The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Bussani]

I'm...not even sure I should dare to mention this idea after the argument it created last time, but I wonder if it makes a difference that Cell had his feet planted firmly on the ground when #16 punched him. The Super Exciting Guide Story Volume says that Goku's weight training in heaven worked well because using bukujutsu while weighted was much harder than being on the ground, and as we see, it only takes about 40 tons to start making it difficult for base Goku to even stay aloft. It could be that blasting someone using bukujutsu out of the air isn't as hard as sending them flying when they have good footing, just like lifting a ton while flying is probably harder than doing so when you have your feet on something solid.

That's just an idea, of course. I wouldn't be surprised if a Shin Kikoho from the front also sent Cell flying.

[In Brightest Day]

Eh. While I see what Kaboom is saying, Semi-Cell's power basically crapped on everyone else that had appeared in the series at that stage, including his Imperfect form and #16 (who in turn crapped on Piccolo and the Androids, who in turn crapped on the Super Saiyans, who in turn crapped on Frieza and so on and so forth). IMO, if Tien can fire off a Ki-Ko-Ho before #18 plants his face into the dirt, then the Android gets squished like a bug. Too big, too powerful.

With that said, I am a firm believer that the three main human Z-Fighters all made it to the low millions by the Android arc. That includes Yamcha, who I'm not sure why gets so much criticism for being a 'weakling'. Regardless of whether or not he was as strong as those two, he was always at least in the same realm of power (and was > Kuririn at the 22nd Budokai, IMHO).


Edit: The whole humans making it to the low millions thing isn't something I try to press on people, as we've all seen that debate a hundred times. It's just the way you interpret the Manga, really.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

With that said, I am a firm believer that the three main human Z-Fighters all made it to the low millions by the Android arc.

I'm pretty much in this camp as well. I like to think that the humans at least stayed sort of relevant to the story by being comparable to the base powers of the Saiyans, at least those in the last arc. Ten and Goku were equal at the 22nd Budokai, and then afterward Ten always seemed to at least come close to catching up to whatever Goku's power was in the last part of the story. So if Goku's base is 3,000,000 against Freeza, then by the Jinzoningen I'd put Tenshinhan around 1,500,000. BIG THEORETICAL IF BECAUSE IT IS ONLY FOR EXAMPLE DISCLAIMER lol, if Goku's base was around 50,000,000 against Buu (max at SS3 would then be 20,000,000,000), then I'd put Tenshinhan around 25,000,000. It still leaves the earthlings fairly weak, but not that useless.

Also, for people who may potentially wonder, no, I don't believe Piccolo is weaker than the base Saiyans in the Buu Arc.

[SuperForteX]

The Kikoho is classified as a heavily focused and concentrated Kiai-type attack, which means it focuses primarily on having a lot of directed "pushing" power

I completly disagree with this, based on the actual story. When first introduced, the Kikoho is described by all involved as a "forbidden martial arts techinique" because it's so powerful and dangerous. Trying to paint it in a light where it's just "really good at pushing people" seems to be a huge stretch to me, regardless of what the Daizenshuu may or may not say on the subject. In any case, we see Vegetto disintigrate part of Buu's body with a Kiai, Freeza blow up part of a mountain with one, etc. They seem to do a lot more than just push.

even if Tenshinhan himself is far weaker than his opponent, and even if the amplified power of the Kikoho itself is as well, then they might still be affected by all that "pushing" force, even if the attack doesn't injure them. Just like what happened with Cell.

Cell was injured. He was drawn all bruised and burnt up when he rose out of that crater. Smoke was rising from his body, too, wasn't it? A simple "pushing" manuver won't do all that. The kikoho moved Cell because it was powerful. It hit him with explosive force, and he couldn't resist that force. We're not talking about something that suddenly knocked him momentarily off balance, either. We're talking about a force that consistently held him down as long as Tenshinhan continued firing it, while Cell was actively trying to get out of it. (We see Cell attempting to fly back up, and get knocked right back down again)

I like to think of using the Kikoho as something like swinging around a big foam baseball bat.

