to remember everything since you can write it.

IMHO the major factor wasn't kid's abilities, but behaviour at home. In mine reading was obvious. In other the only book was Holy Bible and even that was covered by dust. The problems with kids who actually didn't read wasn't their mind, but rather lack of stimulation from parents.

I seriously can't remember as far back as 20 years ago if I could read before the age of 6. I just know it becomes "official" when you enter 1 grade. It's up to each to decide what and when they want their kids to start learing. I remember one friend who said she learned to read earlier than most because her older brother got tired of reading her stories and taught her the alphabet so she could read them herself and leave him alone.

Trying to keep things on topic: Chichi was almost obsesive with the learning.

[Rocketman]

Chichi
-Makes her son get an education
-"gawd what a bitch :evil:"

Piccolo
-Starves and beats the child he kidnapped
-"~mr. piccolo~ <3"

[Michsi]

Chichi
-Makes her son get an education
-"gawd what a bitch "

Piccolo
-Starves and beats the child he kidnapped
-"~mr. piccolo~ <3"

Gohan bruised and beaten, with a ugly looking swollen eye, comments that Piccolo isn't that bad. Yet he seems to be more afraid of his mother. Makes you wonder about Chichi....

Also fun fact: Piccolo out right states he can chose to become whatver he wants. Chichi doesn't seem to give him a choice.

[Eire]

Gohan bruised and beaten, with a ugly looking swollen eye, comments that Piccolo isn't that bad.

Stockholm syndrome. Or just he didn't want anyone to feel sorry for him.

Also kids tend to overreact when it comes to relations with parents. When I was a kid I used to cry over every bad grade and convince everyone that in home they will kill me although I was never given a slightest assumption to think so. As you can see I survived till today in one solid piece.

Also fun fact: Piccolo out right states he can chose to become whatver he wants. Chichi doesn't seem to give him a choice.

More than everything I wanted to be lazy kid. Unfortunately I wasn't given a choice and had to attend English class instead. Now you have to bicker with me. I got your point.

[Michsi]

Gohan bruised and beaten, with a ugly looking swollen eye, comments that Piccolo isn't that bad.

Stockholm syndrome. Or just he didn't want anyone to feel sorry for him.

Are you serious about this?

Are my parents abusive monsters if I care about her opinion more than all my teachers and tutors altogether?

I was talking about him being scared of her. And I obviously poking fun at this more than anything. Kinda taking this personal....

As a kid I wanted to spend all days swimming and listening to music. More than everything I wanted to be lazy kid. Unfortunately I wasn't given a choice and had to attend English class instead. Now you have to bicker with me. I got your point.

I was referring to what he wants to become in life. Really taking this personal. It wasn't directed at you.

[Eire]

Gohan bruised and beaten, with a ugly looking swollen eye, comments that Piccolo isn't that bad.

Stockholm syndrome. Or just he didn't want anyone to feel sorry for him.

Are you serious about this?

Yes. I would never told anyone besides my parents that my teacher is driving me crazy. Especially to moron adult who treats 5 years old kid as companion equal to him. (Jesus, Krilian's friendship with Gohan sucks so much that it make me sick)

Are my parents abusive monsters if I care about her opinion more than all my teachers and tutors altogether?

I was talking about him being scared of her. And I obviously poking fun at this more than anything. Kinda taking this personal....

[/quote]

No. I'm just showing you that if Chi-Chi was intended to be monster mother her PR is one big failure. As I've written- I was scared of my mother in some ways too. I also was a little histeric who tends to overrect when it comes to literally only people who made world worth living. But if you dare to tell something bad about them I'd tear out your balls (or put a snake in your bag- it was more difficult, but actually funnier)

Giving kid a choose sounds sweet, but as long as that kid doesn't have any vision of world outside the home and school someone must keep him short till he got some basis.

[Rocketman]

Stockholm syndrome.

Are you serious about this?

Gohan is a textbook case of Stockholm Syndrome. You couldn't make a more perfect example if you tried.

