The first I can accept and the second I believe happened to nigh everybody in the Buu arc, including Goku. That's why such crazy stuff as Fusion got introduced.CatouttaHell wrote:Believe me, I see your point. But even with that you have to accept Goten trained hard enough to not be terribly far from Vegeta, or that Vegeta maxed out.
Fair enough. I personally don't think anybody maxed out, GT or not, but whatever. I suppose if you don't believe in the GT Base Goku > Chibi Boo > SSjin Vegetto Toei Hax then it's possible Vegeta just maxed out at the Boo Arc and Goku didn't. Vegeta had to be brought beyond his limits just to match Goku (minus SSjin 3) after all. And in GT Vegeta has to go SSjin 2 to defeat Gohan and Goten, who Goku rapes in base.Rocketman wrote:The first I can accept and the second I believe happened to nigh everybody in the Buu arc, including Goku. That's why such crazy stuff as Fusion got introduced.
The rest of your post is why I don't care for GT in general.
GT-wise Pan is a monstrously strong person. Her feats put her far above the SSjin 3 level IMHO. So I wouldn't say him getting his arse kicked by her is THAT bad.Eddie wrote:Wasn't Goten last seen in Z getting his ass kicked by a four year old girl? Between that and his skirt chasing, his GT strength really doesn't make sense.
Rocketman wrote:Where you born unable to understand jokes or is this the result of years of hard training?
By 'maxed out', I don't mean 'never can gain any more power ever', but that they've hit the crest of the law of diminishing returns. Vegeta or Mystic Gohan or Goku (Z, GT Goku is a god taking Goku's form) can keep training, and can keep gaining strength, but it's going to be less...and less...and less no matter how much effort is put in. Personally, I think Super Saiyan 3 is the epitome of this, hitting so much power that the living world simply can't contain it.CatouttaHell wrote:Fair enough. I personally don't think anybody maxed out, GT or not
I suppose if you don't believe in the GT Base Goku > Chibi Boo > SSjin Vegetto Toei Hax
Especially with Toei giving him lines like "I am Vegeta, sole protector of the planet Earth!" then immediately kicking him down so he can stare up at Godku's balls.I must admit it's a shame that the only times he was relevant in GT is when some freak parasite possessed him and when he cheated to get to SSjin 4 using a machine. :(
I don't know if I believe any of the Saiya-jins reached that point. I think Piccolo probably did after the 3 years of training with Goku and the Earthlings did some time or another, and maybe Vegeta by the Boo Arc. Not really sure about Goku. He told Chibi Boo that he wanted to fight him again and that by that time he'd be much, much better.Rocketman wrote:By 'maxed out', I don't mean 'never can gain any more power ever', but that they've hit the crest of the law of diminishing returns. Vegeta or Mystic Gohan or Goku (Z, GT Goku is a god taking Goku's form) can keep training, and can keep gaining strength, but it's going to be less...and less...and less no matter how much effort is put in. Personally, I think Super Saiyan 3 is the epitome of this, hitting so much power that the living world simply can't contain it.
I have GT Base Goku 1.44x stronger than SSjin Vegetto and only a mere 500,000x stronger than he was in the Boo Arc. So I guess I'm doing something wrong.Rocketman wrote:I don't at all. No amount of training should ever be able to equal the power boost from fusing with Vegeta, which at the absolute minimum is x2,000,000.
All I can say to this is LOL!Rocketman wrote:Especially with Toei giving him lines like "I am Vegeta, sole protector of the planet Earth!" then immediately kicking him down so he can stare up at Godku's balls.
Rocketman wrote:Where you born unable to understand jokes or is this the result of years of hard training?
Even with Toei's logic, we shouldn't assume that Kid Boo is stronger than Vegetto (even if the anime fuck this up). The only time GT Goku is stronger than SSj Vegetto is becoming an Ssj4 and maybe to the extend SSj3 (that depends if SSj3 Goku gotten a power up when he gotten his tail pull out).Believe me, I see your point. But even with that you have to accept Goten trained hard enough to not be terribly far from Vegeta, or that Vegeta maxed out. GT Base Goku is stronger than Chibi Boo who would kick Super Vegetto's arse (please don't murder me) by Toei logic so that in itself is proof of incomprehensibly massive power increases.