Then the great "forbidden martial arts technique" that "makes the Kamehameha look like dog food" in terms of destructive power, is a "big foam" bat. There's no way I'll agree with this.

So yes, Tenshinhan's Kikoho did have more blunt force behind it than Android 16's punch. But that's due to the nature of the attack itself, and not necessarily Tenshninhan's own Ki level / Battle Power.

If you agree that it has more blunt force than No. 16's punch, then you should also have to agree that it can also cause more damage than No. 16's punches could. In other words, an opponent who is outclassed by No. 16 and would be defeated by his attacks, would very quickly succumb to the power of the Shin Kikoho.

[Bussani]

They seem to do a lot more than just push.

I don't think so. You can blow up anything with a big enough "push". Not that I'm agreeing that Kikoho is just a "big foam bat"...though to be honest, every attack is a big foam bat if you're strong enough.

[Kaboom]

When I made that comparison, it was clearly in the context of when Tenshinhan uses it on enemies far stronger than himself. In such cases, they can tank the harmful, "typical Ki blast" effects of the attack just fine, but are still heavily affected by the "push." Cell was greatly inhibited by the attack's raw pushing force, but ultimately escaped with nothing but a few buffs and scratches which disappeared rather quickly, and don't even necessarily mean someone's taken damage anyway.

Obviously if Tenshinhan were to use the Kikoho on someone more on or only moderately above his level, then it would almost assuredly be a massively destructive instant-kill. But even Nappa, who was "only" about 2-3 times as powerful as Tenshinhan, tanked a Kikoho with no lasting damage.

Look, I'm not trying to downplay Tenshinhan or the Kikoho. He's a tough dude, with one really badass attack. But I all too often keep seeing the latter treated as some sort of unbeatable miracle-move that can smoke people hundreds of times more powerful than its user, when it, well, isn't.

The Kikoho is a Kiai-type attack. That means it's a "ki shock-wave." A big, super-focused, invisible, gnarly shock-wave. It gets its destructive power from just slamming a whole lot of Ki against you all at once. But if you're too much stronger than Tenshinhan, then it won't hurt you. However, the sheer blunt force of the attack can evidently still do some very useful things like hold an enemy down or cancel out other attacks.

[SuperForteX]

Ok, but this raises a few questions. First off, Nappa didn't seem to be pushed. He more or less 'floated his air' (a variation of 'stood his ground') when the kikoho hit him and exploded on impact; and Nappa seemed to stay in place, in the same position and pose, which was revealed when the smoke cleared. So where was this supposed pushing power then? I think we both agree that the difference in power between Tenshinhan and Nappa was infinitesimally smaller than between Tenshinhan and Cell.

Next qustion is, is Shin Kikoho not a different technique than Kikoho? Doesn't Tenshinhan cry out "Shin Kikoho" when he launches his assault at Cell? This should be a different technique altogether from Kikoho... something the likes of which we hadn't seen so far. It's his new trump card that he developed in the three years of training for the cyborgs, or possibly over at Kaio's place, right?

Anyway, I will now argue that a punch should also have the power to push. When Android 16 punched Cell in the face, his fist should have physically pushed Cell's face back, by making him crane his neck. That's what happens in real life when someone gets punched. But Cell resisted this pushing ability with his strength. Presumably his ki was high enough to just shield him, or the muscle in his neck strong enough to prevent the movement. Either way you look at it, No. 16 just didn't have enough "oomph" behind his attack to move Cell.

Tenshinhan's attack pushed Cell's whole body downward, and as Cell tried to fly up against it, he couldn't. So basically all of Cell's strength is being poured out in his ki as he tries to Bukujitsu out of the attack, but the power output Tenshinhan is giving off indeed seems to surpass the ki output that Cell's Bukujitsu is giving off.

In those terms, can you at least see what I'm getting at? Something strong enough to resist the ki output of Cell's Bukujitsu should be strong enough to kill someone at Cyborg 18's level.

[Kaboom]

Ok, but this raises a few questions. First off, Nappa didn't seem to be pushed. He more or less 'floated his air' (a variation of 'stood his ground') when the kikoho hit him and exploded on impact; and Nappa seemed to stay in place, in the same position and pose, which was revealed when the smoke cleared. So where was this supposed pushing power then? I think we both agree that the difference in power between Tenshinhan and Nappa was infinitesimally smaller than between Tenshinhan and Cell.

