Chi-chi during "Z"?

[Gaffer Tape]

No, actually, in the anime, she seemed to have some kind of premonition that Gohan was in mortal danger... right as he was getting his neck handed to him by Reacoom. Make of that what you will.

[roidrage]

No, actually, in the anime, she seemed to have some kind of premonition that Gohan was in mortal danger... right as he was getting his neck handed to him by Reacoom. Make of that what you will.

Maybe it's not that she's overprotective so much as jumping to conclusions. Why would she assume the Super Saiyan automatically makes one a "delinquent" when that's obviously not true. She had no way of seeing Goku's first transformation into it.

[CatouttaHell]

Didn't she think at first that Gohan dyed his hair blonde or something? Either way she really can't be blamed for being overprotective after all of the shit that goes on non-stop (her husband gets killed by a demon king who then kidnaps her 4 year old son for a year, as soon as he comes back he flies off to another planet because he wants to bring back the same demon king that she saw trying to torture her husband to death, etc, etc.)

[Rocketman]

Maybe it's not that she's overprotective so much as jumping to conclusions. Why would she assume the Super Saiyan automatically makes one a "delinquent" when that's obviously not true. She had no way of seeing Goku's first transformation into it.

I heard that was a cultural thing, that dying your hair blond meant you were in a gang or something like that.

[Chuquita]

Toei disliking Chi-Chi for that never occurred to me; it does make a lot of sense though (especially with how the podcast mentioned a few episodes ago that readers in Japan were more upset about Goku getting married--and thus worried that his personality would change--than about his growth spurt before the 23rd Tenkiachi Budoukai.).

I found that surprising because I thought that sort of fan-reaction didn't occur when it involved a shounen anime character. I always thought that sort of outcry only occurred when it involved slice-of-life/moe anime characters.
At least that's what this situation sounds like to me; fans and people at Toei not minding adult Goku, but on the same coin wanting him to remain single indefinitely. Also reminds me of what I've heard about how the idol scene works in Japan.


I wonder, do you think Toei would've been nicer to Chi-Chi if she'd just stayed on as another fighter like Kuririn and Yamcha if she hadn't married Goku? I mean, she probably would've faded into the backdrop like they did once Z passed the saiyajin arc, but maybe they wouldn't have blown that one aspect of her character out of proportion?

[roidrage]

Toei disliking Chi-Chi for that never occurred to me; it does make a lot of sense though (especially with how the podcast mentioned a few episodes ago that readers in Japan were more upset about Goku getting married--and thus worried that his personality would change--than about his growth spurt before the 23rd Tenkiachi Budoukai.).

I found that surprising because I thought that sort of fan-reaction didn't occur when it involved a shounen anime character. I always thought that sort of outcry only occurred when it involved slice-of-life/moe anime characters.
At least that's what this situation sounds like to me; fans and people at Toei not minding adult Goku, but on the same coin wanting him to remain single indefinitely. Also reminds me of what I've heard about how the idol scene works in Japan.


I wonder, do you think Toei would've been nicer to Chi-Chi if she'd just stayed on as another fighter like Kuririn and Yamcha if she hadn't married Goku? I mean, she probably would've faded into the backdrop like they did once Z passed the saiyajin arc, but maybe they wouldn't have blown that one aspect of her character out of proportion?

What they might have played up if that happened was her constant chasing of Goku. Other than that, she probably would've disappeared eventually.

[Michsi]

*cracks knuckes*

All right, let's do this!

* Hostages who develop Stockholm syndrome often view the perpetrator as giving life by simply not taking it. In this sense, the captor becomes the person in control of the captive’s basic needs for survival and the victim’s life itself.

The whole point of the first 6 months was for Gohan to become self suficient and not depend on anybody for survival.
He doesn't need Piccolo

* The hostage endures isolation from other people and has only the captor’s perspective available. Perpetrators routinely keep information about the outside world’s response to their actions from captives to keep them totally dependent.

Isolation, yes! Everything else, no!

* The hostage taker threatens to kill the victim and gives the perception of having the capability to do so. The captive judges it safer to align with the perpetrator, endure the hardship of captivity, and comply with the captor than to resist and face murder.

He does threaten him to keep him from crying , yes. Yet I believe Gohan aligns himself with Piccolo because he admits he's right?

