My thoughts on Chibi Boo and SSjin 3 Goku's powers

[CatouttaHell]

I respect your opinion, and yes I've heard this argument many times... but I just don't like the argument at all. If Goku had believed he'd stay small like that even outside of Buu, don't you think he'd have been a little more distressed?

Crap! We're all smaller than fleas! Even Gohan and the others are this small. Shoot, let's just stay inside of Buu for the rest of our lives, it's going to totally suck living in the human world when we're this small.

Goku's whole "Let's not go outside because we can't win" can easily be justified by explaining he was equally unsure about beating pure Buu. He wanted to hang around on Kaioshin Kai and come up with a plan. Buu appeared and forced his hand. He had no choice but to fight, and even said as much.

In the case where he was inside Super Buu, he wasn't forced into that situation quite yet. He had Gohan and the others with them, powerless and helpless, so that's a HUGE factor in him being overly cautious. Of course he's not going to want to start a fight he could possibly lose.

That's a very good explanation. It's also possible his Ki sensing was somewhat thrown off by the fact that he was tiny and inside Boo himself. Most people just go with the "oh Goku is simply weaker than Shin Boo and thus Chibi Boo is weaker than Shin Boo" explanation but there's many more logical ways to explain that.

Now that I think about it, it's possible Goku didn't want Vegeta to know that his SSjin 3 was in all actuality far greater than what he put out against Fat Boo because he was worried that Vegeta would do even more stupid shit out of jealousy. He didn't want to leave Boo's body just yet because he'd much rather have Gohan and Gotenks wake up so he can not worry about Boo absorbing them while they're helpless and unconscious and so he can have THEM take out Shin Boo for him so Vegeta doesn't find out how strong he truly is.

I think when you consider that until Chibi Boo hit the scene, Goku was trying to get the younger generation to take care of the problem, and that until Vegeta stopped caring he was trying to avoid Vegeta knowing his true power, the possibility that Chibi Boo > Chou Gohan > Shin Boo makes a lot more sense. It's just my opinion, and I'm not saying I'm any more right than anyone else, just saying there's solid evidence for this viewpoint.

So now we have to wonder WHY Boo would absorb the two Kaioshin in the first place. The anime's flashback actually has South and Dai Kaioshin being a match for him, forcing Boo's hand, but that's just the anime. Otherwise, did Bibbidi order him to do it, or something? Probably not, since Boo was so difficult to control at that point...

I'm thinking maybe those old Kaioshin were supposed to be really strong, South in particular. East Kaioshin did make it clear that he was the weakest of the three... We might have a slight inconsistency here with the old-time Kaioshins' strength, considering the Z-Sword and such.

The Anime filler of the Kaioshins is just so ridiculous when you consider to what insane levels Toei bloated Chibi Boo's power up to. But anyway, my personal fanon explanation is that Chibi Boo could've just eaten them for no reason at all. Keep in mind he's a completely mindless maniac. He had no real reason for screaming at a deafening volume and then blowing up the Earth as soon as he appeared but he did it anyway. Buff Boo LOOKS like he's many times stronger than Chibi Boo but that's just because the South Kaioshin was a burly guy, and the fact that he was a Kaioshin and that Boo had no prior absorptions, made Boo take on a very similiar appearance.

Dunno, just trying to make Chibi Boo work with the Z-Sword statements.

[Infamous_666]

Well the manga says:

….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption

Probably answers the question as to why Boo absorbed at least Dai Kaioshin -- to gain a heart. Isn't that from Pinocchio? Haha another Disney reference I have found.

Super Boo: We'll just be killed.
Kid Boo: If I get one minute.

Evidence for Super Boo.

Goku: He doesn't need to use the RoSaT. He might need it later on in his life.
Goku: He will definitely beat Boo.
Goku: I told Boo someone stronger than me would come to fight.
Piccolo: Your power is incredible but how about your speed? Show me a little.

We are talking about SSJ Gotenks's (Pre-RoSaT) chances of taking on Fat Boo, an opponent who survived SSJ2 Vegeta's suicide attack which Goku says he can't possibly win with SSJ2 because of. I won't even go into how I think Post-RoSaT Gotenks is much stronger than Pre-RoSaT. Also, I believe Piccolo knew SSJ3 Goku could have beaten Fat Boo.

That's probably the biggest evidence for Super Boo's superiority over Kid Boo. Its like comparing Gotenks to Goku, its just not a fair comparison.

[roidrage]

Here's an idea; Kid Buu is weaker than Super Buu, but he's still more dangerous. Why? Because he can't be manipulated. Super Buu and all his different forms, to varying extents, all had the common "I want a challenge" mentality, and were willing to allow the heroes certain gains to further that end. But Kid Buu? He doesn't give a shit; he'll blow up the planet in a second, good fight or not.

