Super Exciting Guide's power multipliers

[SuperForteX]

Well I know that Daizenshuu EX is one of the most guidebook-favoring sites out there, not to say that all you guys consider you canon, as I know many don't, but for the most part you see a lot of support for guidebook information here.

That being said, how do you feel about the Super Saiyan forms' power multipliers from the Super Exciting Guide?

Can they possibly be true? If Super Saiyan truly is a hard set x50 bonus no matter who uses it, then wouldn't every character's power in the various Super Saiyan forms be dependant on who's stronger as a regular Saiyan? It just doesn't seem to be the case in the story.

How do you explain advanced forms like Grade 2 and Grade 3 Super Saiyan, or Super Saiyan Full Power? Do they still increase x50? If it's more, how much more? Enough to surpass regular Super Saiyan, but weaker than the double power Super Saiyan 2?

[Kendamu]

Well I know that Daizenshuu EX is one of the most guidebook-favoring sites out there, not to say that all you guys consider you canon, as I know many don't, but for the most part you see a lot of support for guidebook information here.

That being said, how do you feel about the Super Saiyan forms' power multipliers from the Super Exciting Guide?

Can they possibly be true? If Super Saiyan truly is a hard set x50 bonus no matter who uses it, then wouldn't every character's power in the various Super Saiyan forms be dependant on who's stronger as a regular Saiyan? It just doesn't seem to be the case in the story.

But why is it bad that their power depends on how well trained and strong they are in their normal form? And why wouldn't it be the case? There are various Super Saiyans by the end of the series but we all know that some are stronger than others. It makes perfect sense.

How do you explain advanced forms like Grade 2 and Grade 3 Super Saiyan, or Super Saiyan Full Power? Do they still increase x50? If it's more, how much more? Enough to surpass regular Super Saiyan, but weaker than the double power Super Saiyan 2?

I'm pretty sure that the power increases for Grades 2 and 3 weren't detailed in any guides, but if I remember correctly SSj2 is 2x SSj and SSj3 is 4x SSj2? It doesn't stay as a 50x multiplier.

As for FPSSj, I never really saw it as a "new form" that has it's own power increase. It's just complete mastery of SSj so that you don't waste energy and whatnot. It's like the SSj version of when Goku started using his power in bursts against the Ginyu Force.

[Fox666]

Can they possibly be true? If Super Saiyan truly is a hard set x50 bonus no matter who uses it, then wouldn't every character's power in the various Super Saiyan forms be dependant on who's stronger as a regular Saiyan? It just doesn't seem to be the case in the story.

The 50 times multiplier isn't a number that comes from nowhere, it's based on the battle with Freeza, which Goku multiplying his power in 20 times couldn't surpass Freeza using 50-70% of his power.

That said, while some fans might deny certain plot-points, there isn't real solid evidence that the Super Saiyan has ever been anything besides a 50 times multiplier.

How do you explain advanced forms like Grade 2 and Grade 3 Super Saiyan, or Super Saiyan Full Power? Do they still increase x50? If it's more, how much more? Enough to surpass regular Super Saiyan, but weaker than the double power Super Saiyan 2?

Super Saiyan Grade II multiplier might not necessarily be lower than 2.

You must remember that a mastered Super Saiyan already overcome these transformations, and if Goku used it against Cell it probably would have no effect. It seems even Vegeta and Trunks have overcome them during the Cell Games.

And the full-power Super Saiyan is not a new transformation, it's simply the mastering of the Super Saiyan state. For that reason, it's unlikely it is any different or that you can measure it ( the increase Goku gained while training for that state is probably just a random value, like any other kind of training).

[rereboy]

Yeah, given what we see in the manga, its pretty much certain that SSJ is around 50x.

That value also explains quite nicely why the humans were never relevant again after SSJ was introduced. They could barely keep up with base Goku before that, let alone with a fighter that has the power of 50 base Gokus.

The others values are pretty much made up by the people who made the guides.

[Fox666]

The others values are pretty much made up by the people who made the guides.

Or they asked Toriyama...

