Fights with questionable victors

[Nineteen]

Most fights in Dragonball and Z are pretty clear-cut: someone wins and someone goes home with their tail (or other prehensile appendage) tucked between their legs. This thread's devoted to a discussion of fights that seemed evenly matched but, for whatever reason, weren't concluded or were interrupted in some way.

The biggest examples I can think of off the top of my head are two involving Piccolo: against second-form Freeza, and again against Android 17. The former's a bit more clear cut: I think it's pretty obvious that Piccolo was intended to have the upper hand until Freeza transformed. The former's a bit more controversial (obviously, given the presence of another thread dedicated to it on the first page), but I still feel that Piccolo would ultimately have come out on top had Cell not broken it up.

Are there any other fights you feel resulted in questionable victories? Let's hear 'em

[Michsi]

Hmmm, maybe Vegeta vs Goku&everyone in the saiyan saga.
Goku doesn't win against Vegeta but he achieves his goal....but if it hadn't been for the monkey transformation I think Goku would've won.

[Nineteen]

Hmmm, maybe Vegeta vs Goku&everyone in the saiyan saga.
Goku doesn't win against Vegeta but he achieves his goal....but if it hadn't been for the monkey transformation I think Goku would've won.

At the time (before Vegeta sided with Goku and crew on Namek), that'd have been a tactical victory but a strategic defeat for the Earth. Vegeta didn't get his wish, but Tenshinhan, Chiaotzu, Yamcha, Piccolo, God and Shenron got vaped in the process.

[Rocketman]

but if it hadn't been for the monkey transformation I think Goku would've won.

Vegeta was still powerful, while Goku was completely trashed from the Kaioken.

[violadude]

How about Piccolo vs. Kaioshin? I think Piccolo could have put up a pretty good fight against him had he not been so freaked out.

Goku Vs. Majin Vegeta is a pretty good one, although if things got too serious I suppose Goku would have busted out the SSJ3

I forgot how this fight went actually and I dont have my manga with me, so correct me if I'm wrong, but did Mr. Buu seem to be doing pretty well against Pure Buu? or am I just remembering wrong?

Majin Buu Vs. SSJ3 Goku, I know Goku said he could have one if he wanted too but during the actual fight it was kind of unclear who was winning, or who would win in the end.

[Michsi]

Hmmm, maybe Vegeta vs Goku&everyone in the saiyan saga.
Goku doesn't win against Vegeta but he achieves his goal....but if it hadn't been for the monkey transformation I think Goku would've won.

At the time (before Vegeta sided with Goku and crew on Namek), that'd have been a tactical victory but a strategic defeat for the Earth. Vegeta didn't get his wish, but Tenshinhan, Chiaotzu, Yamcha, Piccolo, God and Shenron got vaped in the process.

A victory non the less, but one that goes to the earths fighters rather than to Goku.

Vegeta was still powerful, while Goku was completely trashed from the Kaioken.

I think Vegeta resorted to the monkey transformation because he feared Goku's power. I see Goku winning this simply because he won against Piccolo being just as trashed and Piccolo having more power left in him. Desparation and willpower gets him far.

How about Piccolo vs. Kaioshin? I think Piccolo could have put up a pretty good fight against him had he not been so freaked out.

Despite how much I hate to admit, I always thought it was because the Kaioshin was supposed to be so much stronger than him that gives up and not because of his respect and obligation that came from kami. But at the same time, there is something that doesn't fit here. The saiyans prove to be leagues above the Kaioshin and Piccolo knew the extent of their power. He wouldn't have given up against Vegeta, Goku or Gohan who are a lot stronger than the Kaioshin...

[Bussani]

I think Vegeta resorted to the monkey transformation because he feared Goku's power.

But that power came from the Kaio-ken, which Goku likely couldn't use again after the x4 he pulled off. Even the x3 damaged him, and it took at least that level just to touch Vegeta.

