[Dragon Ball GT] Was Goku Becoming A Kid A Good or Bad Idea?

[Rocketman]

Same deal with most of GT - good/interesting idea, piss-poor execution.

Well a lot of people think that everybody maxed out by the Cell Games for some reason. Doesn't make much sense to me. Goku's been getting ridiculously huge increases for the whole series.

Because he hadn't maxed out yet. After the Cell Games, training doesn't matter. Goku and Vegeta only get stronger because they unlock SS2 (and 3 in Goku's case). Super Saiyan 1 is no longer important because it hit its limit against Cell. Base hit its limit against Freeza.

[CatouttaHell]

Because he hadn't maxed out yet. After the Cell Games, training doesn't matter. Goku and Vegeta only get stronger because they unlock SS2 (and 3 in Goku's case). Super Saiyan 1 is no longer important because it hit its limit against Cell. Base hit its limit against Freeza.

Base Saiya-jins are heavily implied to be >> Piccolo in the Boo Arc so it's doubtful that they hit their limits in the Freeza Arc. Vegeta claimed they hit their limits back in the Jinzoningen Arc and yet everyone knows that's false. There's no such thing as permanent limits in this series IMO. Some characters like Piccolo and Vegeta slow down and start progressing at a snails pace but others like Goku and Goten continue getting crazy increases well into GT IMO. Vegeta and Piccolo may have begun to max out in the Boo Arc if there ARE limits though. In GT Base Goku >> SSjin 2 Vegeta is heavily implied so maybe he did hit his limits.

[Cipher]

In GT Base Goku >> SSjin 2 Vegeta is heavily implied so maybe he did hit his limits.

I've watched most of GT multiple times. I have never once thought that this is even remotely implied. Could you please point me toward whatever scene does this?

On topic, I love Goku being a kid in GT. Without it, the final scene with Kuririn wouldn't work. And everyone loves the final scene with Kuririn. If you don't, you should.

[CatouttaHell]

I've watched most of GT multiple times. I have never once thought that this is even remotely implied. Could you please point me toward whatever scene does this?

On topic, I love Goku being a kid in GT. Without it, the final scene with Kuririn wouldn't work. And everyone loves the final scene with Kuririn. If you don't, you should.

Vegeta has trouble with Bebi Gohan and Bebi Goten in what is arguably his SSjin 2 form while Goku handles both of them easily in His base form.

[Cipher]

Vegeta has trouble with Bebi Gohan and Bebi Goten in what is arguably his SSjin 2 form while Goku handles both of them easily in His base form.

That's actually a much more reasonable response than anything I was expecting. Still, Goku fights them both in base form, while Vegeta fights them as Super Saiyans. They're also just a warm-up for Baby-possessed Vegeta, who arrives moments later.

So while it's kind of badly handled, I'm still not sure it "heavily implies" anything.

[CatouttaHell]

That's actually a much more reasonable response than anything I was expecting. Still, Goku fights them both in base form, while Vegeta fights them as Super Saiyans. They're also just a warm-up for Baby-possessed Vegeta, who arrives moments later.

So while it's kind of badly handled, I'm still not sure it "heavily implies" anything.

They were in Super Saiya-jin form against Goku too actually. He blows them out of SSjin form and they're about to try to continue fighting in base but are interrupted by Vegeta's arrival.

[SSJ YUSUKE]

Even though I hate almost everything about GT I can't help but feel that in the first saga when they were looking for the dragon balls kid Goku was perfect for the role. I just can't picture adult Goku in that role, but afterwards they just stretched it.

[rereboy]

Base Saiya-jins are heavily implied to be >> Piccolo in the Boo Arc so it's doubtful that they hit their limits in the Freeza Arc.

Huh...? There is nothing in the Buu saga that suggests that...

Piccolo seems to be just like he was in the Cell saga. Stronger than the base saiyans but weaker than the FPSSJs Saiyans.

He is even implied to be stronger than SSJ Trunks and SSJ Goten since Buu assumed his clothes instead of Goten's or Trunks' clothes when their fusion ran out.

On topic:

It was a semi-interesting idea...

I don't like it very much because it just seems to be a way to negate much of Goku's evolution as time went be in the previous series and also a cheap and lame way to have a 60 year old hero being the hero without being old...

Also, Toei's justification of why they did it is very lame... They said it was because Goku was too powerful, but they made Goku pretty much as powerful as he was as an adult... They just made him have trouble with using SSJ3 and teleportation while they made his base form as strong or stronger than a Buu... Lame...

In short, the idea wasn't that good (at all) and the execution was way worse than that.

[CatouttaHell]

He is even implied to be stronger than SSJ Trunks and SSJ Goten since Buu assumed his clothes instead of Goten's or Trunks' clothes when their fusion ran out.

They were in base inside Boo and were heavily drained from being a SSjin 3 fusion. That only suggests Piccolo > Heavily Drained Kids. And there's nothing that confirms that Boo takes after whoever is the strongest inside him. Fat Boo took after Dai Kaioshin despite South Kaioshin being the strongest. He likely takes after who has more of an impact on him, and Piccolo had more of an impact on Booccolo due to his intelligence, while Goten and Trunks were useless to him unfused.