[VegettoEX]

Well I know that Daizenshuu EX is one of the most guidebook-favoring sites out there

I'm not sure what that means.

Do you mean the content on the website? Well, sure, we acknowledge the books exist and talk about some of the stuff in them in some of our sections. We don't have a whole lot of "in-universe" content, though (only a couple things like our DBGT ending analysis), so all the random chatter about multipliers and strength comparisons just doesn't come up at all. There are a couple tidbits dropped in things like the "Transformation Guide" (much of the content for which was developed before some of the most recent guide books came out, unfortunately, so it needs a nice review)... but that's really it.

Do you mean folks here on the forum that's a part of the website (which I think you do)? Well, I guess so.

The thing is, and this starts to get into a little bit of cocky territory... but most of the disdain I see for any of the guide books in various other online locations (be it the daizenshuu, the Super Exciting Guides, the Extreme Battle Collections, the DBGT Perfect Files, the Bouken Special, the Film Animation Comics, the kanzenban guides...) are from people who: (1) can't read or speak Japanese, and (2) don't actually know what the books are / what's inside them. There's this crazy emphasis from... let's call them "the haters" ('cuz it's funny, and I don't know what else to say)... on strength comparisons and multipliers, as hinted at before. The thing is, that's the most tiniest of stuffage throughout these books. There will be a chart here and there, a splash image here and there... and that's it. Of all the gazillion pages in these books that cover a wealth of other information and minutia, people seem to want to focus almost exclusively on, "Holy crap, does the 'X' on that page talking about Vegetto mean multiplication, addition, versus, or is it just there for kicks?!?"

Why not focus instead on things that actually get some detail in the books? Things like character designs, how all the technology works, the proto-DB works of Toriyama that ultimately led to the series, the various locations of the cosmos... these are the kinds of things that I personally feel build a better understanding of the series. I get that it's not everyone's cup of tea, but figuring out a number for a specific transformation that may only be used once or twice doesn't really seem to contribute much to a greater understanding of the larger series, just that one tiny area. Then again, I totally get that -- hone in on one little element you love to death, and dissect the Hell out of it. That's cool.

Thaaaaaaaaaaaaat all being said...

Um. I had an answer in there somewhere. I guess it goes off into different territory. Felt like jotting it all down, though.

Super Saiyan. 20. Yes.

[Kaboom]

That being said, how do you feel about the Super Saiyan forms' power multipliers from the Super Exciting Guide?

Short answer... works for me. It's nice having official ones to use as common ground in discussions.

Though I find it especially interesting how much stronger Super Saiyan 3 is considered over the other two... It goes rather well with what was shown in the Majin Boo arc. Super Saiyan 1 and 2 are impressive, alright, but a lot of characters like Kaioshin, Bobbidi, and Dabra have a hard time even telling the difference (even putting aside their apparent lack of talent in sensing Ki most of the time).

But then Super Saiyan 3... BLAM, this thing is generating so much raw power compared to the others that it even reaches out and grabs the attention of everyone on the Kaioshin realm. It's not even like they're looking for it or specifically paying attention. Rather, it's like all that Ki just walks up, slaps you in the face, and says, "LOOK AT ME." That's hardcore.

Come to think of it, the GT Perfect Files' description of the Super Saiyan forms was something along these lines as well. It says that Goku often opts to skip right from Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan 3, since the boost from Super Saiyan 2 is relatively small compared to 3's. Of course, this may have been primarily just an excuse for why Super Saiyan 2 allegedly never appeared in GT...

Can they possibly be true? If Super Saiyan truly is a hard set x50 bonus no matter who uses it, then wouldn't every character's power in the various Super Saiyan forms be dependent on who's stronger as a regular Saiyan? It just doesn't seem to be the case in the story.

Well, I sincerely doubt it's EXACTLY 50x stronger for everyone who uses it. You're right in that it probably can vary slightly between users. Depending on the individual, how much they've practiced, how naturally the form comes to them, and so forth... Character A might get around a 45x boost from it while Character B gets almost 55x. But it's easier to just average it all out for the sake of battle power-related discussions.

