Super Saiyan 4 . . . WTF?!

Li'l Lemmy · Post by **Li'l Lemmy** » Sat Oct 15, 2005 10:02 pm

Here's a dumb question: What the hell is SSJ4, and how powerful is it?

Talking About . . .

No, I'm not that out of it. I know "what" SSJ4 is; I've seen Dragonball GT. (Haven't we all?) I know how it can be reached, who reaches it, when and where they reach it, and so on and so forth . . . there's just some things here and there that go over my head when I think about what it's supposed to be and where exactly it falls on the Saiyan scale of power.

I'm not intending to get an uber-specific answer, of course. Questions about power are difficult to pin down without turning it into a list of power levels . . . as in, I'm sure that a number of us may feel bold enough to guess at what the Scouter reading of a SSJ4 might be, but twice as many people wouldn't want to sit through that sort of discussion for the umpteenth time. By no means am I looking for a literal nine-figure reading on Goku's SSJ4 battle power compared to his DBZ SSJ3 battle power compared to his GT chibi SSJ3 battle power compared to what his battle power is when he's on the toilet; I'm merely trying to get a sense of what SSJ4 is and where it goes in what we would percieve as the ideal balance between series . . . you know, the one that doesn't "actually" exist.

I know GT has problems and plot holes that prevent it from being counted as canon. SSJ4 is best described as a Toei plot device. Nonetheless I like GT just fine for what it is and feel the strange need to harmonize this final chapter with the other series where possible . . . in my own mind, at least . . . and lo! thus began my scribblings here, for those who have ever shared the same fruitless quest.

I have a lot of GT on DVD, and look often to the Steve Simmon's translations for reference; there are holes in my collection, though, so there's always a chance there's some useful tidbit on a DVD I don't have.

The Fight on Earth

First, why the need for SSJ4 at all? Had Goku been able to maintain the SSJ3 power-up, was he capable of defeating Vegeta-Baby without it? Well, it's really hard to say. Though I suppose there's no way to know for sure, I'm leaning towards a "no" . . . though that's just a matter of how I interpret the evidence:

During that fight, Goku mentions that the Baby-possessed Vegeta is "more than a match" for him even while at SSJ3, and he goes on to say that he never would have guessed that their combined strength could be so great as to pose such a challenge. And though it's never stated that Goku is fighting at an absolute 100% for that short time, Vegeta-Baby at least seems to be able to hold his own.

What does this have to do with SSJ4? I could be rambling further, but I'm trying to reconcile it with GT's own story before I can even try to place it in the same continuity of DBZ.

For Vegeta-Baby to be on par with Goku's highest form is incredible enough that it should be questioned and explored, even if no completely continuity-satisfying answer is actually given. If Vegeta-Baby (before the Revenge Death Ball power-up) is powerful enough to outclass SSJ3 chibi Goku, then this is the fruit of whose labor? Vegeta's or Baby's?

Theory #1: Can we . . . nay, dare we assume Vegeta reached the third stage somewhere after DBZ and that Baby somehow utilizes that power?

Theory #2: Do we figure that Baby somehow taps into the dormant abilities of a Vegeta who did not reach SSJ3 after all, or . . .

Theory #3: Do we instead say that it's more a fusion of a very strong SSJ2 Vegeta and Baby's own battle power?

On Pital, Baby's battle power alone was not strong enough where he could survive within SSJ Trunks, but he absorbs a little power between Pital and his arrival on Earth and can somehow fight evenly against Goten, Gohan and even Vegeta in that order . . . none of whom I'm convinced felt threatened enough where they felt the need to jump to absolute full power, however. Had they done so, I'm not sure Baby would have succeded in taking anyone's body.

The Fight on Tsufru (sp?)

After Goku overcomes the Oozaru wall and becomes a SSJ4, even the transformed Vegeta-Baby cannot match up. Goku owns the fight right up until Vegeta-Baby is exposed the the Brutz waves.

Since SSJ3 Goku couldn't stand up to Vegeta-Baby, it can be assumed that SSJ4 . . . whether or not it be a Saiyan stage in the traditional sense of 1, 2 or 3 . . . is generally a step up from everything we've seen before, which I suppose would be the point. But just how far up should it go?