[rereboy]

Sure, whatever, question everything about how the absorptions work and whatever but I still don't get how you think Piccolo is weaker than the base saiyans.

[CatouttaHell]

• Son Gohan comes up with the idea of nobody turning SSjin at the Tenkaichi Budokai, Vegeta agrees and neither of them even consider Piccolo could be a problem.
  Babidi and Dabra have no idea the Saiya-jins can transform but decide Son Goku, Vegeta, and Son Gohan >>> Piccolo
  Kaioshin is stated to be far stronger than Piccolo, he is scared of Yakon and says they should all team up against him. Base Goku >> Yakon.

[Kaboom]

Not a thread for tired and pointless old power-related debates. Keep it on-topic, please.

[rereboy]

• Son Gohan comes up with the idea of nobody turning SSjin at the Tenkaichi Budokai, Vegeta agrees and neither of them even consider Piccolo could be a problem.
  Babidi and Dabra have no idea the Saiya-jins can transform but decide Son Goku, Vegeta, and Son Gohan >>> Piccolo
  Kaioshin is stated to be far stronger than Piccolo, he is scared of Yakon and says they should all team up against him. Base Goku >> Yakon.

Your first idea is the only real argument in the Buu saga for Piccolo to be weaker than their base. However, the reasons for why Gohan suggests fighting as base is simply to avoid the journalists who would recognize them from the Cell tournament. Only Vegeta states that he will still have the upper hand even in his base. Personally I view it simply as arrogance on Vegeta's side and also because he only seems to think about Goku or Gohan in Goku's absence. Also, I'm not sure if Vegeta was aware that Piccolo would participate in the tournament since Piccolo wasn't on the plane with them and I don't know if Gohan bothered to tell him that Piccolo would also be joining.

Your second idea is no argument at all because at that moment they were all suppressing their power. So, it would be impossible, just by sensing Ki, to know who was the strongest among them, even if one could still feel their Ki. Dabra must have some kind of instinct to determine who is the strongest among a group other than Ki sensing. Otherwise, it would be impossible for him to know who were the strongest among them, which negates the argument that such an action can prove that the saiyans at their base in that moment had more Ki than Piccolo.

Your third idea is also not a real argument because Kaioshin was very, very afraid of anything that had to do with Babidi and Buu and also because he had no idea how strong Goku and Vegeta were. He had an idea of what Gohan was capable of since he saw him power up in the tournament, but he never saw Goku or Vegeta fight or power up, so he had no idea how strong they were. Add to that his fear of Babidi and Buu and everything that has to do with them after being forced to enter Babidi's trap in his ship, and of course that he is going to be nervous and suggest the safest course of action: team up.
But he then quickly realizes just how strong they are and he is very, very impressed. And even then, he only becomes really impressed when they start talking about how Dabra isn't much and when Goku also turns SSJ2 to make Yakon explode, which are levels of power that already surpass him and Piccolo.

Not a thread for tired and pointless old power-related debates. Keep it on-topic, please.

Ah, you are right. My bad. I don't want to ruin this topic. Sorry.

I think some of the key differences are that in Z, we were privy to the extent of Goku's progression: healing boosts, new transformations, training under gods, etc. In the 5 year span of time that leads up to the first episode of GT, he's only had Oob to train with. The human whose power he wanted to draw out for an all-out rematch. In no way does does that constitute him surpassing "everyone in Z."

I also agree with this. Such progress feels very "unexplained".

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

Last I check, reclaiming the old magic was exactly the point of turning him into a kid, to be accompanied by another Dragonball search. The problem being, as we see from power level debates of any sort coming up, is that the only thing Goku seems to lose from the shrinking is Super Sayain 3 time, which never gave me the feeling that the crew was ever in any huge danger until SSJ4 was needed. The fact that Goku can go Super Sayain should be all you need to juggle a power drop to make things interesting while not completely nerfing him. Heck, if Rildo wasn't declared stronger than Buu (Which completely throws out the believability of the villain power progression already), they probably would have had that.

Then, of course, you have the latter two arcs of GT and SSJ4 taking on a Z dimension and the whole thing becomes a nuisance, but I doubt GT was really written that far ahead for anyone to see it.

The return of the Kid Goku jokes were welcome, though. They got that much right.

[GamingBuddha]

I think some of the key differences are that in Z, we were privy to the extent of Goku's progression: healing boosts, new transformations, training under gods, etc. In the 5 year span of time that leads up to the first episode of GT, he's only had Oob to train with. The human whose power he wanted to draw out for an all-out rematch. In no way does does that constitute him surpassing "everyone in Z."

Goku also gained a tremendous amount of power while training with Gohan in the ROSAT, whose power he was trying to draw out. Also, it's implied that nobody else trained extensively other than Vegeta (and maybe Piccolo). That's how I justify him being so much stronger than everyone else in GT.

[Savage68]

Goku also gained a tremendous amount of power while training with Gohan in the ROSAT, whose power he was trying to draw out.

That's not really even remotely comparable to the explanation that through training with the human Oob, Goku became powerful enough to surpass Super Saiyan 2s in his normal form. It just doesn't have to be that way and I don't know why people are so adamant about it.

[Rad Raddish]

He should have become an old man.

[Pokewhiz7]

That was going to happen eventually anyway.