I can't find any concrete evidence in the manga to support either theory. I think that it's pretty much left open to how ever you want to interpret it.
Personally, I think that Vegeta needed Babidis help to achieve SSj2, and he was referring to Gohan when he said "....as well."
Goku was only going to be back on earth for one day and when Vegeta realized that Goku had reached SSj2 he didn't have a choice. If he was to be able to fight him seriously that day he had to gain as much power as he could as soon as possible.
Vegeta-Super Saiyan 2 before his Majin power up?
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BleachTrunks
- Newbie
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- Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 8:58 pm
I'd like to offer my input on this subject as well, since the very existance of the idea that Vegeta was unable to become SSJ2 without the help of Babidi is infuriating.
Well, you know where I stand on the subject, but my argument, I hope, won't come across as one that is highly oppinionated and lacking substance with a lot of hand-waving. First, as has been pointed out, there was Vegeta's inner monologue during Yakon's defeat at the hands of Goku. For the sake of clarity here is the original anime script of what Vegeta says after Goku kills Yakon:
Japanese:
"Naruhodona." "Yahari Kakarotto no yarou mo kabe o koeyagatte. Suupa Saiyajin no kabe o." "Ano yo de shugyou shita nana nen nanka?"
My translation:
I see. As I expected, that bastard Goku also surpassed that barrier. The barrier of the Super Saiyan. In that world he trained somehow for seven years?"
Fansub translation:
I see. It looks like Kakarotto overcame that barrier too. The barrier of Super Saiyanjin. He must have been training for that in the after life for the last seven years.
Personally I always found those lines to be rather compelling evidence. In point of fact, I think the use of "yahari" makes a pretty clear case for it, implying in its use here that Vegeta already was assuming Goku could go SSJ2. Sure you can sit in the "also was refering to Gohan" camp, but I think the camp fire gets a little colder when you consider Vegeta's reaction, or lack thereof, to this revelation. Had he been unable to ascend as well, he undoubtedly would have gone into the normal "that damned Kakkarotto" tirade. The fact is that he witnessed a clear indication to the height of Goku's new power, guessed that Goku could become a SSJ2, and was in no way surprised about it. For my part, this was enough to confirm my suspicions when I was first watching the series.
Secondly, as Akira points out, Vegeta himself is more than willing to step in for Gohan knowing the power of Gohan and suspecting the limits of Dabura's power. I firmly believe that either Goku or Vegeta could have stepped in and had their way with Dabura, but that is neither here nor there. The point is that he knew their power levels from watching the fight, the strength of Gohan as a SSJ2, and wanted to take over for him because Gohan was too weak. Ah, but Adnan points out that Vegeta is untrustworthy! This argument is honestly the only thing that one can say to undermine the obviousness of my assertion that he was SSJ2-capable. Thankfully, I find this a complete falsehood and will address all the relevent encounters Adnan mentioned as evidence to Vegeta being capable of making a false statement of the sort he would be making in the Dabura/Gohan fight were he unable to go SSJ2.
Freeza:
Vegeta, on multiple occasions, believes himself the better of Freeza when he clearly never was such. Does this mean that he is an idiot that can't tell when he is outgunned? Certainly his encounters with Freeza are the best evidence to support any claims against Vegita's word. However, I will point out that Vegeta was slightly(putting it mildly) unhinged during most of the time he was dealing with Freeza on Namek. When he considered himself Freeza's superior it was simply because he was grasping futily at the straws he had left. He would receive a power up and, given what information he had as to Freeza's power at the time, would jump in to fight with some confidence. Freeza, of course, was hiding his power through the means of being "untransformed" and later in terms of percentages in his final form. So, basically, Vegeta was working with an unknown and his hate and desire to kill Freeza would get the best of him, especially with a relatively inexperienced, at the time, "ki sensing ability."
Android 18:
Once again, we see him not having all of the information and, also, we have him in a position of extreme cockiness(more than usual for even Vegeta) since he had just recently obtained SSJ1. By not having all the information, I simply mean that he couldn't sense the androids or their energy, thus he really has no reason to believe that some dumb "robot" is more powerfull than the proud warrior Prince Vegeta, newly christened with the legendary SSJ power.
