Kid Goku vs Adult Goku as "The Hero"

[Nikkolas]

Kinda inspired by the Cell Arc topic where Gohan's flaws were beinc ontrasted against his father's when it came to their role as "hero of the story."

Like many people I stumbled upon Dragonball when I watched Z a long time ago. Years later I would watch Dragonball and be amazed at how I actually liked Goku in this version. I think a lot of it has to do with differing tones. Stuff like the Cell Saga are so deadly serious that grievous flaws in character can't be played for laughs. They are things that we are supposed to react to negatively.

For instance, Goku's stupidity/naivety. This is a charming and endearing point in the light-hearted Dragonball. Even when things get dark Goku remains his same old good, dopey self as he defeats pure evil.

However as he grew older and the series grew more serious, Goku didn't seem to grow at all. Well, I guess that's not completely true His younger self's interest in fighting strong opponents had morphed into a full blown obsession. He'd put the fate of billions at stake because of his thirst for combat.

As a result I just really can't respect adult Goku as any sort of hero. I think his younger, actually innocent appearance was much more ture to that title.

What do others here think?

[roidrage]

Goku's a man-child. Isn't fair to criticize him for staying true to character throughout the series. Lots of people on here criticize that, but I think it's more their perception than an all-out flaw.

What's actually saddening though is that since Goku never changes, he obviously never matures. He doesn't love Chi-Chi, because he has no concept of romantic love. He's a terrible father, because he doesn't have much of a childhood to draw on for experience, and he doesn't understand children or what it means to raise them.

[CatouttaHell]

I like Chibi Son Goku far more than Adult Son Goku personally. I'll admit I was a DBZ fan from the old days of Toonami and it actually took me years until I found out Dragonball existed. But after having read and seen Dragonball I gained a much, much greater appreciation of the series. Chibi Son Goku was far more entertaining for me than His adult form, I liked it when He was a unique, and amazing character. I know I'm pretty much the only person who thinks this but that whole Saiya-jin bullcrap really hurt his character. He was introduced as some amazing little boy with a tail, insane strength, an ape form, and a bizarre, never-changing hairstyle. But as the series started getting more "serious" Toriyama decided this needed to be explained and suddenly there's a race of human-like beings who have almost all of Son Goku's unique traits. His character got worse and worse as Z went on too. He was continually leaving the fate of the universe in the hands of incompetent fools like Gotenks and Son Gohan, left his family to train Chibi Boo's reincarnation, etc. And throughout the entire Boo Arc up until Chibi Boo he, along with Piccolo and Vegeta, were bizarrely out of character IMO.

[Piccolo Daimao]

As Cipher said in a thread a while ago, Goku's love for battle was treated as endearing, but as the series progressed, it ended up becoming a full-blown character flaw that often ended up blatantly putting his own addiction over the fate of the Earth and its inhabitants. And CatouttaHell, you're definitely not the only one who thinks that the "Saiyan bullcrap" hurt his character.

Back in pre-Z, you can get away with calling him a hero (well, by the Piccolo Daimao arc, since before then, there weren't really any serious threats to Earth). He'd had all limbs broken but one, and still mustered up enough energy to propel himself towards the Great Demon King and kill him by tearing a hole through his body. In Z, he fucks around by literally ignoring a chance to stop a threat to the Earth three years beforehand, leaves the fate of the universe in the hands of an incompetent kid who doesn't even like fighting, deliberately holds back against a near-immortal bubblegum monster who was so dangerous he forced the highest gods in existence to come down from the heavens to defeat him, once again leaves the fate of the universe in the hands of two incompetent, even younger cocky-ass kids and then flies off to train some reincarnation of Boo who's both a Namu and Gohan clone and we're supposed to accept this kid is going to be the next hero of Earth?

[CatouttaHell]

As Cipher said in a thread a while ago, Goku's love for battle was treated as endearing, but as the series progressed, it ended up becoming a full-blown character flaw that often ended up blatantly putting his own addiction over the fate of the Earth and its inhabitants. And CatouttaHell, you're definitely not the only one who thinks that the "Saiyan bullcrap" hurt his character.