I personally think Kid Buu and SS3 Goku were roughly even, with Goku having the upper hand once he'd been able to reach full power. But Kid Buu would still have the advantage; he can regenerate, and won't let up for any reason. Goku does comment that he's deliberately stretching out the fight, but I don't think that indicates greater strength so much as it does greater stamina; they may be on an even keel at first, but it won't stay that way, like Android 18 and Vegeta, or Android 17 and a fused Piccolo.

[Kaboom]

That's probably the biggest evidence for Super Boo's superiority over Kid Boo. Its like comparing Gotenks to Goku, its just not a fair comparison.

That's far and above the biggest problem with the Pure Boo > Evil Boo stance. You can't just ignore or rewrite all the plot elements about Gotenks without making up some really wacky and un-supportable theories to explain it. It'd be the biggest inconsistency that a guidebook answer could cause, too.

[Xyex]

Even if a guidebook were to come out and say Kid Buu > Super Buu I'd just ignore it for the same reason I ignore the SEG's 4x for SSJ3: the events of the manga simply don't support it. IMO, the manga makes it 100% clear that Super Buu is stronger (even if only just enough to be too much) than Kid Buu.

I think I'll explain how I view the whole Buu/Kaioshin relationship, too. The South Kaioshin would have made Buu stronger. The Dai Kaioshin then restrained that power down to Fat Buu's level. Becoming Super Buu did not release all of his restrained power, but it did draw out most, thus he goes up again. The increase in ki that Goku and Vegeta felt was that last little bit of with held power coming through. I see it as this:

South Kaioshin - 50
SSJ Gohan - 75
Majin Vegeta - 340
Fat Buu - 420
SSJ3 Goku - 510
Kid Buu - 640
Super Buu - 670
Buff Buu - 690

[CatouttaHell]

Well the manga says:

….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption

Probably answers the question as to why Boo absorbed at least Dai Kaioshin -- to gain a heart. Isn't that from Pinocchio? Haha another Disney reference I have found.

Super Boo: We'll just be killed.
Kid Boo: If I get one minute.

Evidence for Super Boo.

Goku: He doesn't need to use the RoSaT. He might need it later on in his life.
Goku: He will definitely beat Boo.
Goku: I told Boo someone stronger than me would come to fight.
Piccolo: Your power is incredible but how about your speed? Show me a little.

We are talking about SSJ Gotenks's (Pre-RoSaT) chances of taking on Fat Boo, an opponent who survived SSJ2 Vegeta's suicide attack which Goku says he can't possibly win with SSJ2 because of. I won't even go into how I think Post-RoSaT Gotenks is much stronger than Pre-RoSaT. Also, I believe Piccolo knew SSJ3 Goku could have beaten Fat Boo.

That's probably the biggest evidence for Super Boo's superiority over Kid Boo. Its like comparing Gotenks to Goku, its just not a fair comparison.

SSjin 3 Goku was very likely holding back against Fat Boo. The statements about SSjin 3 Goku against Chibi Boo seem to imply he's on a completely different tier than before ("you're the only one capable of fighting him.") The out-universe explanation was that he got a last minute hax in order to be the hero again I guess.

I don't even think SSjin Gotenks could've beaten Fat Boo before the RoSaT to be honest. Piccolo didn't outright state he COULD, only call him incredible. Gotenks thought he could win, but this is the same Gotenks who thought he could win when he was 50x weaker, so he's obviously very unreliable IMO. The statement about being killed if they leave Shin Boo's body is kind of funny. When he said that he had no idea or any way of knowing Shin Boo could walk around his own body, so he assumed he'd be able to just sit around in there for as long as he wanted IMO.

I think it's likely he really didn't want Vegeta to know about his true SSjin 3 power (or last minute hax, if you will) and still wanted the next generation to handle things instead and so was planning on laying low until Gohan and Gotenks woke up. He said "if we go outside like this" after all. Unless he was assuming that if they sat around doing nothing for long enough a new pair of Potara would appear, I don't see why he would phrase it like that IMO.

Then Chibi Boo, who was too much of an opponent for even Chou Gohan, came around. He followed Goku-tachi to the Kaioshin Realm and forced Goku's hand, making him reveal his true SSjin 3 power. By the time everybody on Earth was resurrected the cat was already long out of the bag, and Chou Gohan and Gotenks simply weren't enough anymore IMO ("you're the only one capable of fighting him.") SSjin 3 Goku had foolishly spent way too much time fooling around with Boo and now the one remaining option that could possibly work was the Genki Dama.

Here's an idea; Kid Buu is weaker than Super Buu, but he's still more dangerous. Why? Because he can't be manipulated. Super Buu and all his different forms, to varying extents, all had the common "I want a challenge" mentality, and were willing to allow the heroes certain gains to further that end. But Kid Buu? He doesn't give a shit; he'll blow up the planet in a second, good fight or not.