As for Broly, Bojack and Janemba, I refuse to examine them at all since they are from the DBZ movies, which are, simply put, bologna in terms of the actual story. Thus any assumptions you make on Vegeta's character from the movies are invalid as far as I am concerned. Back to real, story-based, arguments.
Perfect Cell:
Vegeta never states, that I can recall, that he is necessarily stronger than Perfect Cell. Sure, he is still very cocky after he lets Cell transform, but that changes very quickly when he sees their power difference. Again, Vegeta is working under less than full information. He doesn't like to give up, but I think it's pretty clear from his shocked looks during the fight and his inability to hurt his opponent (though who doesn't love his Final Flash in that fight? =p) that he is fighting a losing battle and that he knows it. Put yourself in his shoes: You've just let your opponent become stronger than you and you know he wants you dead... oh, and you're of a proud warrior race and the prince to boot. He knows he can't run and he is still enraged at the turn of events, so he fights until he is thoroughly beat to hell.
Majin Buu:
Lastly, I don't see your arguement in listing Buu at all. Put simply, he was overconfident before he had the facts and then, once he knew what he was up against, again had no option but to fight(admittedly in a futile and stupid way). He believes Buu is not that strong, then once he hatches and Goku confronts him over it they both "agree"(I use agree loosely here =p) that he is a worthy enemy. He even knows going into the fight that he is probably not going to survive. He was his normal arrogant self before he knew the depths of Majin Buu's power and then he accepted his fate, probably to die, fighting Majin Buu.
Basically, in all the prior instances, Vegeta wasn't informed of the situation properly and any claims he made as to who the victor of a fight would be were done under false assumptions. In the Dabura/Gohan fight there are no false assumptions to be made. None. Zip. He clearly sees Gohan go SSJ2 and can clearly sense his power level.
With my defense against the attack on Vegeta's character freshly in mind, consider the facts, yes, facts, surrounding this fight again:
1) Vegeta states that both he and Goku are probably stronger than Gohan now.
2) Vegeta can sense both Gohan's and Dabura's power levels.
3) He knows Gohan's strength in SSJ2 full well.
4) He is willing to fight in Gohan's stead.
These are indisputable facts.
Also, consider his frustration with the length of the fight for a moment. He is impatient because he doesn't want to miss his chance to settle the score with Goku, a fight which he has been anticipating for around 10 years or so if I have my timeline relatively in order. He considers the entire Babidi thing a waste of time in fact and, knowing Dabura's power, still just considers him a nuisance and not a real threat on his person. Throughout the beginning of the fight he just kind of looks on with that superior "hmph, this is dumb" look whenever they show him, which then becomes annoyance, and then finally full blown rage at the stagnant situation.
Regardless of everything else though, what it all comes down to, is this: The only thing that one really needs to consider here, the ONLY THING, is whether Vegeta is just THAT stupid that he would claim that he is stronger than a power level he is FULLY aware of and would be willing to throw his very life away if he were lying about it. I personally can't find such evidence as to make me think for even a tenth of a second that Vegeta is in possession of such idiocy. Vegeta may be arrogant, pigheaded, and proud to a fault, but THAT obviously stupid? Not a chance. Sure, they may not implicitly state that he can become a SSJ2 before he allows himself to be taken over by Babidi, but as far as I am concerned it was unnecessary. The facts are all staring the viewer in the face and if he/she *chooses* not to accept them then I believe the viewer is simply deluding himself/herself about it.
There may be more evidence within the series that I have missed, but I see no reason to explore the point further. If this argument hasn't convinced the reader of Vegeta's strength at the time in question, I can only assume there is no convincing him/her.
Well, you know where I stand on the subject, but my argument, I hope, won't come across as one that is highly oppinionated and lacking substance with a lot of hand-waving. First, as has been pointed out, there was Vegeta's inner monologue during Yakon's defeat at the hands of Goku. For the sake of clarity here is the original anime script of what Vegeta says after Goku kills Yakon:
Japanese:
"Naruhodona." "Yahari Kakarotto no yarou mo kabe o koeyagatte. Suupa Saiyajin no kabe o." "Ano yo de shugyou shita nana nen nanka?"