[Michsi]

(Jesus, Krilian's friendship with Gohan sucks so much that it make me sick)

Compleley and utterly your oppinion. I for one, see an older brother/uncle relationship between them. The only thing that makes them seem equal is their height. Krillin takes him seriously because of his power. I doubt the hang out much together aside from the shown situations.

No. I'm just showing you that if Chi-Chi was intended to be monster mother her PR is one big failure.

Wow, a monster mother .... I didn't say that and definetly didn't go that far, and again I was making fun of a situation by comparing Gohan's attitude towards Piccolo and Chichi and how it was portayed in the story.

As I've written- I was scared of my mother in some ways too. I also was a little histeric who tends to overrect when it comes to literally only people who made world worth living. But if you dare to tell something bad about them I'd tear out your balls (or put a snake in your bag- it was more difficult, but actually funnier)

I'm not gonna go into a discussion about real life situation comming from a discussion based on characture characters.
Again with your examples it seems you are taking this to personal levels.

Giving kid a choose sounds sweet, but as long as that kid doesn't have any vision of world outside the home and school someone must keep him short till he got some basis.

Again, maybe I have my own ideas about how a kid should be raised or shown the world but this seriously isn't the place and it's getting waaaay of topic.
I really tend to avoid about bringing in real life situations especially when it comes DB that I feel is type of story that doesn't take itself that seriously in the first place...

All I have to say that the way Chichi's idea of education was presented didn't seem healthy to me and that's all. Feel free to disagree.

Funny thing is ,if you read my first post in this thread, I'm actually taking her side.

Stockholm syndrome.

Are you serious about this?

Gohan is a textbook case of Stockholm Syndrome. You couldn't make a more perfect example if you tried.

As far as I know Stockholm syndrome implies when that there is a founded reason why the victime starts to care about the kidnapper (which is what happened with the stockholm situation), unless he is a masochist. I doubt he would've been that fond of Mr.Piccolo had Mr. Piccolo been like his sire.

It's an interesing way of looking at it though.....

[Piccolo Daimao]

Well, in the manga, I didn't see anything that suggested that she was making Gohan learn stuff way beyond his comprehension. Although she probably was strict about Gohan's education, since Gohan was scared of Chi-Chi being mad at him for not doing his homework.

What I actually meant to say is that a kid shouldn't "study" at the age of 4. Viz text is something like "it's a competitive world and it's never too early to get an edge" and that made me believe that she was little more than just strict. Perhaps a bit obsessive?

Well, she didn't want her son to miss pre-school because she wanted him to learn and not end up being absent from school all the time on account of Goku. And I studied at 4. I live in the UK, so it may be different in your country, but I started primary school when I was 4.

[Piccolo Daimao]

He's a naive hick Saiyan battle addict, so you can't really expect him to be that good a husband and father.

Vegeta grew up on the Saiyan homeworld, personally slaughtered billions and he's a better father than Goku.

Vegeta's not an uncivilised retard who grew up in a secluded forest away from society and didn't even know what marriage was. And Vegeta being a better father than Goku isn't saying much, since he's not that good a father either.

[SylentEcho]

It's not that Goku is a bad father. He loves his children and family. He just appears to be a little insensitive because he never grew up around people, he never knew what a family was.

He was always on his own as a kid and I think somewhere deep down inside, even after marriage, he always wanted to be alone somewhere just to train and get stronger and meet strong guys. I'm not saying he wanted to abandon everyone and go, just that he wouldn't mind it or see anything wrong with it.

[Rocketman]

As far as I know Stockholm syndrome implies when that there is a founded reason why the victime starts to care about the kidnapper (which is what happened with the stockholm situation), unless he is a masochist. I doubt he would've been that fond of Mr.Piccolo had Mr. Piccolo been like his sire.

It's an interesing way of looking at it though.....

Borrowed from another post of mine that borrowed from the wiki:

The following are viewed as the conditions necessary for Stockholm syndrome to occur.