Expect that neither Goten nor Trunks ever achieved SSj2; heck GT Perfect Files doesn't even list Goten and Trunks as SSj2. So I doubted that Goten, who sit on his ass for 15 years, suddenly becoming just as strong as Vegeta.For Goten to achieve SSjin 2 I think he would have to have done a fair amount of training.
Chaotic Boohan was Boohan with a part of Chibi Boo's suppressed power coming through and he was already close to Super Vegetto. GT Base Goku had an advantage over General Rild, who was stated to be above Majin Boo (he was referring to the strongest one, Chibi Boo, IMO,) so GT Base Goku would solo Super Vegetto and the entire DBZverse with his pinky IMO. If you're curious, I did a detailed rant about this here.Shineman wrote:Even with Toei's logic, we shouldn't assume that Kid Boo is stronger than Vegetto (even if the anime fuck this up). The only time GT Goku is stronger than SSj Vegetto is becoming an Ssj4 and maybe to the extend SSj3 (that depends if SSj3 Goku gotten a power up when he gotten his tail pull out).
Goten was a SSjin 2 against Gohan. They were close when he was a SSjin and suddenly Goten powered up, had a change in his hair, and was surrounded by lightning/sparks. Trunks also went SSjin 2 when Bebi tried to possess him.Shineman wrote:Expect that neither Goten nor Trunks ever achieved SSj2; heck GT Perfect Files doesn't even list Goten and Trunks as SSj2. So I doubted that Goten, who sit on his ass for 15 years, suddenly becoming just as strong as Vegeta.
Rocketman wrote:Where you born unable to understand jokes or is this the result of years of hard training?
No, he was just stated to be above "Majin Boo," and that doesn't have to mean Pure Boo. It wasn't nearly so specific. Not arguing with you, just correcting something you said was "stated."CatouttaHell wrote:GT Base Goku had an advantage over General Rild, who was stated to be above Chibi Boo
Yeah, you're right about that. I edited my post to say that IMO he was referring to Chibi Boo.Kaboom wrote:No, he was just stated to be above "Majin Boo," and that doesn't have to mean Pure Boo. It wasn't nearly so specific. Not arguing with you, just correcting something you said was "stated."
Rocketman wrote:Where you born unable to understand jokes or is this the result of years of hard training?
I don't think he went Super Saiyan 2. I think he was just powering up in Super Saiyan.CatouttaHell wrote:And in GT Vegeta has to go SSjin 2 to defeat Gohan and Goten, who Goku rapes in base.
By that logic, does that also mean Vegetto was a Super Saiyan 2 for a split second upon transforming but then suddenly went right back down to Super Saiyan for no explicable reason (and with no visual change other than the lightning), because he had lightning initially?CatouttaHell wrote:Goten was a SSjin 2 against Gohan. They were close when he was a SSjin and suddenly Goten powered up, had a change in his hair, and was surrounded by lightning/sparks. Trunks also went SSjin 2 when Bebi tried to possess him.
CatouttaHell wrote:I guess he's just impossibly powerful and he now gets thrills from letting things go as much to hell as possible before busting out his ultimate power and ending the villain or some shit.
Toei pretty much just seems to show any SSjin 2 transformation but Goku and Kid Gohan's (they have distinct hair) as the user powering up/going Super Saiya-jin while already Super Saiya-jin. Going by Vegeta's aura, etc he likely went SSjin 2 against Super #17 the same way Goten did against Gohan.Nazi Cola wrote:I don't think he went Super Saiyan 2. I think he was just powering up in Super Saiyan.
Goten passes out after Bebi attacks Gohan so while he only had lightning initially, he wasn't conscious enough for us to see if he'd continue to have lightning. Lightning doesn't mean someone is SSjin 2 but it's one of the only indicators for someone who isn't Son Goku or Kid Gohan; they're the only ones to have distinct hair in SSjin 2.Nazi Cola wrote:By that logic, does that also mean Vegetto was a Super Saiyan 2 for a split second upon transforming but then suddenly went right back down to Super Saiyan for no explicable reason (and with no visual change other than the lightning), because he had lightning initially?