My translation:
I see. As I expected, that bastard Goku also surpassed that barrier. The barrier of the Super Saiyan. In that world he trained somehow for seven years?"
Fansub translation:
I see. It looks like Kakarotto overcame that barrier too. The barrier of Super Saiyanjin. He must have been training for that in the after life for the last seven years.
Personally I always found those lines to be rather compelling evidence. In point of fact, I think the use of "yahari" makes a pretty clear case for it, implying in its use here that Vegeta already was assuming Goku could go SSJ2. Sure you can sit in the "also was refering to Gohan" camp, but I think the camp fire gets a little colder when you consider Vegeta's reaction, or lack thereof, to this revelation. Had he been unable to ascend as well, he undoubtedly would have gone into the normal "that damned Kakkarotto" tirade. The fact is that he witnessed a clear indication to the height of Goku's new power, guessed that Goku could become a SSJ2, and was in no way surprised about it. For my part, this was enough to confirm my suspicions when I was first watching the series.
Secondly, as Akira points out, Vegeta himself is more than willing to step in for Gohan knowing the power of Gohan and suspecting the limits of Dabura's power. I firmly believe that either Goku or Vegeta could have stepped in and had their way with Dabura, but that is neither here nor there. The point is that he knew their power levels from watching the fight, the strength of Gohan as a SSJ2, and wanted to take over for him because Gohan was too weak. Ah, but Adnan points out that Vegeta is untrustworthy! This argument is honestly the only thing that one can say to undermine the obviousness of my assertion that he was SSJ2-capable. Thankfully, I find this a complete falsehood and will address all the relevent encounters Adnan mentioned as evidence to Vegeta being capable of making a false statement of the sort he would be making in the Dabura/Gohan fight were he unable to go SSJ2.
Freeza:
Vegeta, on multiple occasions, believes himself the better of Freeza when he clearly never was such. Does this mean that he is an idiot that can't tell when he is outgunned? Certainly his encounters with Freeza are the best evidence to support any claims against Vegita's word. However, I will point out that Vegeta was slightly(putting it mildly) unhinged during most of the time he was dealing with Freeza on Namek. When he considered himself Freeza's superior it was simply because he was grasping futily at the straws he had left. He would receive a power up and, given what information he had as to Freeza's power at the time, would jump in to fight with some confidence. Freeza, of course, was hiding his power through the means of being "untransformed" and later in terms of percentages in his final form. So, basically, Vegeta was working with an unknown and his hate and desire to kill Freeza would get the best of him, especially with a relatively inexperienced, at the time, "ki sensing ability."
Android 18:
Once again, we see him not having all of the information and, also, we have him in a position of extreme cockiness(more than usual for even Vegeta) since he had just recently obtained SSJ1. By not having all the information, I simply mean that he couldn't sense the androids or their energy, thus he really has no reason to believe that some dumb "robot" is more powerfull than the proud warrior Prince Vegeta, newly christened with the legendary SSJ power.
As for Broly, Bojack and Janemba, I refuse to examine them at all since they are from the DBZ movies, which are, simply put, bologna in terms of the actual story. Thus any assumptions you make on Vegeta's character from the movies are invalid as far as I am concerned. Back to real, story-based, arguments.
Perfect Cell:
Vegeta never states, that I can recall, that he is necessarily stronger than Perfect Cell. Sure, he is still very cocky after he lets Cell transform, but that changes very quickly when he sees their power difference. Again, Vegeta is working under less than full information. He doesn't like to give up, but I think it's pretty clear from his shocked looks during the fight and his inability to hurt his opponent (though who doesn't love his Final Flash in that fight? =p) that he is fighting a losing battle and that he knows it. Put yourself in his shoes: You've just let your opponent become stronger than you and you know he wants you dead... oh, and you're of a proud warrior race and the prince to boot. He knows he can't run and he is still enraged at the turn of events, so he fights until he is thoroughly beat to hell.