I heard an interesting theory once from someone on this board (can't remember whom) which hypothesized that SSJ4 is not more powerful than SSJ3, but instead allows the user to maximize Saiyan battle power without the accompanying energy drain of tranformation . . . sort of in the same vein as Gohan's Mystic power-up, it would seem. This would be very useful in the sense that it almost gives a purpose to SSJ4 other than GT's tranforming for transformation's sake, but I don't have know how much credibility it would have if regular SSJ3 Goku couldn't damage Vegeta-Baby in his semi-base form . . . unless Goku was so hindered by being small that he could barely reach SSJ3.

Another theory I've heard is actually more official, but it confuses the hell out of me. Does the old "times ten" Oozaru power-up still apply to Golden Oozaru Goku . . . or its humanoid counterpart? After this long in the series when everything specific has been whittled down to ungodly levels beyond measure, I'm not about to even guess at Goku's battle power at any stage, let alone whether or not Oozaru is equal to ten times that amount . . . but truthfully, I've never actually understood exactly where the math was supposed to be applied. Is Oozaru ten times the base form, or is it ten times a "maximum," such as Super Saiyan? This could determine where SSJ4 falls on the scale.

"Conclusion," my ass.

I don't know. I went off on a tangent trying to explain what I was looking for, but got lost in my own mess, really . . . hopefully something somewhere in all this makes enough sense where someone has an opinion. Feel free to de-rail any of the supposed "logic" above.

I meant to go into this further. I should really stop trying to write long posts when I know I have to disappear soon . . . like now.

(Li'l Lemmy, suddenly in a rush.)

oponok · Post by **oponok** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 12:58 am

I'm guessing that since the giant ape form is ten times a Saiyan's regular power, then the golden ape is ten (or more...) times the fighter's SSJ form. SSJ4 is probably that same power as the giant golden ape, only consolidated into the smaller form, thus giving more control and speed to the fighter. This would explain why this form has the fur and such: it's a balance between the normal Saiyan form and the giant ape (all the power of the massive, furry alter ego, but the character's typical size and intellect).

As for the Baby Vegeta issue, I believe the strength was mostly due to Vegeta's power, or else Baby wouldn't have needed him, specifically. Maybe Vegeta somehow maximized SSJ2, deciding SSJ3 wastes too much energy? The answer is unknowable, since the series creators were only concerned with Goku and didn't feel like taking any considerable thought to other characters and their battle powers. I suspect Vegeta had quite an impressive battle power in GT, mostly to show us just how powerful later villians were by having them kick his ass before SSJ4 Goku showed up. Recall Vegeta's fight with Omega Shenron, that he took quite a horrendous amount of abuse and kept on truckin'.

Tsukento · Post by **Tsukento** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 2:47 am

I think the most insane thing about Super Saiyan 4 is that it becomes like some kind of normal form of Goku in GT once he's able to transform into that state, yet the amount of power believed to be in that form isn't as great as it's made out to be. We can look at all of Goku's major fights in GT. Bebi, Super #17, and Yi Xing Long. Absolutely neither of those fights required Goku to be in Super Saiyan 4 form to beat them. Goku could've killed Bebi in any form as long as the Kamehame-Ha was strong and fast enough to launch Bebi into the sun while the blast and flames engulfed him. Goku kills both Super #17 and Yi Xing Long in DOWNGRADED forms after being moped up by them even in his Super Saiyan 4 form.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 8:02 am

All I know is that I consider SSJ4 Goku to be around the power of Super Buu or Super Buu2. No higher than that. I've always figured the Golden Oozaru is 10 times stronger than the highest SSJ state reached (3 for Goku and 2 for Vegeta) and that SSJ4 is half the power of the Golden Oozaru.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 8:35 am

I do not understand why it would be cut in half...

For me, it is hard to understand the power level relations because it was not as...thought out, as aforementioned.

But, it clearly packs a lot of power. I don't know how it would relate to Goku's adult form, but compared to all his Kid levels it is a significant power up. It must be stronger than even the "Super Great Ape" because he is around Bebi Vegeta's power still after he transforms.

I would also say it's more powerful than the Super Saiyan Three...even a mastered, controlled Super Saiyan Three. Something Goku never managed outside the afterlife.

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 9:02 am

Little off topic, but GT DOES count in the anime canon continuity, it doesn't fit with the manga obviously, but it should be counted with the anime adaptations of Dragonball and Dragonball Z. While clearly not a perfect series, in my honest opinon, it had the PERFECT ending, an ending that I hope One Piece can get when it finishes. In fact, the ending resolves the prophecy Baba tells way back in the original Dragonball story.

(Note: this is from the dub, though the dub adaptation of OG Dragonball was very faithful, so elet's keep that in mind)

{Baba:} He truly is a powerful miraculous young man, and the entire world will know his name one day.