Well, granted, this was a one-handed and relatively un-charged Kikoho from a half-dead Tenshinhan. I'm sure it would have had at least a little more effect if he was fresh and pumped it up before firing. Furthermore, Nappa's biggest asset seems to be his durability, so he may be better at resisting big attacks.

Next qustion is, is Shin Kikoho not a different technique than Kikoho? Doesn't Tenshinhan cry out "Shin Kikoho" when he launches his assault at Cell? This should be a different technique altogether from Kikoho... something the likes of which we hadn't seen so far. It's his new trump card that he developed in the three years of training for the cyborgs, or possibly over at Kaio's place, right?

Daizenshuu 4's "Classification of Attacks" section describes the regular Kikoho as a "Kiai-type" attack, then the Shin Kikoho as a "blended" type, saying that it "continuously fires the kiai-type Kihoho." So that particular book only makes note of the Shin Kikoho being a rapid-fire version of the regular Kikoho.

But then Daizenshuu 7's Attack Dictionary notes that the Shin Kihoho is an attack that "increases the force of the Kikoho." It also, if I may, notes that Tenshinhan used it to "stop Cell from moving."

Anyway, I will now argue that a punch should also have the power to push. When Android 16 punched Cell in the face, his fist should have physically pushed Cell's face back, by making him crane his neck. That's what happens in real life when someone gets punched. But Cell resisted this pushing ability with his strength. Presumably his ki was high enough to just shield him, or the muscle in his neck strong enough to prevent the movement. Either way you look at it, No. 16 just didn't have enough "oomph" behind his attack to move Cell.

Tenshinhan's attack pushed Cell's whole body downward, and as Cell tried to fly up against it, he couldn't. So basically all of Cell's strength is being poured out in his ki as he tries to Bukujitsu out of the attack, but the power output Tenshinhan is giving off indeed seems to surpass the ki output that Cell's Bukujitsu is giving off.

I don't have much way to respond other than saying that there's a big difference between a punch from anybody, and a big energy attack designed specifically to just demolish everything in one burst. Even at wildly different power levels, the nature of each type of attack is totally different.

To make an analogy, a small child wouldn't be able to push over a pro wrestler with his own strength no matter what. But put him behind the wheel of a car and now he's going places. Even if the car isn't going fast enough (translation: even if the Kikoho's power isn't high enough) to actually hurt him, he's still going to force Mr. Wrestler to actually move.

My point: The Kikoho's burning/exploding/Ki power, whatever you'd like to call it, isn't enough to hurt Cell, and thus there's no guarantee it would be enough to hurt other people who are massively stronger than Tenshinhan either.

The Kikoho's MOVING power, on the other hand, i.e. its blunt force, is drastically different, and almost an entirely separate property of the attack by itself (if not its main property entirely). THAT was what proved enough to hold Cell back, and while it could presumably do the same to someone like Android 18, there's no guarantee that it would kill her, either. Even though Cell was still trying to fly up, that "blunt force" effect of the attack was still more than he could resist, because that's not really related to power.

It would have more to do with the formation and focusing of the attack, rather than merely how much raw Ki is put into it. Just like the Kienzan can cut through things stronger than it because it's formed with an edge, and the Makankosappo can pierce through things stronger than it because it's formed like a drill. In the same way, the Kikoho is designed to "push," to put it simply, and can thus push around things that are stronger than it.

KIENZAN: Power + "Cutting"
MAKANKOSAPPO: Power + "Drilling"
KIKOHO / SHIN KIKOHO: Power + "Pushing"

Do you get what I'm trying to say? The Kikoho / Shin Kikoho has two main properties: Ki Power / Power Level, and Blunt "Force." The former was not high enough to hurt Cell, but the latter was more than enough to stop him in his place.


I wonder if I should split this off into a new thread... It's an interesting discussion about the nature of this neat attack, but it's starting to veer too much off-topic now...