Majin Buu:
Lastly, I don't see your arguement in listing Buu at all. Put simply, he was overconfident before he had the facts and then, once he knew what he was up against, again had no option but to fight(admittedly in a futile and stupid way). He believes Buu is not that strong, then once he hatches and Goku confronts him over it they both "agree"(I use agree loosely here =p) that he is a worthy enemy. He even knows going into the fight that he is probably not going to survive. He was his normal arrogant self before he knew the depths of Majin Buu's power and then he accepted his fate, probably to die, fighting Majin Buu.
Basically, in all the prior instances, Vegeta wasn't informed of the situation properly and any claims he made as to who the victor of a fight would be were done under false assumptions. In the Dabura/Gohan fight there are no false assumptions to be made. None. Zip. He clearly sees Gohan go SSJ2 and can clearly sense his power level.
With my defense against the attack on Vegeta's character freshly in mind, consider the facts, yes, facts, surrounding this fight again:
1) Vegeta states that both he and Goku are probably stronger than Gohan now.
2) Vegeta can sense both Gohan's and Dabura's power levels.
3) He knows Gohan's strength in SSJ2 full well.
4) He is willing to fight in Gohan's stead.
These are indisputable facts.
Also, consider his frustration with the length of the fight for a moment. He is impatient because he doesn't want to miss his chance to settle the score with Goku, a fight which he has been anticipating for around 10 years or so if I have my timeline relatively in order. He considers the entire Babidi thing a waste of time in fact and, knowing Dabura's power, still just considers him a nuisance and not a real threat on his person. Throughout the beginning of the fight he just kind of looks on with that superior "hmph, this is dumb" look whenever they show him, which then becomes annoyance, and then finally full blown rage at the stagnant situation.
Regardless of everything else though, what it all comes down to, is this: The only thing that one really needs to consider here, the ONLY THING, is whether Vegeta is just THAT stupid that he would claim that he is stronger than a power level he is FULLY aware of and would be willing to throw his very life away if he were lying about it. I personally can't find such evidence as to make me think for even a tenth of a second that Vegeta is in possession of such idiocy. Vegeta may be arrogant, pigheaded, and proud to a fault, but THAT obviously stupid? Not a chance. Sure, they may not implicitly state that he can become a SSJ2 before he allows himself to be taken over by Babidi, but as far as I am concerned it was unnecessary. The facts are all staring the viewer in the face and if he/she *chooses* not to accept them then I believe the viewer is simply deluding himself/herself about it.
There may be more evidence within the series that I have missed, but I see no reason to explore the point further. If this argument hasn't convinced the reader of Vegeta's strength at the time in question, I can only assume there is no convincing him/her.
You make some good points Bleach Trunks, but everybody in this discussion seems to forget that Vegeta is weaker than Pilaf so I don't believe he even reached SSJ1, let alone 2.
I think all you Vegeta fanboys were just high while watching ep. 129, and at some moment during your psychedelic hallucinations said to yourselves "woah! this is good stuff! Now I'm seeing Vegeta super saiyans!" and decided not to stop for fear of discovering Vegeta is actually weaker than Pilaf.
Wake up guys and face reality! Vegeta actually died in the very next episode fighting Android 19. It was a very sad and tragic battle but Vegeta fought hard and long till the end. You would have been proud.
Oh and in case you were wondering and too lazy to find out yourselves, it was Pilaf that finally defeated the androids in ep. 137, hence the fact that Vegeta is weaker than him.
My brother's friend's cousin who went out with this girl who works in the basement at FUNimation can confirm all of this.
**runs**
I think all you Vegeta fanboys were just high while watching ep. 129, and at some moment during your psychedelic hallucinations said to yourselves "woah! this is good stuff! Now I'm seeing Vegeta super saiyans!" and decided not to stop for fear of discovering Vegeta is actually weaker than Pilaf.
Wake up guys and face reality! Vegeta actually died in the very next episode fighting Android 19. It was a very sad and tragic battle but Vegeta fought hard and long till the end. You would have been proud.
Oh and in case you were wondering and too lazy to find out yourselves, it was Pilaf that finally defeated the androids in ep. 137, hence the fact that Vegeta is weaker than him.
My brother's friend's cousin who went out with this girl who works in the basement at FUNimation can confirm all of this.
**runs**
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BleachTrunks
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