And there are scattered implications throughout the story, even as far as the Boo arc, that says one's power as a Super Saiyan is linked to their normal form's power. Plenty of times we see characters training in their normal states. If each form's power is independent of the others, that wouldn't really do much good, and be pointless in the long run. But it's a lot more worthwhile if those small base-form gains you make can be instantly multiplied by 50 times or more!

How do you explain advanced forms like Grade 2 and Grade 3 Super Saiyan, or Super Saiyan Full Power? Do they still increase x50? If it's more, how much more? Enough to surpass regular Super Saiyan, but weaker than the double power Super Saiyan 2?

The easiest explanation for Grades 2 and 3 would be that they fall somewhere between Super Saiyan's 50x and Super Saiyan 2's 100x. Both are considered "beyond Super Saiyan" and grant extra power, but then a full-fledged Super Saiyan 2 is much more effective. Perhaps Grade 3's power approaches or even matches Super Saiyan 2, but falls short because of its speed weakness.

Full-Power Super Saiyan is perpetually labeled as the same thing as regular Super Saiyan, just trained to have total control to the point where no energy is wasted and it can be like your natural state if you want. Aside from those noted traits, the form has never even been labeled as something different. In fact, I'm pretty sure the term "Full-Power Super Saiyan" only ever shows up in Daizenshuu #2's 'Growing Up' guide, and even then it was only attributed to Goku. Gohan's is just called regular ol' "Super Saiyan," even though we know Gohan did the same thing.

It seems apparent that it's not considered fundamentally different from Super Saiyan in areas when it counts, and the SEG doesn't mention "full-power" at all; it just makes note of Super Saiyan's 50x boost, then talks about Super Saiyan 2 and 3 on top of it. So presumably, that means Full-Power Super Saiyan just grants the same 50x as well.

[rereboy]

The others values are pretty much made up by the people who made the guides.

Or they asked Toriyama...

Toriyama has admitted that he didn't even plan for SSJ to be a 50x power increase. He was going for like x10. However, the way the story turned out, it ended up being x50.

So, with that in mind, and given the fact that Toriyama dropped power levels completely in the Freeza arc and also the fact that in the cell arc and afterwards there is simply no way to conclude how much SSJ2 and SSJ3 and whatnot increase the power of a fighter, you will have to forgive my skepticism in believing that Toriyama gave those numbers to the guides or even if he cares enough about that stuff to actually know how much those forms increase the power of the fighters.

[Fox666]

Toriyama has admitted that he didn't even plan for SSJ to be a 50x power increase. He was going for like x10. However, the way the story turned out, it ended up being x50.

That's not exactly what he said. As far I can interpretate that interview, Toriyama do mention it is a 50 times multiplier, however he them says the feeling or sensation he had while writing the story was that of 10 times multiplier (which is forgivable, considering that he used a 10 times multiplier a few times in the manga).

Besides, the Super Saiyan should be more powerfull than an Oozaru. And that's another reason why a multiplier of 50 times makes sense (besides a simply calculation based on the Kaio-ken times 20).

So, with that in mind, and given the fact that Toriyama dropped power levels completely in the Freeza arc and also the fact that in the cell arc and afterwards there is simply no way to conclude how much SSJ2 and SSJ3 and whatnot increase the power of a fighter, you will have to forgive my skepticism in believing that Toriyama gave those numbers to the guides or even if he cares enough about that stuff to actually know how much those forms increase the power of the fighters.

He doesn't need to have a specific value for each character to make simply declarations like "double the power" or so. One example is when Goku show half of his power to Karin before the Cell Games.

The easiest explanation for Grades 2 and 3 would be that they fall somewhere between Super Saiyan's 50x and Super Saiyan 2's 100x. Both are considered "beyond Super Saiyan" and grant extra power, but then a full-fledged Super Saiyan 2 is much more effective. Perhaps Grade 3's power approaches or even matches Super Saiyan 2, but falls short because of its speed weakness.