Back in pre-Z, you can get away with calling him a hero (well, by the Piccolo Daimao arc, since before then, there weren't really any serious threats to Earth). He'd had all limbs broken but one, and still mustered up enough energy to propel himself towards the Great Demon King and kill him by tearing a hole through his body. In Z, he fucks around by literally ignoring a chance to stop a threat to the Earth three years beforehand, leaves the fate of the universe in the hands of an incompetent kid who doesn't even like fighting, deliberately holds back against a near-immortal bubblegum monster who was so dangerous he forced the highest gods in existence to come down from the heavens to defeat him, once again leaves the fate of the universe in the hands of two incompetent, even younger cocky-ass kids and then flies off to train some reincarnation of Boo who's both a Namu and Gohan clone and we're supposed to accept this kid is going to be the next hero of Earth?

Emperor Pilaf and the Red Ribbon Army were pretty serious threats IMO. Sure they don't come close to galaxy-destroying, god-killing, near-immortal bubblegum monsters but Pilaf came very close to taking over the world with the dragon balls. And the Red Ribbon Army had some of the most powerful humans on Earth possibly (Black, Blue, Murasaki, etc) and due to all of their resources even the authorities couldn't do shit against them. If Son didn't take them down they'd no doubt take over the world, dragon balls or not.

I agree completely with every bit of your analysis of his character development. It's hard to believe the same guy who managed to defeat Piccolo Daimao twice over despite being in a completely hopeless situation both times went on to become such an idiot. Son Gohan and Gotenks are incompetent idiots for sure, but them having to step up to protect the world could've been avoided if He just defeated Fat Boo when He had the chance. The Oob thing was just pure stupidity. It's like Toriyama just decided that an arc can't end if Son doesn't die or run off somewhere from everyone else and just pulled a reason out of his arse. Roshi stepped down because he saw Son Goku, Tenshinhan, etc had surpassed him and would go on to become great, competent warriors. Goku, Tenshinhan, and co decided themselves what path they'd take. Meanwhile Son Goku just picks any random idiot kid who has strength and declares that they'll take His place as the protector of the world. Whether or not they're even remotely competent or even WANT to fight.

[Michsi]

What's actually saddening though is that since Goku never changes, he obviously never matures. He doesn't love Chi-Chi, because he has no concept of romantic love. He's a terrible father, because he doesn't have much of a childhood to draw on for experience, and he doesn't understand children or what it means to raise them

Actually if one looks close enough, you can see that Goku changes quite a lot.

As a kid, Goku was pretty wild and ruthless with his opponents. He was an uncomplicatd character with an uncomplicated, black and white mind set regarding good and bad. He showed no mercy towards "bad guys" and had no remorse what so ever about killing them.
This trait dissapears almost completely once he grows up and he becomes a more gentle person, ironically though, around the same time his love for battle becomes more preeminent, something which often makes him look selfish.
The way I see it , kid Goku would have never felt remorse for killing Freeza, nor tried to spare the Ginyu force, yet we clearly see him being bothered by their death as an adult.

Often times I find Goku hard to figure out and his "growth" as a character isn't easy to describe mostly because it doesn't really feel like it was appropriatly thought trough by the author. In other words, it just happened. There where times where he took me by surprise with things that I could have previously sworn he wouldn't have done or understood. Take for instance how he imediatley assumed Gohan was dating when he sees him with Videl. While it stands to reason that after 2 kids he'd at least have basic knowledge about how boys and girls work, it still somehow seemed a bit strange to see him pick up on that so fast and comment on it, even though they were not actually dating

While he essentially remains the same social awkward simple minded goofball, there is no way one can deny that even by the beginning of the Buu saga he had matured greatly compared to even his persona in the Saiyan Saga.
He beginns to develope a sixth sense regarding certain things and often times seems to know and understand more than he lets on which actually makes his outward appearance a bit unsettling

[SylentEcho]