* Hostages who develop Stockholm syndrome often view the perpetrator as giving life by simply not taking it. In this sense, the captor becomes the person in control of the captive’s basic needs for survival and the victim’s life itself.(Check)

* The hostage endures isolation from other people and has only the captor’s perspective available. Perpetrators routinely keep information about the outside world’s response to their actions from captives to keep them totally dependent.(Check)

* The hostage taker threatens to kill the victim and gives the perception of having the capability to do so. The captive judges it safer to align with the perpetrator, endure the hardship of captivity, and comply with the captor than to resist and face murder. (Check)

* The captive sees the perpetrator as showing some degree of kindness. Kindness serves as the cornerstone of Stockholm syndrome; the condition will not develop unless the captor exhibits it in some form toward the hostage. However, captives often misinterpret a lack of abuse as kindness and may develop feelings of appreciation for this perceived benevolence. If the captor is purely evil and abusive, the hostage will respond with hatred. But, if perpetrators show some kindness, victims will submerge the anger they feel in response to the terror and concentrate on the captors’ “good side” to protect themselves. (Check)

...In many cases, capture may also involve the killing (or threat of killing) of the captive's relatives, thereby isolating the captive. The captive is subjected to isolation and so sees even a small act, such as providing amenities, as a great favour. Such captives may side with their captors while believing their captors have conferred on them great importance and love. (And check)

[roidrage]

As people have said, doesn't every child fear their parents? That's kind of the idea. If kids never acknowledged their parents' authority we'd all be brats.

And I very much doubt Gohan is a case of Stockholm syndrome. I don't think that idea ever came to Toriyama; the idea is supposed to be Gohan sees Piccolo for what he is, a conflicted individual, having come to know him well, and also has matured so that he can look back on his training (which would have been hell for him before) and say, "Well, that wasn't so bad."

What you have to understand is that Chi-Chi would probably be a very good mother by "normal" standards. It's only in the context of the series (where the Earth is in mortal danger every other day) that her concerns regarding Gohan's education and future seem silly and petty.

[ulisa]

While I can tolerate ChiChi now, a lot better than I used to, it is her attitude at the beginning of Z that initially rubbed me the wrong way. I like her a lot better during the Buu Saga and onward. She is also much more tolerable in the manga.

As for her attitude at the beginning of Z, I can understand a mother wanting to keep her child safe. I can understand wanting to give her child a full advantage. I can certainly understand not wanting a child involved in all the battles the fighters get into.

However, the extent that she pushes Gohan into his studies borders on psychotic. As previously stated by Michsi, at age 4, children learn primarily through play and cause and effect from natural consequences. Krillin even states during the Saiyan battles to Piccolo that if Gohan were a regular child, he'd be in kindergarten (though I cannot recall if that's the dub or not) During those early school years, one would first be introduced to very basic equations and grammar, etc etc. Most early kindergarten years are based on introducing a child to basic health education, how to interact with others, and, again, exploration through play. ChiChi seems dead-set on the "book study" method which isn't very effective, especially at such a young age.

I likewise got the impression that she allowed him very little time to go outside and play. Now, granted, a child usually wants to play more than they want to work on school but she also seemed so stuck on "only this much playtime, rest for study" that she didn't take anything else into account. That said, the brain can really only absorb so much material at once. I believe it's 20-30 minutes before you should ideally take a break for 10-20 minutes. This is also why studying for small chunks over several weeks helps one absorb material better and recall it easier than trying to cram it all in a one-nighter.

That being said, I think some of the time, when she tries to force the studying on him, she flat out refuses to see what else is going on, case-in-point, in the anime when ChiChi drops his school books in front of him while his father lays dying on a cot. C'mon...the kid's father is dying and you expect the child to be able to focus? Shouldn't it be more important to cherish the time he has with Goku, especially considering they know from Trunks how lethal that virus is? I found that scene especially cold, more so since in the anime, they have Gohan carting around Yajirobe and Bulma, when all the child keeps saying he wants is to see his father.