[Casual Matt]

The Kikoho is classified as a heavily focused and concentrated Kiai-type attack, which means it focuses primarily on having a lot of directed "pushing" power

I completly disagree with this, based on the actual story. When first introduced, the Kikoho is described by all involved as a "forbidden martial arts techinique" because it's so powerful and dangerous. Trying to paint it in a light where it's just "really good at pushing people" seems to be a huge stretch to me, regardless of what the Daizenshuu may or may not say on the subject. In any case, we see Vegetto disintigrate part of Buu's body with a Kiai, Freeza blow up part of a mountain with one, etc. They seem to do a lot more than just push.

I think you may be underestimating the power of concussive force.

Yes, it has pushing power, but that's because of the tremendous amount of force it exerts. Like if a normal person got hit by a big truck that stopped suddenly right after hitting them at high speed. They'd be pushed back, and likely injured because of the amount of force involved.

[SuperForteX]

Well, I've had a bit of a surprise here. Just when I was coming to say that you may have a point with all this, and give up, I clicked the links you had provided in your earlier response. I blame myself for complacency in not clicking them, thinking that surely they supported your case, but then I got a surprise when I actually followed the links.

As opposed to the other techniques here, which can bee seen in the shape of energy bullets, this category of technique cannot be directly seen by the naked eye. Things like the Kikoho and shockwaves are techniques included in this category.

By this definition, it appears that what sets apart a Kiai from a regular attack is simply that it "cannot be directly seen by the naked eye." There is nothing in here at all that mentions the Kaia-type attack is meant to focus on "pushing". In fact, the word push is nowhere to be seen here.

And look at some of the attacks listed as Kaia types.

Full-Power Shockwave
User(s): Piccolo
He unleashes the ki stored in his entire body in one burst. Enormous damage is inflicted on the surroundings.

Kikoho
User(s): Tenshinhan
A technique that puts out a kiai. Most of the body's ki is depleted.

Energy Wave
Nappa

Energy Wave
No. 20

I illustrate the ones above which most certainly have nothing to do with pushing. They simply are "invisible" and that is what categorizes them as "Kiai-type". Nappa's in particular, when he simply swipes his finger at Krillin, and a massive explosion happens. Also Piccolo's explosive wave caused a mushroom cloud and turned the entire island into a desert!

Anyway, as you said, Daizenshuu #7's account of Shin Kikoho is that it also increasees the force (strength) of the regular Kikoho. This could be considered suplimental data to what Daizenshuu #4 says, not any kind of contradiction.

So, now I'm curious... where do you get that the Kaia is focused on pushing the opponent? I'm... simply not seeing it in the links you provided.

As for your other question regarding the possibility of you moving the discussion to a seperate thread. I don't think you should. This is part of a VS. topic for Tenshinhan and Cyborg 18. But maybe now you see the point I was trying to make earlier. This is an interesting discussion. And how many people are probably never going to notice it, because it's constrained to one topic with limited visibility? See, VS. topics do go in interesting directions at times. Maybe this discussion will help you realize that the decision to constrain all VS. topics to one thread was unfair and impractical.

As it stands, however, I don't see any need to move this to a split thread. We're simply discussing Cyborg 18 VS. Tenshinhan, and nothing else. We're only focusing on the Kikoho because it was cited as Tenshinhan's ticket to victory, which we are now examining. As such, I also reject the idea that it's off-topic. We are talking about Cyborg 18 VS. Tenshinhan, because Tenshinhan's victory all parties agree hinges on whether the Shin Kikoho would damage her or not.

[Bussani]

I think there might be a difference in definitions of "push" here. If you take the different forms of radiation out of the equation, a nuclear explosion is just a big "push". Like Matt said, it's concussive force--mechanical energy. A shock wave.

I'm pretty sure there's nothing in the guides that describes kiai attacks using the word "push" itself, although a few of the attacks listed in the Special Attack Dictionary say things like "blow away" and "send opponents flying". That's how they're always portrayed in the series. I like this quote, since it's just from some random guy:

Chapter: 421 (DBZ 227), P12.3
Context: talking about the ‘golden warrior’
Random guy: “He had absolutely incredible speed and power…! He knocked over the fleeing robbers’ car from a distance with a…what would you call it?...It looked like a kiai…”

I should probably mention here that outside of the context of Dragon Ball, a kiai is a martial-arts shout, supposedly used to focus one's ki before a strike, or something like that; it varies between martial arts philosophy. That's why when they become attacks in Dragon Ball characters are like, "He blew them away...with just a kiai?!"