I feel Kid Goku was a lot better as a hero than Adult Goku because as Michsi states, he looked at things very plainly. He saw good as good and evil as evil. He would have killed Vegeta. If he didn't, then on Namek, wouldn't give him the senzu bean either. He wouldn't just keep villains alive for sport.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Emperor Pilaf and the Red Ribbon Army were pretty serious threats IMO. Sure they don't come close to galaxy-destroying, god-killing, near-immortal bubblegum monsters but Pilaf came very close to taking over the world with the dragon balls. And the Red Ribbon Army had some of the most powerful humans on Earth possibly (Black, Blue, Murasaki, etc) and due to all of their resources even the authorities couldn't do shit against them. If Son didn't take them down they'd no doubt take over the world, dragon balls or not.

Well, whatever. That's not the point. What I'm saying is, Piccolo Daimao marked a significant change in the tone of DB, to the point where he was a really serious threat to the Earth and actually did much more damage than gag villain Pilaf (whose conquest for the world was foiled firstly by Pilaf, and secondly they didn't even come close) and the Red Ribbon Army. Neither Pilaf nor the Red Ribbon Army were nearly as dangerous as Piccolo Daimao.

[CatouttaHell]

Well, whatever. That's not the point. What I'm saying is, Piccolo Daimao marked a significant change in the tone of DB, to the point where he was a really serious threat to the Earth and actually did much more damage than gag villain Pilaf (whose conquest for the world was foiled firstly by Pilaf, and secondly they didn't even come close) and the Red Ribbon Army. Neither Pilaf nor the Red Ribbon Army were nearly as dangerous as Piccolo Daimao.

Yeah, true. I was just saying. I liked the Piccolo Daimao Arc but the whole serious tone just got worse and worse as the series went on. At least back then death actually MEANT something. By the Freeza Arc it was like "eh, who cares?" and by the Cell and Boo Arcs it was like "lol, so?"

Son Goku becoming a Saiya-jin was the beginning of the series becoming progressively dumber IMO. Toriyama deciding he needed to explain Son's unique traits by HE'S AN ALIEN LOL was kind of annoying to me and like you said before it paved the way for His annoying character flaws. I don't see why it had to be explained with "He's an alien" as opposed to just "He's a really weird boy" or something. It's as stupid as the Daizenshuu declaring Tenshinhan is an alien because he has freaky techniques and a third eye to me personally. What's next, Buruma was actually adopted by Dr. Briefs and is in reality part of a race of genius aliens with purple hair? In a bizarre Earth like DBZ's where you have tons of insanely strong guys, animal people, dinosaurs, whatever Pilaf is, people who have been alive for hundreds of years, an immortal deity cat, etc there's just no need to explain weird characters by claiming they came from outer space IMO.

[Mitsuomi]

Even though I'm more of a "z fan" I really do prefer younger Goku as the protagonist. With Goku becoming a Saiya-jin he suddenly became a advocate for sparing everyone. The fact that he would try to change someone like Freeza to me is just incredibly stupid to me. Kid Goku showed no mercy to those who were endangering his friends and would happily kill them. Another thing that annoyed me about Adult Son Goku was the fact that he was too obsessed with sparing a life in hope to one day fight them again. Also the fact that he would happily abandon his family made me not accept some of his actions. The fact that Son also didn't go all out to kill Fat Boo was something that peeved me as well, surely killing him off right away would be better than letting things pan out with Gotenks.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Well, whatever. That's not the point. What I'm saying is, Piccolo Daimao marked a significant change in the tone of DB, to the point where he was a really serious threat to the Earth and actually did much more damage than gag villain Pilaf (whose conquest for the world was foiled firstly by Pilaf, and secondly they didn't even come close) and the Red Ribbon Army. Neither Pilaf nor the Red Ribbon Army were nearly as dangerous as Piccolo Daimao.

Yeah, true. I was just saying. I liked the Piccolo Daimao Arc but the whole serious tone just got worse and worse as the series went on. At least back then death actually MEANT something. By the Freeza Arc it was like "eh, who cares?" and by the Cell and Boo Arcs it was like "lol, so?"