I personally think Kid Buu and SS3 Goku were roughly even, with Goku having the upper hand once he'd been able to reach full power. But Kid Buu would still have the advantage; he can regenerate, and won't let up for any reason. Goku does comment that he's deliberately stretching out the fight, but I don't think that indicates greater strength so much as it does greater stamina; they may be on an even keel at first, but it won't stay that way, like Android 18 and Vegeta, or Android 17 and a fused Piccolo.

Shin Boo would've killed weak guys like SSjin 2 Goku and Vegeta outright though. Chibi Boo however plays around with everyone to a ridiculous extent. He even didn't kill Base Vegeta. Goku said he'd get much, much better and that he wants to have a rematch with Chibi Boo after that, which implies Chibi Boo >>> SSjin 3 Goku.

[Chou Gohan]

(and to some of us, a religious debate apparently)

With the way some people treat it, it may as well be considered just that for some. I can't help but wonder how those people would feel if anything saying their view is wrong was ever made. A guidebook would most likely just be disregarded if it said anything. But what if something like a new DB story by Toriyama himself happened (we know it won't, but just imagine)? Initially they (especially the "Toriyama is God" cult) would be right on board praising it regardless. But what if all of a sudden something in the story said Pure Buu was stronger than Evil Buu or (even worse *gasp*) the strongest Buu? They'd instantly reject and even burn the new story constantly ranting things like, "Toriyama is such a big fool! He doesn't know jack! He's no more reliable than Toei! Blah blah blah!!!"

Personally, I've always been one enjoy the fun of the story over strict everything-must-be-perfect-and-have-no-flaw-whatsoever consistency. I've always saw Pure Buu as the strongest Buu just because it gives the Buu saga (and the series as a whole) a more exciting and complete ending. It makes about as much sense as Cell regenerating from a single cell in his head and coming back all super powered when Goku had already blown his head off and it had been shown that he was like his namek parents in that he couldn't regenerate his energy meaning he either shouldn't have regenerated or should've been nearly lifeless for a while, but it gives the story a fun and complete ending. But if somebody only cares about how consistent the story is, good for them. I could probably recommend quite a few series out there that are way more consistent than anything dragonball could ever dream of, though.

[CatouttaHell]

With the way some people treat it, it may as well be considered just that for some. I can't help but wonder how those people would feel if anything saying their view is wrong was ever made. A guidebook would most likely just be disregarded if it said anything. But what if something like a new DB story by Toriyama himself happened (we know it won't, but just imagine)? Initially they (especially the "Toriyama is God" cult) would be right on board praising it regardless. But what if all of a sudden something in the story said Pure Buu was stronger than Evil Buu or (even worse *gasp*) the strongest Buu? They'd instantly reject and even burn the new story constantly ranting things like, "Toriyama is such a big fool! He doesn't know jack! He's no more reliable than Toei! Blah blah blah!!!"

Personally, I've always been one enjoy the fun of the story over strict everything-must-be-perfect-and-have-no-flaw-whatsoever consistency. I've always saw Pure Buu as the strongest Buu just because it gives the Buu saga (and the series as a whole) a more exciting and complete ending. It makes about as much sense as Cell regenerating from a single cell in his head and coming back all super powered when Goku had already blown his head off and it had been shown that he was like his namek parents in that he couldn't regenerate his energy meaning he either shouldn't have regenerated or should've been nearly lifeless for a while, but it gives the story a fun and complete ending. But if somebody only cares about how consistent the story is, good for them. I could probably recommend quite a few series out there that are way more consistent than anything dragonball could ever dream of, though.

It find it pretty funny how most people who believe Chibi Boo > Shin Boo are people who don't over-analyse the series to hell and are just casual readers/watchers (I'm one of the worst at over-analysing powers in the series and I believe that, but yeah.) I honestly think Chibi Boo being the strongest Boo or one of the strongest Boos is intended by Toriyama. Yes, it's inconsistent but there are many ways to explain the things that may prove this "wrong" without just saying Chibi Boo is weak.

I really don't expect perfect consistency from a guy who makes his stories up as he writes/draws them and forgets everything. I consider what is likely the author's intention to be far superior to stuff like fan-made battle powers and previous statements that contradict it. Toriyama doesn't care about battle powers. He never stopped to think "maybe I should give Goku another transformation or something, making him this strong would make inconsistent multipliers for him and Gotenks." For me personally, Vegeta's statement about Goku being the only one capable of fighting Chibi Boo, despite knowing the power of Chou Gohan, who was far stronger than Gotenks and everyone else, says everything. Goku and co going through all that trouble to make the Genki Dama when they can just teleport over two guys who could supposedly rape Chibi Boo in seconds is just ridiculous to me.