{Roshi:} What do you know, Baba?

{Baba:} He will be a great hero of his time.

See the trend? The entire world doesn't know his name at the end of Z, but at the end of GT, they do. I think Toei may have remembered that, as far fetched as that seems, and Goku's name was known to all as everyone in the stadium cheered for him when the announcer mentioned Goku Jr. being his decendant. The plot holes presented in GT could actually be interprutated into reasonable events, such as Gohan no longer having the ability to go "Mystic". The guy hadn't trained a lick for 20 years, while Goku made sure to keep training as well as Vegeta, it seems only natural that Gohan's power would of downgraded rapidly to a mere SSJ2.

But enough of that, we all have our own interprutations, I just presented mine and why I feel GT should be counted as ANIME (not manga) continuity.

Chaos Saiyajin · Post by **Chaos Saiyajin** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 9:26 am

I think that SSJ4 should be considered only as the Legendary form. It was stated by Vegeta that the original SSJ could only control his power as an Oozaru, so that means a golden oozaru. It was also said that the original SSJ destroyed himself with his own powers, hinting at the sheer power of the golden oozaru transformation. I think that one who could control the power of the golden oozaru has become the true SSJ.

That's what I think. I consider SSJ4's power to be every ounce of power and energy of the saiyajin brought out to it's highest possible strength. You can clearly see this when Goku and Vegeta are fighting Li Shenlong. After losing the power-up, the two are completly exhausted(well at least Son is) and get thrown around like ragdolls.

On the subject of the other forms of SSJ; I consider SSJ, USSJ, USSJ2, SSJ Full Power, SSJ2, and SSJ3 as any saiyajin tapping in to the raw power hidden within; this is why Vegeta, Gohan, Mirai Trunks, Trunks, Goten, Goku Jr, and Vegeta Jr can all become SSJs.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 9:28 am

I am glad you included the (Not Manga) part, heh.

But just for shigs and giggles...

Yamcha - "Collecting the balls was a lot tougher this time too...he really is a remarkable kid..."

Baba - "More remarkable than you know, for one day he will save this world."

Kuririn - "Huh?! What do you mean by that?!"

Kame-sen'nin - "Goku will save the world...?!"

Baba - "Or something like it...I have the power of prophecy, you know!"

And that was fulfilled by Son Goku defeating the Great Demon King Piccolo. But like you said, this is the anime we speak of. In regard to the lines you cite, that actually does make sense. It did seem kind of funny how Son Goku always avoided becoming well known.

Then again, Toriyama basically created Mr. Satan just to fill in that spot...though he got an okay role...later...

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 10:36 am

I do not understand why it would be cut in half...

Because there's no reason in hell it would stay at full. None.

Little off topic, but GT DOES count in the anime canon continuity

No. It's not part of any continuity. It is it's own spin off series based on, but not continuing, Dragonball.

It was stated by Vegeta that the original SSJ could only control his power as an Oozaru

Uhhh... no it was not stated. That was never said. Ever. What was said was that the last Super Saiya-jin could only maintain his power in the transformed state which is true, since a Super Saiya-jin is a transformation. The anime overlapped the Oozaru since, at that time, that was the only transformed state for the Saiya-jins. It is, however, entirely incorrect.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 10:55 am

And there isn't a good reason why it WOULDN'T stay in full.

I mean, it's more likely that it increased, based on the situation with Bebi Oozaru and all.

Let me explain. Bebi Vegeta was more powerful than Goku even at Super Saiyan 3, because Goku was able to maintain it and fight Bebi in a highly boring, short, repetitive showdown. Bebi was still much stronger, seemingly. When Goku became SS4, however, he was much stronger than Bebi, obviously. When Bebi became Golden Oozaru, he was only a little bit stronger. If Goku only got half the powerup as that, however, he would have been ever weaker against Bebi then he was as a Super Saiyan 3.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 11:02 am

You have bad math. How would being 5 time stronger than SSJ3 be weaker than SSJ3?

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 11:14 am

...let me explain again, since you didn't get it.

Let's say that SS4 made Goku 5x stronger than his SS3 Form and Golden Oozaru made Bebi 10x stronger than the state he was in against SS3 Goku. Based on your theory, that is how it works.

SS3 Goku was weaker than Bebi, he gets 5 times stronger, and is now stronger than Bebi. Bebi gets 10x stronger, and thus would, proportionally, have a bigger advantage than before.