[Kaboom]

So, now I'm curious... where do you get that the Kiai is focused on pushing the opponent? I'm... simply not seeing it in the links you provided.

Observation, mostly.

Like Bussani said, Kiai-type techniques are generally shown as attacks that merely exert a lot of concussive force either in all directions or in one focused direction. They don't form a visible "laser beam" like others do, they don't always explode or burn or pierce through their opponents... for all intents and purposes, they are mostly just invisible shockwave attacks meant to inflict harm by either directly slamming that wave into you or by using it to shove you around in some fashion. I'll list all the instances of them having "pushing" effects that I can think of...

• Goku uses a Kiai to cancel out one of Nappa's attacks. It doesn't explode or counter it with a visible blast of his own... it's as if he used it to generate an "invisible wall" which simply blocked Nappa's attack in mid-air.
• Goku's first Kaio-Ken powered move against Vegeta is a one-handed Kiai which shatters the cliff Vegeta's standing on. No visible explosion or anything; the cliff just bursts into pieces.
• Goku uses a wide Kiai to blow away Butta and Jheese at the same time. Again, they aren't hurt or burned or anything like that... it just pushed them away.
• Goku and Freeza try to "trap" each other in successive Kiais. Goku's actually lands, and Freeza is carried by it for a moment before escaping. No actual explosions, but Freeza's shatters a cliff-side into pieces and the water below Goku's is majorly kicked up by the impact, in a wide visible circle-shape, no less.
• Freeza's planet-slicing attack (evidently called the Daichi-Retsuzan) simply carved out a huge trench in planet Namek, but didn't have any visible beam or explosion (in the manga, at least).
• Right after Goku becomes a Super Saiyan, he knocks Freeza back with a one-handed invisible Kiai.
• Freeza uses roughly 70% of his full power in a two-handed shockwave which surprises and knocks back Super Saiyan Goku.

This is only everything I could remember or notice as I flipped through the Saiyan-Freeza portion of the manga, but there's plenty of others which form a majority precedent for Kiai-type attacks to consist of mostly a lot of concussive "pushing" force. The Shin Kikoho simply strikes me as the big daddy of all Kiai-type attacks. Even if the Ki power behind it isn't enough to hurt the unlucky recipient, then it simply has so much raw shoving force behind it that it will still inhibit their movements or immobilize them all together.

So, long-story short and back on topic... the Shin Kikoho would certainly allow Tenshinhan to stop 18 in her tracks like it did to Cell... but there's no way of telling if or how much it might actually hurt her, much less equate to a one-hit kill.

[SuperForteX]

I think there might be a difference in definitions of "push" here. If you take the different forms of radiation out of the equation, a nuclear explosion is just a big "push". Like Matt said, it's concussive force--mechanical energy. A shock wave.

But in that context, the same can be said for all ki attacks. Anything that explodes produces a "shock wave." That's what an explosion is. A violent reaction that sends out expanding kinetic energy, usually coupled with thermal energy. That's not a text book definition by any means, but it's probably close enough to what that would be.

My problem with Kaboom's stance is this:

... for all intents and purposes, they are mostly just invisible shockwave attacks meant to inflict harm by either directly slamming that wave into you or by using it to shove you around in some fashion.

The part I underlined is the part I disagree with. Because it's an awfully personalized interpretation. It's differentiating between "slamming that wave directly into you", or "using it to shove you around in some fashion." Particularly the last part, I especially disagree with. There's just never been any kind of statement that the attack was designed merely to "shove you around." To me it feels strongly like semantics being played up heavily to make the attack look harmless. "Oh, that's just meant to shove people around. It's basically a big foam bat."