Son Goku becoming a Saiya-jin was the beginning of the series becoming progressively dumber IMO. Toriyama deciding he needed to explain Son's unique traits by HE'S AN ALIEN LOL was kind of annoying to me and like you said before it paved the way for His annoying character flaws. I don't see why it had to be explained with "He's an alien" as opposed to just "He's a really weird boy" or something. It's as stupid as the Daizenshuu declaring Tenshinhan is an alien because he has freaky techniques and a third eye to me personally. What's next, Buruma was actually adopted by Dr. Briefs and is in reality part of a race of genius aliens with purple hair? In a bizarre Earth like DBZ's where you have tons of insanely strong guys, animal people, dinosaurs, whatever Pilaf is, people who have been alive for hundreds of years, an immortal deity cat, etc there's just no need to explain weird characters by claiming they came from outer space IMO.

Yeah, I agree. In the Boo arc, it's pretty much just a case of, "Yeah, we won't take the main villain seriously. If people die, we can just bring 'em back with the Dragon Balls."

But I guess, as the series became more serious and took a more sci-fi-oriented tone, there apparently needed to be an explanation as to why Goku had a monkey's tail and could transform into a giant monkey. And I'm also against the Daizenshuu claiming Tenshinhan was an alien, because I thought it was enough just having the explanation that Tenshinhan was a gifted martial artist. It's not as if the rest of Earth's population are weirdos too.

[CatouttaHell]

Yeah, I agree. In the Boo arc, it's pretty much just a case of, "Yeah, we won't take the main villain seriously. If people die, we can just bring 'em back with the Dragon Balls."

But I guess, as the series became more serious and took a more sci-fi-oriented tone, there apparently needed to be an explanation as to why Goku had a monkey's tail and could transform into a giant monkey. And I'm also against the Daizenshuu claiming Tenshinhan was an alien, because I thought it was enough just having the explanation that Tenshinhan was a gifted martial artist. It's not as if the rest of Earth's population are weirdos too.

Yeah nobody even gives a fuck by the Boo Arc. Son lets Fat Boo run wild over the Earth and Piccolo tells Shin Boo to go and kill the Earth's population to buy time for Gotenks. GT gets a lot of hate but at the very least it was great to see the Dragon Balls finally turn on the protagonists due to all of the overuse IMO.

I liked the explanation that Son Goku was just a very weird, talented kid based on the Monkey King from Journey to the West more than the OH IT TURNS OUT HE'S ACTUALLY AN ALIEN THAT HIT HIS HEAD explanation personally. Tenshinhan's alien origins thing was even dumber than that. There's just no need to explain away any weirdness with stuff like that in a series where you have Pilaf, animal people, etc running around without anybody batting an eye.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

I liked the explanation that Son Goku was just a very weird, talented kid based on the Monkey King from Journey to the West more than the OH IT TURNS OUT HE'S ACTUALLY AN ALIEN THAT HIT HIS HEAD explanation personally. Tenshinhan's alien origins thing was even dumber than that. There's just no need to explain away any weirdness with stuff like that in a series where you have Pilaf, animal people, etc running around without anybody batting an eye.

More agreement here; the moment Goku's ability has a biological basis is the moment you start overanalyzing, which is exactly what the Sayain saga was. Frankly, it's more reason for the series to have ended with Freeza; in that scenario Goku gets to fight someone with his own natural combat abilities, removing the "It's Goku" advantage, and then basically absolute evil, both being thrashed about by it as he never has been before, and then briefly getting lost in ultimate power before finally ending him. By the Cell arc, he's basically overdeveloped.

[Silver Sinspawn]

I like Chibi Son Goku far more than Adult Son Goku personally. I'll admit I was a DBZ fan from the old days of Toonami and it actually took me years until I found out Dragonball existed.

^This.
I mean, a lot of people DO get into the franchise through Toonami airing DBZ. I know the majority of my friends in New Zealand did.