* The captive sees the perpetrator as showing some degree of kindness. Kindness serves as the cornerstone of Stockholm syndrome; the condition will not develop unless the captor exhibits it in some form toward the hostage. However, captives often misinterpret a lack of abuse as kindness and may develop feelings of appreciation for this perceived benevolence. If the captor is purely evil and abusive, the hostage will respond with hatred. But, if perpetrators show some kindness, victims will submerge the anger they feel in response to the terror and concentrate on the captors’ “good side” to protect themselves.


Or maybe it was genuine kindness that he saw in Piccolo and Gohan learned to see the bigger picture and alinged himself with Piccolo because he saw that he was right? This statement seems to imply that he victime has a skewerd perception of his captor but with Goku's statement and Piccolo's later actions shows that it wasn't the case here.


...In many cases, capture may also involve the killing (or threat of killing) of the captive's relatives, thereby isolating the captive. The captive is subjected to isolation and so sees even a small act, such as providing amenities, as a great favour. Such captives may side with their captors while believing their captors have conferred on them great importance and love.

Piccolo never threatens to kill anybody of Gohan's family. And I sincerly doubt Gohan sees Piccolo that way.

It's simply how you chose to interpret it but it's seriouse stretch to view it like this.

[Rocketman]

The whole point of the first 6 months was for Gohan to become self suficient and not depend on anybody for survival.
He doesn't need Piccolo

Piccolo placed him there, Piccolo held sole power over Gohan's living or dying.

Isolation, yes! Everything else, no!

Isolation is the key part. The rest is more applicable to the real world's mass media than the Dragonball Earth's comparative silence.

Gohan aligns himself with Piccolo because he admits he's right?

Believing the captor is right to imprison and abuse is Stockholm Syndrome.

Again quoting, "Captives who exhibit the syndrome tend to sympathize with and think highly of their captors. When subjected to prolonged captivity, these captives can develop a strong bond with their captors"

Piccolo's later actions

The Syndrome can run both ways. Though it's much rarer, when the captor devlops sympathy for the victim, it's called Lima Syndrome, after a hostage situation in Lima, Peru in 1996

Piccolo never threatens to kill anybody of Gohan's family.

Well, obviously, because he kills Gohan's father just before abducting him.

[Michsi]

Piccolo placed him there, Piccolo held sole power over Gohan's living or dying.

Except that he didn't because he went away, Gohan was completely independant. After that he was strong enough to fight back to some extant.
And the familiarity with which Gohan starts adressing Piccolo shows that he didn't fear for his life anymore.

Isolation is the key part. The rest is more applicable to the real world's mass media than the Dragonball Earth's comparative silence.

I thought it was about withholding information and therfore depending on the captor for knowledge of the outside world. Which isn't the case with either of them.

The Syndrome can run both ways. Though it's much rarer, when the captor devlops sympathy for the victim, it's called Lima Syndrome, after a hostage situation in Lima, Peru in 1996

I guess you could call the ability to show kindness and act upon it despite being born from concentrated evil a "syndrome"

believing the captor is right

But Piccolo IS right!

Well, obviously, because he kills Gohan's father just before abducting him.

But there is still no threatening. Gohan probably understood the necessity of the action.

Seriously, it stopped being a "kidnapping" after Piccolo left Gohan on his own.

[Gaffer Tape]

Seriously, it stopped being a "kidnapping" after Piccolo left Gohan on his own.

I'm almost finding this whole thing too funny to interrupt, but I just had to point out that saying that is like saying, "It stopped being a 'kidnapping' after I locked you in my basement so I could go on vacation." He was on an island surrounded on all sides by impenetrable desert!

[Michsi]

Seriously, it stopped being a "kidnapping" after Piccolo left Gohan on his own.

I'm almost finding this whole thing too funny to interrupt, but I just had to point out that saying that is like saying, "It stopped being a 'kidnapping' after I locked you in my basement so I could go on vacation." He was on an island surrounded on all sides by impenetrable desert!

Which Gohan could handle without a problem after a few months judging by how he handled himself. If you learn how to pick the lock but chose not to do so, is still kidnapping?

I don't usually like to use fillers for an example but the episode in which Gohan manages to escape and almost make it home but chooses to return on his own his in right in tune with the original story and what I think Gohan's mindset was during the whole situation.

[Gaffer Tape]

Which Gohan could handle without a problem after a few months judging by how he handled himself. If you learn how to pick the lock but chose not to do so, is still kidnapping?

Legally speaking... yes. Yes, I believe it is.

And this is when I cue Rocketman to come back in to say that Gohan not choosing to "pick the lock" is a definite symptom of Stockholm Syndrome, and the debate continues in a circular fashion! Wheeeee!