Asthetically, Dragon Ball is still a story. A story about Martial Arts, powerful aliens, and deadly fighting techniques that could destroy entire worlds. And in this story, the Kikoho is ominously described as a "forbidden" technique, by a Martial Arts master. A technique that takes the Kamehameha, one of the most destructive techniques in the story, and makes it look like "dog food" by comparison, to paraphrase the fanslation of Roshi's words.

And we're talking about a super-charged version of it, to boot.

It just seems like a huge stretch trying to argue that the purpose of this attack is just to shove people around. I don't really see anything from the manga or the guidebooks that backs that up. I mean, wouldn't Roshi's description of the attack be so silly if this were true?

Even among the examples that are listed, of which some indicate a harmless push, others certainly don't.

Goku and Freeza try to "trap" each other in successive Kiais. Goku's actually lands, and Freeza is carried by it for a moment before escaping. No actual explosions, but Freeza's shatters a cliff-side into pieces and the water below Goku's is majorly kicked up by the impact, in a wide visible circle-shape, no less.

To me, no one was trying to "trap" anyone. They were simply trying to "smack each other up" with a really strong blow. Goku comments that Freeza "got out of it", but that's because Freeza is so strong. What I mean by this, is that if Goku had hit Freeza with a Kamehameha directly, and Freeza managed to get out of the beam's path (something Vegeta hadn't done), then Goku could also say "Freeza got out of my Kamehameha. But no one would try to say this statement means the Kamehameha was meant to trap him.

Again, trying to spin more non-lethal traits into a move where it doesn't seem to actually exist.

And in any case, the circular round wave produced, is clearly from Freeza's movement. At least, this is how I always saw that panel. Freeza is falling towards the water from the impact of Goku's Kiai, but then he jets off to the side and pushes the water with the wind of his movement.

Freeza's planet-slicing attack (evidently called the Daichi-Retsuzan) simply carved out a huge trench in planet Namek, but didn't have any visible beam or explosion (in the manga, at least)

Yes, but in what sense does "carving out a huge trench" equate to "shoving someone around a bit?"

We're talking lethal force here.

The Kikoho, is meant to kill. It's not meant to just "shove someone around a bit." That's never... even remotely implied.

Even if the Ki power behind it isn't enough to hurt the unlucky recipient, then it simply has so much raw shoving force behind it that it will still inhibit their movements or immobilize them all together.

I feel as though my point still stands though. As, I have yet to see anyone refute this simple analogy. "No. 16's punch didn't move Cell. Tenshinhan's Shin Kikoho did. Clearly, the Shin Kikoho had more power than No. 16's punch." Since when has anything other than strength been a factor?

If something has "so much raw shoving force" that can move a brute like Cell, then that "raw shoving force" is actual striking power... I mean, Cell actively tried to fly against it, and got knocked back down!

So, long-story short and back on topic... the Shin Kikoho would certainly allow Tenshinhan to stop 18 in her tracks like it did to Cell... but there's no way of telling if or how much it might actually hurt her, much less equate to a one-hit kill.

Discussing the nature of the Shin Kikoho is "on topic", because it's a critical component at the very core of this debate. And you can't just declare that you've proven it would not harm her. I mean, I've gone out of my way to explain why I think it would harm her, and be the keynote to Tenshinhan's victory, here.

"No. 16's punch is useless against Cell. Shin Kikoho knocks him off his feet. Therefore, the Shin Kikoho is hitting with more force than Android No. 16's punch."

We know that Android No. 16 is stronger than No. 18. He's capable of hurting Primitive Cell with his punches, whereas No. 17, who's stronger than No. 18 couldn't even land a hit on him.

Then we have Brute Cell, who has No. 17's strength combined with Cell's former strength. So, he should be more than twice No. 18's senior in terms of fighting strength. At the very least.

And Tenshinhan produced enough raw power to knock him off his feet, and then to send him barreling down towards the Earth as Cell was trying to actively fly up and escape. That is power. An incredible power like that should cause exceptionally grievous wounds to someone as weak as No. 18... for the simple reason that it's managing to do that much to someone far beyond twice her fighting strength!

Never mind him using it on those like Freeza, or anyone weaker than that. It'd blow them to pieces!