[Michsi]

But that power came from the Kaio-ken, which Goku likely couldn't use again after the x4 he pulled off. Even the x3 damaged him, and it took at least that level just to touch Vegeta.

That's why I said that desperation gets him far. No matter what, I believe he could have gone beyond that. I'm sure of it. He didn't suffer anywhere near the level of damage he did when he defeated Piccolo Daimao and his son at that point.
But never the less, I don't deny that esentially it is Vegeta's victory over Goku even if it doesn't feel like it.

[Nikkolas]

Goku vs. Tien at the 22nd World Tournament.

Goku won dammit! >>

[violadude]

How about Piccolo vs. Kaioshin? I think Piccolo could have put up a pretty good fight against him had he not been so freaked out.

Despite how much I hate to admit, I always thought it was because the Kaioshin was supposed to be so much stronger than him that gives up and not because of his respect and obligation that came from kami. But at the same time, there is something that doesn't fit here. The saiyans prove to be leagues above the Kaioshin and Piccolo knew the extent of their power. He wouldn't have given up against Vegeta, Goku or Gohan who are a lot stronger than the Kaioshin...

Ya something definitely doesn't add up about Kaioshin being leagues above Piccolo considering:

1. The only real straightforward mention of Kaioshin's strength we get (as far as I can remember) is that he could take out Freeza easily, and obviously so could Piccolo by that time.

2. He seemed to be afraid of Dabra, who was supposed to be around Cell's power. This implies Kaioshin is weaker than Cell and I think if Piccolo has been training for all 7 years he should be not quite at Cell's level but close.

3. There's also the fact that Kaioshin seemed to think that Pui Pui was a formidable opponent......whom I think Piccolo could take down easily.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P12.3-4
Goku: “That much, Piccolo?...”
Piccolo: “Yeah…Our dimensions…are too different…”
Kuririn: “Yo-you’re kidding, right? Stop joking around! I-I’ve got to fight him next”
Note: Piccolo’s line is a pretty standard way of saying that someone is stronger than you. You can find a lot of instances of people being described as in “a different dimension” throughout these quotes, like Tenshinhan talking about Super Saiyan Goku, or the narrator describing final form Freeza. In Viz the line is made vaguer (“He is a different order of being”), which makes it sound like Piccolo could just be talking about how Kaioshin is a super-god, rather than about his strength per-say.

[violadude]

I'm aware of what the manga says about what Piccolo thinks of Kaioshin's power. I'm just saying it doesn't add up to me that Kaioshin would be "in another dimension" from Piccolo to me, for the stated reasons.

[Kingdom Heartless]

I'm not entirely convinced that Vegeta could have beaten Goku without transforming. Goku still had the Genki Dama, which he may have been able to pull of thanks to different circumstances.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I'm aware of what the manga says about what Piccolo thinks of Kaioshin's power. I'm just saying it doesn't add up to me that Kaioshin would be "in another dimension" from Piccolo to me, for the stated reasons.

How so? Stronger than Piccolo is still stronger than Freeza, which was still a big thing, since Goku was surprised. And yeah, he was afraid of Dabra, who's around Cell's level. But you can't just assume that Piccolo is automatically near Cell's level after 7 years of training, because we don't know how much he improved, and that's entirely your own opinion. And Kaioshin thought that Pui Pui was a formidable opponent because he was cautious of Bobbodi's opponents. How was he to know how strong Bobbodi's minions could've been?

Chapter: 449 (DBZ 255), P5.2
Kaioshin: "You mustn’t underestimate you opponent! Babidi gathers only strong warriors from everywhere and makes then his allies!"

Remember, Kaioshin was facing an opponent with "fearsome magic" (greater than his father's) whose father had created a monster who'd destroyed hundreds of planets and killed all the Kaioshins but him.

I'm not entirely convinced that Vegeta could have beaten Goku without transforming. Goku still had the Genki Dama, which he may have been able to pull of thanks to different circumstances.