Hmm, I don't think it works that way, considering Vegeta and Trunks dropped these transformations during the Cell Games.

Or at least I wouldn't think it would be strange if a new guide suddenly reveals that the Grade II increase the power by 2 or 3 times or anything. I don't think there is any need for them to have a correlation with Super Saiyan 2.

Well, I sincerely doubt it's EXACTLY 50x stronger for everyone who uses it. You're right in that it probably can vary slightly between users. Depending on the individual, how much they've practiced, how naturally the form comes to them, and so forth... Character A might get around a 45x boost from it while Character B gets almost 55x. But it's easier to just average it all out for the sake of battle power-related discussions.

I suppose neither the Oozaru is exactly 10 times.

If someone checked with a super Scouter the battle power of Goku during the battle with Freeza, the Scouter would point out something like this: 3,193,124 (regular state), 33,901,213 (Kaio-ken x10), 159,218,283 (Super Saiyan) etc.

[Kaboom]

If someone checked with a super Scouter the battle power of Goku during the battle with Freeza, the Scouter would point out something like this: 3,193,124 (regular state), 33,901,213 (Kaio-ken x10), 159,218,283 (Super Saiyan) etc.

Yeah, exactly. Power levels stopped being that precise sometime during the battle with Nappa and Vegeta, and just about everything after that, stated or otherwise, is rounded. Multipliers too are almost certainly the "average" boost, while it would be closer to the truth to say that Super Saiyan is "around fifty times stronger than normal."

[rereboy]

Toriyama has admitted that he didn't even plan for SSJ to be a 50x power increase. He was going for like x10. However, the way the story turned out, it ended up being x50.

That's not exactly what he said. As far I can interpretate that interview, Toriyama do mention it is a 50 times multiplier, however he them says the feeling or sensation he had while writing the story was that of 10 times multiplier (which is forgivable, considering that he used a 10 times multiplier a few times in the manga).

Besides, the Super Saiyan should be more powerfull than an Oozaru. And that's another reason why a multiplier of 50 times makes sense (besides a simply calculation based on the Kaio-ken times 20).

So, with that in mind, and given the fact that Toriyama dropped power levels completely in the Freeza arc and also the fact that in the cell arc and afterwards there is simply no way to conclude how much SSJ2 and SSJ3 and whatnot increase the power of a fighter, you will have to forgive my skepticism in believing that Toriyama gave those numbers to the guides or even if he cares enough about that stuff to actually know how much those forms increase the power of the fighters.

He doesn't need to have a specific value for each character to make simply declarations like "double the power" or so. One example is when Goku show half of his power to Karin before the Cell Games.

I believe you missed my point since what you said doesn't contradict what I said in the slightest. I even agree with you.

The stuff I said (and other things) just makes me extremely sceptical regarding the accuracy of the guides when they talk about the values of SSJ2, SSJ3 and whatnot.

[Kaboom]

Hmm, I don't think it works that way, considering Vegeta and Trunks dropped these transformations during the Cell Games.

Or at least I wouldn't think it would be strange if a new guide suddenly reveals that the Grade II increase the power by 2 or 3 times or anything. I don't think there is any need for them to have a correlation with Super Saiyan 2.

Well, that's a teensy bit of my "fanon" coming through in that explanation, I suppose, since I treat the Grades forms as being flawed and inferior methods of tapping into SSj2's power, and ultimately falling short of it. But it fits with how both of them are considered "beyond Super Saiyan," as well as... wasn't there some sort of comment from Trunks in the anime, where he noted that Gohan "did it the right way?" I may just be imagining that.

[Zephyr]

wasn't there some sort of comment from Trunks in the anime, where he noted that Gohan "did it the right way?" I may just be imagining that.

I remember that too, but I've only seen the dub of that part.