[Kaboom]

I think I may have been over-emphasizing the "pushing" effect of the Kikoho, in retrospect. I'm not saying that's the primary purpose of the attack. Obviously its primary purpose and design is to blow s*** up. But when the raw Ki power isn't enough to hurt the opponent, then the blunt force I've been talking about is at least still leftover and can do something. It's the secondary effect of the attack, not the primary one.

[SuperForteX]

Ok, I understand that, but I still feel like the secondary effect of the attack shouldn't have any measure of success if it wasn't strong enough to do so. Like you're basically saying that the attack is similar to a spell from an RPG, where the attack does 1,000 damage and has a bonus effect of poison. In this case you're saying the enemy's defence is so high the attack only does 1 damage, but it still poisons them because of its special property.

I can understand this, I just don't necessarily agree with it. I don't think the secondary effect should have any measure of sucess against Cell unless it was strong enough to do so.

[Kaboom]

I can understand this, I just don't necessarily agree with it. I don't think the secondary effect should have any measure of sucess against Cell unless it was strong enough to do so.

Well, the idea is that such "secondary effects" aren't reliant on power. The Taiyo-Ken will temporarily blind anybody with eyes, regardless of how strong they are, you know?

In the same way, the raw blunt force of the super-focused and enhanced Shin Kokoho can evidently still shove someone around even if they're so strong that they don't take any actual damage from it. And that's not even a theory or anything; that's just plain what we saw happen. All I'm trying to do is explain it, as much to myself as anyone else.

[SuperForteX]

You are right that it happened in this case, but I also gave the example of not seeming to push Nappa at all. You countered that it was a one-handed hardly charged Kikoho, but it still had an impressive force behind it. Vegeta was shown looking shocked from the amount of power it put out. Nappa admited that it had concerned him a little bit. Almost as if he's saying he had put his defenses up at the last second, and had he not, bad things would have happened to him.

I just wish we had even just one more example of a kikoho's secondary affect being to push someone when it wasn't strong enough to hurt them, but in the only other case I can think of where it hits someone directly (Nappa), it didn't push them then.

[In Brightest Day]

Well, in the Anime Tien fired off a second Ki-Ko-Ho directly at Super Buu and it didn't budge him at all. I doubt it'd have enough power to push Buu back anyway, but yeah.

[Bussani]

But in that context, the same can be said for all ki attacks.

Well yeah. That's how I see it, personally. Almost all ki attacks have that "push" behind them. The Genki Dama on Namek pushed Freeza right to the ground before engulfing him. If anything, I'd say a kiai attack is one of the most basic forms of ki use because that pushing is pretty much its only effect--which is a little bit different from Kaboom's view on it, I guess.

It just seems like a huge stretch trying to argue that the purpose of this attack is just to shove people around.

I definitely don't think that. I think bringing up a nuclear blast is proof enough that I'm not underestimating the power of shoving. I'd just say that Cell was easier to move than to hurt; #16's punch couldn't do either, but Shin Kikoho could at least do one. Using that logic, if all other factors were equal, I would say that Shin Kikoho probably had more force behind it that #16's punch, which I believe is what you were saying from the start. I'm not sure where that would place him in the grand scheme of things, though, since regular punches are probably the weakest attack anyone has, while Shin Kikoho may well be the strongest attack anyone has.

As a side note, if Tenshinhan's Shin Kikoho could kill #17 and #18...the fool should have suggested it instead of whining about how doomed they were after getting their asses handed to them against the two Androids. I mean, any plan's better than none, right? But it was all, "Wah, even the guy who killed Freeza couldn't hurt them. It's hopeless."

[SuperForteX]

As a side note, if Tenshinhan's Shin Kikoho could kill #17 and #18...the fool should have suggested it instead of whining about how doomed they were after getting their asses handed to them against the two Androids. I mean, any plan's better than none, right? But it was all, "Wah, even the guy who killed Freeza couldn't hurt them. It's hopeless."

The question is, did he have the move then? He could have created it between that defeat and the struggle against Cell. Maybe seeing just how powerful the cyborgs were drove him to develop Shin Kikoho in a moment of inspiration.

Otherwise, you do have a good point...