I haven't watched the Bebi Goten/Gohan fight in a few months but I don't remember Gohan's hair changing or him being surrounded in lightning at all.
Well as you yourself said, Goku goes SSjin 2 against Rild who that proves the GT Perfect Files wrong already. He also went SSjin 2 against Bebi the second time they fought. The first time he went straight to SSjin 3 but the first time he went through all of the forms.Kaboom wrote:Officially, according to the GT Perfect Files, nobody in GT ever used Super Saiyan 2. Why? I dunno. It's GT. There's even a short bit in his battle with Rild where Goku's hair distinctly changes into its SSj2 shape...
But anyway, Toei has had a bad habit of throwing around the lighting sparks for special effect whenever they want, so that's not a sure-fire sign of SSj2 like in the manga.
That's definitely true. Even if you don't believe Gohan was a SSjin 2 against Dabra (I personally do,) there are other instances of users lacking sparks to look weak/weakened. Super Perfect Cell, Nappa, SSjin Vegetto, etc all have sparks too despite not being SSjin 2.SuperForteX wrote:It's not a sure-fire sign in the manga either. I can think of at least one SSj2 that lacks the sparks, and at least one SSj1 that has them.
Rocketman wrote:Where you born unable to understand jokes or is this the result of years of hard training?
Maybe he just wanted them to look cooler in Neko Majin Z.Travis Touchdown wrote:Don't forget Goku & Onio have sparks as regular Super Saiyans in Neko Majin Z. I'm pretty sure sparks being a telltale sign of SSJ2 has been forgotten even by Toriyama for him to draw them like that.
I refuse to believe Toriyama just added them as a way to tell fans that Neko Majin Z isn't canon. I find that argument ridiculous considering how forgetful he tends to be and even admits to.
Well a SSjin 2 needing sparks to be a SSjin 2 is one of those ideas that many fans think is set in stone and will never consider may not be so. Sparks are a good indicator someone is a SSjin 2 but one has to look beyond whether there are or are not sparks. Toei-wise, especially in GT, it seems that the main indicator someone is a SSjin 2 is if they power up or seem to go SSjin while already SSjin. Sometimes the user has sparks for the first few moments just to say that they are a SSjin 2. Toei is lazy like that.Travis Touchdown wrote:Don't forget Goku & Onio have sparks as regular Super Saiyans in Neko Majin Z. I'm pretty sure sparks being a telltale sign of SSJ2 has been forgotten even by Toriyama for him to draw them like that.
I refuse to believe Toriyama just added them as a way to tell fans that Neko Majin Z isn't canon. I find that argument ridiculous considering how forgetful he tends to be and even admits to.
Rocketman wrote:Where you born unable to understand jokes or is this the result of years of hard training?
At most, he'd say something like "it's a part of the main story." However, what he did say was that GT was DB's grand side-story. Personally, I interpret this as his way of saying it actually happened, he just didn't draw it every week and then volume the series himself. Why? Because he didn't say that it takes place in an alternate universe(paraphrased) like he did with the movies.Fox666 wrote:Toriyama would never use such a fan-created term as "canon".
I agree completely. The main reason GT isn't considered canon by the masses is because they hate it. Toriyama's approval and the fact that he sadi it's a grand side-story is good enough for me.NeoKING wrote:At most, he'd say something like "it's a part of the main story." However, what he did say was that GT was DB's grand side-story. Personally, I interpret this as his way of saying it actually happened, he just didn't draw it every week and then volume the series himself. Why? Because he didn't say that it takes place in an alternate universe(paraphrased) like he did with the movies.
BUT, that's just how I take it.
Rocketman wrote:Where you born unable to understand jokes or is this the result of years of hard training?
My own little theory is that Gohan still had the ability to transform, but after that massive powerup he received in a short period of time, his body couldn't handle multiplying that by 50 times for Super Saiyan. He would then have to train some more to re-unlock the form and be able to use it freely. But all of that is pure speculation; do the guidebooks say anything more about it?rereboy wrote:And, thanks to it, Gohan has access to all of his potential power, including the power he could achieve with the SSJ transformations, without actually having to transform into a SSJ, therefore bypassing all the downsides of transforming into a SSJ, namely the SSJ3 power drain.