When SS4 Goku and GO Bebi Fought, there were close in power, Goku at a slight disadvantage, so, Goku's multiplier would have had to be greater than Bebi's to make up for the previous gap.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 1:02 pm

I don't know either. I still can't figure out why he went Golden Oozaru instead of regular Oozaru. SSJ4 is simply the result of controling GO. Vegeta was capable of controlling both forms of Oozaru from the get go but he never went SSJ4.

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 1:35 pm

Xyex wrote:No. It's not part of any continuity. It is it's own spin off series based on, but not continuing, Dragonball.

Tell me, where is it stated that GT isn't part of the anime continuity? The anime is an adaptation of the manga, and GT is a part of that adaptation, just like a few of the DBZ movies are. Accept it, I'll agree that GT has no place in the manga continuity, but the anime most definitly as it's done by the same company who did its predacesors.

Dominator · Post by **Dominator** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 2:54 pm

There was a thread a while back, discussing the opinion that Super Saiyan is just an ascension of power (I actually think this is right, five Saiyans that could reach Super Saiyan almost easily, I only think Goku and Vegeta struggled because they had lost their tails, Future Trunks became Super Saiyan thanks to his anger (like with Vegeta and Goku), I forgot how Gohan reached it, but I'm guessing Goten and Trunks reached because... You know, Vegeta and Goku did it as Super Saiyans, well it's the only explanation I can think of).

Super Saiyan 4 does seem like the legendary state, Vegeta only reached it because of his undying jealousy. Plus, Goku was a Golden Oozaru just before the transformation, Vegeta's was "false" because he had the help of the Bruits Waves and had transformed into a normal Oozaru.

Slightly off-topic, but I want to agree with Conan: The ending was good, better than Z's (people wanted Goku back as the main character, and that's what they got for GT) plus it related to Dragon Ball much more than Z ever did.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 3:41 pm

...let me explain again, since you didn't get it.

Let's say that SS4 made Goku 5x stronger than his SS3 Form and Golden Oozaru made Bebi 10x stronger than the state he was in against SS3 Goku. Based on your theory, that is how it works.

SS3 Goku was weaker than Bebi, he gets 5 times stronger, and is now stronger than Bebi. Bebi gets 10x stronger, and thus would, proportionally, have a bigger advantage than before.

When SS4 Goku and GO Bebi Fought, there were close in power, Goku at a slight disadvantage, so, Goku's multiplier would have had to be greater than Bebi's to make up for the previous gap.

I said that Golden Oozaru (of a Saiya-jin) would be a 10x increase. Bebi Vegeta is not pure Saiya-jin and therefor there is no way to measure what his boost is so your entire argument is void.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 4:16 pm

What are we arguing over? Your foundless idea the SS4 isn't as powerful as "Golden Oozaru". Can you explain it, give some reasoning and idea's as to why? I provided many reasons and all of that, can't you?

Maybe I should call your argument void, for not having any backing.

Chaos Saiyajin · Post by **Chaos Saiyajin** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 4:39 pm

In my opinion, Golden Oozaru and SSJ4 shoud have the same strength. If SSJ4 is just the saiyajin controlling the power of Golden Oozaru (like stated above) there should be no increase or decrease in power.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 4:49 pm

Duo wrote:What are we arguing over? Your foundless idea the SS4 isn't as powerful as "Golden Oozaru". Can you explain it, give some reasoning and idea's as to why? I provided many reasons and all of that, can't you?

Maybe I should call your argument void, for not having any backing.

First of all, regular Oozaru makes you 10x more powerful, not Golden Oozaru. Since the Earth is a planet with plantlife all over it, it makes more sense that it would absorb more sunlight than reflect it like a moon would, which would mean less than 17 million Brutz waves. Golden Oozaru could simply be an inferior form of regular Oozaru.

Added to that, SSJ4 strongly resembles simple mass-reduction, not strength increase. If USSJ significantly slows you down because of added bulk, I'm assuming being bigger than a skyscraper will do the same thing. SSJ4 is probably simply faster than Oozaru.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 4:59 pm

They were already Super Saiyan, that's why I went for the 10x increase.

It can't make sense for SS4 to be less powerful, look at the Bebi vs. Goku battle. They were near matched in POWER. Not speed, not intellect, not at chess, POWER.

That power discrepancy got made up for somewhere.

And does everyone even know what causes the Great Ape transformation in the first place?

Kanzenshuu

Super Saiyan 4 . . . WTF?!

Super Saiyan 4 . . . WTF?!

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