I still think Vegeta could've beaten Goku without transforming. Even when Goku actually gathered the energy for the Genki-Dama against Ozaru Vegeta, he fired a blast before Goku had the chance to throw it and he made him drop it. And I think the same would happen even if Vegeta hadn't transformed.

[SylentEcho]

I think Vegeta resorted to the monkey transformation because he feared Goku's power. I see Goku winning this simply because he won against Piccolo being just as trashed and Piccolo having more power left in him. Desparation and willpower gets him far.

Vegeta transformed just because he didn't know Goku's body was maxed out. Goku on the other hand could have possibly done a few things, but not won. His body was going numb. I feel Vegeta would have won easily if he didn't transform like that.

Goku was slowly wearing out, but Vegeta wasn't. He was just getting his attacks outmaneuvered or countered by Goku which led him to believe that Goku would win unless he attained a higher level of power. He couldn't sense that Goku's body was taking a solid beating and his Ki was probably dropping due to it.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I also don't think Vegeta needed his Oozaru transformation to defeat Goku. While Vegeta's power likely decreased after using his Gyarriku Ho, I doubt it was significant. His Chi only seemed to noticeably drop when he created that fake moon.

And Kaio pretty much says the Genki-Dama is Goku's only chance to win at that point.

[violadude]

I'm aware of what the manga says about what Piccolo thinks of Kaioshin's power. I'm just saying it doesn't add up to me that Kaioshin would be "in another dimension" from Piccolo to me, for the stated reasons.

How so? Stronger than Piccolo is still stronger than Freeza, who was still a big thing, since Goku was surprised. And yeah, he was afraid of Dabra, who's around Cell's level. But you can't just assume that Piccolo is automatically near Cell's level after 7 years of training, because we don't know how much he improved, and that's entirely your own opinion. And Kaioshin thought that Pui Pui was a formidable opponent because he was cautious of Bobbodi's opponents. How was he to know how strong Bobbodi's minions could've been?

Chapter: 449 (DBZ 255), P5.2
Kaioshin: "You mustn’t underestimate you opponent! Babidi gathers only strong warriors from everywhere and makes then his allies!"

Remember, Kaioshin was facing an opponent with "fearsome magic" (greater than his father's) whose father had created a monster who'd destroyed hundreds of planets and killed all the Kaioshins but him.

ok true. I guess I'm just being biased cause I think Kaio-shin is such a putz throughout the whole Buu arc. (minus the tournament stuff).

[dbgtFO]

ok true. I guess I'm just being biased cause I think Kaio-shin is such a putz throughout the whole Buu arc. (minus the tournament stuff).

Well the following point is never actually brought up, so there IS more to it, than it simply being a matter of Kaioshin's strength:

But at the same time, there is something that doesn't fit here. The saiyans prove to be leagues above the Kaioshin and Piccolo knew the extent of their power. He wouldn't have given up against Vegeta, Goku or Gohan who are a lot stronger than the Kaioshin...

Piccolo knew the Saiyans were participating, the Saiyans in Super Saiyan alone are a good chunk above him, he knows one of them has surpassed the Super Saiyan Wall and he STILL wants to participate.

Yet he gives up against Kaioshin, because he's so OMG strong(even though he's weaker than the Saiyans)...

I do agree with Kaioshin being stronger, than Piccolo based on Piccolo's comment(obviously), his fight with Majin Buu, Piccolo not being relevant and the Daizenshuu entry, but at the same time I can't deny, that arguing for the opposite is not as outlandish as it's sometimes made out to be(if the argument is based solely on the manga).

[Rocketman]

I will forever stand by the interpretation that Piccolo backed down out of respect for Supreme Kai's title.

[knight007]

I was so let down that Kaioshin didn't ever seriously fight someone. His character design is pretty cool and unique, and the fact that he is basically the supreme god would kind of got my hopes up. Just like a lot of things about the Buu arc it was a great concept that just didn't really pan out.