[Michsi]

Circular debates can be fun! Wheeee! There is a limit to how serious a DB thread should get

If Gohan doesn't press any charges, it probably isn't even legally

Also this happens before he forms any bond with him because he hadn't even gotten train with him yet.

[SylentEcho]

I have to agree with Michsi here, Gohan's not a Stockholm syndrome case.

[Petsu]

Well maybe just to stray away from the kidnapping. . .

I would have liked to see Chi-Chi have a much bigger role in Dragon Ball Z. At least a big a role as Kurririn. Sure it might have constricted Son Gohan somewhat and shadowed Bulma but it would have been nice to see her fighting capabilities improve.

For some reason I have this funny image of Chi-Chi fighting alongside of Piccolo. . .truly strange. But Chi-Chi could also have perished like Kurririn did, and serve for some of Son Gohan's anger and maybe even some Son Goku's.

Haha yes it seems rather silly.

[Rocketman]

If you learn how to pick the lock but chose not to do so, is still kidnapping?

"A person may not escape from an enemy even if they were treated cruelly. This is because they enter into a defense mechanism called Dissociation. This is a normal defense mechanism in persons exposed to trauma. When they enter a dissociative state, they can cope with the abuse they endure. Dissociation may be so much that they do not take their opportunities to escape when they have the chance."

[Michsi]

Dissociation may be so much that they do not take their opportunities to escape when they have the chance."

He had little to no interaction with Piccolo when he had his chance to escape. There was "no bond" at that time. Does Stockholm syndrome happen right of the bat?

And if we are going into real life psychological issues, we could also discuss the psychological consequences of excesive studying enforced by parents, break downs and so on so forth, while we are at it. Really doubt it'll be as intersting though.

[Rocketman]

He had little to no interaction with Piccolo when he had his chance to escape. There was "no bond" at that time. Does Stockholm syndrome happen right of the bat?

It doesn't take long. The hostage situation that the term refers to lasted five days.

"According to the psychoanalytic view of the syndrome, this tendency might be the result of employing the strategy evolved by newborn babies to form an emotional attachment to the nearest powerful adult in order to maximize the probability that this adult will enable—at the very least—the survival of the child, if not also prove to be a good parental figure."

Gohan was already dependent on parental figures.


On a different but related note, one part of the series I HATE is the whining over telling Chichi about what happened, and the fact that they don't until she finds them to ask what's going on. Oh yes, how dare she be angry that her husband was killed and her son kidnapped by the Devil, gawd chichi get over it *goes back to kame house to loaf around*.

[Michsi]

It doesn't take long. The hostage situation that the term refers to lasted five days.

We are talking about under 10 minutes before Piccolo abandons him.

"According to the psychoanalytic view of the syndrome, this tendency might be the result of employing the strategy evolved by newborn babies to form an emotional attachment to the nearest powerful adult in order to maximize the probability that this adult will enable—at the very least—the survival of the child, if not also prove to be a good parental figure."

Gohan was already dependent on parental figures.

Gohan was 4. Of course he was dependent on parental figures.
But after 6 months on his own he no longer needs anybody to look after him, or depend on Piccolo for survival.
There is a distinct lack of fear towards Piccolo afterwards that makes this syndrome work here.

But seriously now, the author's intention was clear here and thinking Gohan's respect and admiration is the result stockholm syndrome is just silly, even without having to come up with all those contra arguments.

On a different but related note, one part of the series I HATE is the whining over telling Chichi about what happened, and the fact that they don't until she finds them to ask what's going on. Oh yes, how dare she be angry that her husband was killed and her son kidnapped by the Devil, gawd chichi get over it *goes back to kame house to loaf around*.

I wouldn't rush to tell a woman about her husband being dead and her child being taken by his worst enemy either.
And they seemed to be a little preocupied with the iminent disaster heading their way or hope they could bring Goku back to life before she finds out. Nobody blamed her for her reaction but they were understandably afraid of the whole deal.

[Piccolo Daimao]

On a different but related note, one part of the series I HATE is the whining over telling Chichi about what happened, and the fact that they don't until she finds them to ask what's going on. Oh yes, how dare she be angry that her husband was killed and her son kidnapped by the Devil, gawd chichi get over it *goes back to kame house to loaf around*.

That's not why they didn't want to tell her. Telling a woman that her husband had been killed and her son had been kidnapped by his worst enemy isn't exactly easy.