Another thing I found interesting was her outright refusal to allow Gohan to train. Now, I understand her not wanting her son to get involved in the battles. What sane mother would? However, training with his father seemed to be something Gohan _did_ enjoy, not the extent his father did but I think he ate up that personal time with Goku and probably did feel a sense of accomplishment as he grew stronger. His self confidence certainly seemed to increase after their periods of training. She flat out forbids that for the majority of time. While it would make sense for her to forbid his involvement in battles, what negative is coming from him training with his father? I understand the not wanting him to train with Piccolo but his father?

All that being said, I think Gohan's own actions speak volumes about his and his mother's relationship. For me, a major point against her was Gohan's reaction when he finally reaches Mount Paouz in the Saiyan Saga. He stands there, looking down at his home, realizing his mother is waiting...and walks away back to the man who kidnapped him. I've always thought someone's actions speak a lot more than what they say and that act, to me, said a lot. Yes, this strange man is putting me through hell but I'd rather be there than at home with my mother? That's just sad.

The way she flat out ignores anything Goku goes through is pretty annoying too. Now, I'm not expecting her to understand the way a Saiyan mind works, given they tend to be flat-out battle junkies but can't she appreciate some of what his fighting does? I understand her diving over Goku to check on Gohan first in the Saiyan saga but wouldn't you then think she would check on her husband? IIRC Yajirobe says something to the effect of "hey, your husband's hurt too." to which she comments it's his fault anyway. Correct me if I'm wrong, it's been a while since I've seen that episode.

Her priorities seem to be pretty screwed up at times too. Several times, she comments that the world can fall apart and burn for all she cares as long as her son gets an education. What good is an education going to do him if there's no world to succeed in?

As for the "doesn't every child fear their parent" thing? I tend to disagree with this. I think children may fear their parents' anger, fear disappointing them but that's different than fearing a parent themselves. I've worked with regular kids in daycares and also with children with psychological problems in an InPatient Hospitilzation Program so I've actually seen both: children who fear their parents act very different than someone that fears their parents' anger. Gohan tends to act more like the former; he flat out doesn't want to go home because he's afraid of what his mother will say or do, at the end of the Namek Saga. He recoils back when she starts screaming. His entire body language around her is a lot different than when he's around his father or one of the others. He seems more on edge, more jumpy, and less willing to speak his mind. chiChi is also not too shy about declaring what a "delinquient" he'll become if he doesn't study, though in her defense, this does happen more in the dub than the original.

Granted, this is just my interpretation but it was always the impression I got: "with Mother, I have to do exactly as she says or she may think I've become a delinquient or no-good."

And a final point which has always bugged me. ChiChi is portrayed as an overprotective mother, pretty well illustrated by her attempts to make it to Namek after her son. Well, if that's true, why didn't she try to go after him in the Saiyan Saga? She just went home and waited? Wouldn't it have been more in character for her to try and track him down?

Ulisa

[Rocketman]

anime ChiChi

Stop right there. Toei hates Chichi for stealing Goku from them.


The use of 'overprotective' is also weird, because that seems to mean you think Chichi is reacting to threats that don't exist.

[roidrage]

anime ChiChi

Stop right there. Toei hates Chichi for stealing Goku from them.


The use of 'overprotective' is also weird, because that seems to mean you think Chichi is reacting to threats that don't exist.

@Ulisa: No doubt you know more than I do, but let's remember, this an anime/manga. I always got the impression that Gohan was an exceptionally bright child, and very smart for his age. In the anime, at 4 years old, he's able to deduce what kind of model a robot is by looking at it. Is that the way it works in reality? Of course not. But that's how it works in the series. So Gohan probably would learn through the "cramming" method if he didn't have to deal with distractions.

@Rocketman: I'll have to rewatch the episodes, but I'm pretty sure no one told Chi-Chi exactly what happened on Namek. IIRC, she didn't try to get to Namek because Gohan was getting his neck broken, but because she thought he was goofing off. He was in danger, but not in the way she assumed.

[Gaffer Tape]

No, actually, in the anime, she seemed to have some kind of premonition that Gohan was in mortal danger... right as he was getting his neck handed to him by Reacoom. Make of that what you will.