[CatouttaHell]

The main reason people use a smaller boost for SSjin than 50x is because the Base Saiya-jins, Yakon, Pui-Pui, etc have to be >>> Piccolo (at least in the opinion of me and the vast majority of people who use lower boosts.) The Kiri numbers also imply that there may be a 5x or 4x boost. Personally I use a 50x boost as I don't mind bloating my numbers up to make everything work. The 2x SSjin 2 multiplier just doesn't work because Boo Arc SSjin Goku can't be > Boo Arc SSjin 2 Gohan, and with a multiplier like that it means he didn't even double his power in 7 years. I use a 5x multiplier for SSjin 2 and give Gohan an additional 2x enraged multiplier personally.

I currently use a 10x boost for Goku's SSjin 3 and a 1.33x boost for Gotenks' SSjin 3. I'm thinking of changing the latter to 2x or 4x though.

And just for the hell of it, since I'm already posting in this thread: my SSjin 4 multiplier is 15x SSjin 3, and my LSSjin multiplier is 600x SSjin.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I also remember that. Trunks basically said Gohan maximized both power & speed without losing anything in the process. I think he just comments on his speed in the original version. Not sure if he makes any comment like this in the Manga. I should probably check it.

[Kaboom]

Not sure if he makes any comment like this in the Manga. I should probably check it.

I flipped through my copy of the manga, and Trunks doesn't seem to comment on anything other than Cell's bulking up, noting that it's the same power-in-exchange-for-speed mistake that he made. Nothing to say about Gohan that I noticed, which is why I suspected it was an anime line.

[Fox666]

Well, that's a teensy bit of my "fanon" coming through in that explanation, I suppose, since I treat the Grades forms as being flawed and inferior methods of tapping into SSj2's power, and ultimately falling short of it. But it fits with how both of them are considered "beyond Super Saiyan," as well as... wasn't there some sort of comment from Trunks in the anime, where he noted that Gohan "did it the right way?" I may just be imagining that.

Wouldn't the properly "beyond Super Saiyan" being the full-power state? Or at least it seems the full-power goes beyond the Grades

[Kaboom]

Wouldn't the properly "beyond Super Saiyan" being the full-power state?

Nah, "full-power" Super Saiyan is just regular Super Saiyan, but with absolute control. It was never labeled or described as "beyond Super Saiyan" like the others. In fact, after trying out the Grades forms, Goku decides that adding extra power in such a manner isn't worth the drawbacks, and that sticking to regular ol' Super Saiyan is the better method. (Daizenshuu #2 even notes that "Goku decided that an unreasonable power-up was a disadvantage.") That's when he proposes the idea of, "we can use the regular Super Saiyan form better if we get our bodies completely used to it." And that's exactly what he and Gohan do: they 'master' Super Saiyan, and then they train. A lot.

All-in-all, "Full-Power" Super Saiyan is just a controlled and perfected version of the form. It's all about doing more with less. The "full-power" label comes from how all of its energy can now be put into battle with no extra stress or drain, rather than being wasted.

[Fox666]

Well, we could think that Grade II and III are a pseudo-beyondness, and full-power is the key to achieve the true state beyond Super Saiyan.

-- Super Saiyan: 1/5
---- Grade II: 2/5
---- Grade III: 3/5
---- Full-power: 5/5
-- Super Saiyan 2: 10/5

[Kendamu]

Why not focus instead on things that actually get some detail in the books? Things like character designs, how all the technology works, the proto-DB works of Toriyama that ultimately led to the series, the various locations of the cosmos... these are the kinds of things that I personally feel build a better understanding of the series. I get that it's not everyone's cup of tea, but figuring out a number for a specific transformation that may only be used once or twice doesn't really seem to contribute much to a greater understanding of the larger series, just that one tiny area. Then again, I totally get that -- hone in on one little element you love to death, and dissect the Hell out of it. That's cool.

Going based off the "can't read Japanese" aspect of most of English speaking fans, I'm sure things like this might happen just a bit more often if the guide books actually got translated and were sold to English speaking fans. While I'm happy just going to Kanzentai for the same answers, having the books would probably help a lot of us out in coming up with new stuff to discuss.

Of course, if only VIZ or FUNi or whoever would just do it, already... Who am I kidding? I'm pretty sure the DBox was our only "Get out of jail free" card we'll ever get.