[Piccolo Daimao]

For me personally, Vegeta's statement about Goku being the only one capable of fighting Chibi Boo, despite knowing the power of Chou Gohan, who was far stronger than Gotenks and everyone else, says everything. Goku and co going through all that trouble to make the Genki Dama when they can just teleport over two guys who could supposedly rape Chibi Boo in seconds is just ridiculous to me.

Not that I particularly care about "Super Boo vs. Kid Boo", but of course Goku was the only one capable of fighting Kid Boo - Gohan and Gotenks were dead, and it was only Goku, Vegeta, Mr. Satan and Bee left on the planet.

And going through all that trouble to make the Genki-Dama is just one of the problems the Boo arc has. Pretty much everyone turn into idiots at certain points for the sake of the plot. Goku and Vegeta could've used Fusion to make Gogeta and destroy Kid Boo with that, but didn't, assumedly because the both of them were too proud for their own good.

[Fox666]

Well, at least Goku asked if Vegeta brought them back to life so that they could fight.

If I am not wrong at some point Vegeta replied that they would end up getting absorbed.

At least that makes some sense, whenever Evil Boo faced someone stronger than him, he managed to increase his ability by absorption. In the end Gotenks and Gohan being on the battlefield caused more trouble than helped.

[Piccolo Daimao]

If I am not wrong at some point Vegeta replied that they would end up getting absorbed.

That wasn't stated in the manga. And with their speed and the fact that they now know about Boo's absorption, it's a possibility that they could avoid it. Gohan and Gotenks were only absorbed because they were taken by surprise and, for the latter, didn't know about Boo's absorption.

[CatouttaHell]

Not that I particularly care about "Super Boo vs. Kid Boo", but of course Goku was the only one capable of fighting Kid Boo - Gohan and Gotenks were dead, and it was only Goku, Vegeta, Mr. Satan and Bee left on the planet.

And going through all that trouble to make the Genki-Dama is just one of the problems the Boo arc has. Pretty much everyone turn into idiots at certain points for the sake of the plot. Goku and Vegeta could've used Fusion to make Gogeta and destroy Kid Boo with that, but didn't, assumedly because the both of them were too proud for their own good.

Vegeta was dead and he was right there with Goku. IMO Vegeta was taking the possible return of Gohan and Gotenks to the battlefield into account when he made that statement about Goku being the only one capable of fighting Boo. Even when they did come back to life he considered the Genki Dama a much better option than even both of them fighting at once.

Vegeta didn't know Metamorian Fusion and Chibi Boo wasn't going to just sit there waiting for Goku to teach him it. The Potaras were destroyed by the time they realised who they were dealing with, and IMO Gotenks and Chou Gohan were too weak to have any chance of beating Chibi Boo.

If I am not wrong at some point Vegeta replied that they would end up getting absorbed.

Nothing like that was ever stated.

[Rocketman]

Hack off everything after Vegetto defuses and everything falls nicely into place:

Vegetto
Gohan-Buu
Gotenks-Buu
Gohan
Gotenks
Super Buu
Goku/Fat Buu (Goku is unsure if he could've killed Buu, but also admits he didn't really try.)
Vegeta

Throw in the retcon bonanza and you either get:

Vegetto
Kid Buu/Goku's full power (Then why fuse with Vegeta? Hell, why be so terrified that he considers fusing with Hercules?)
Gohan-Buu, etc

or

Vegetto
Gohan-Buu
Gotenks-Buu
Kid Buu/Goku's full power (Then why not attack Piccolo-Buu? Goku was already SS3, right next to him, there's no Vegeta around, and Goku's alive again explicitly there to assist Gohan.)
Gohan, etc

or the way I prefer,

Vegetto
Gohan-Buu
Gotenks-Buu
Gohan
Gotenks
Super Buu
Goku/Kid Buu (Goku admits he was stronger than Fatty)
Fat Buu
Vegeta


Since Vegeta and Mr Buu can survive fighting Kid without being pulverized like a Cell Jr...

[CatouttaHell]

Vegetto
Kid Buu/Goku's full power (Then why fuse with Vegeta? Hell, why be so terrified that he considers fusing with Hercules?)
Gohan-Buu, etc

I think only Chibi Boo is above Boohan, and it's not by very much at all. It kind of mirrors the Cell Juniors as he's an opponent you can fight well against even if he's WAY stronger than you. The only time Chibi Boo seemed to be concerned in the least is when he saw and was fighting back the Genki Dama. Even Goku with all of his power was a funny little joke to him. Meanwhile with Boohan he knew how strong he was and Boohan was about to straight up rip him apart without mercy.

Also, Goku admitted he'd improve a LOT and that after that he wanted to have a rematch with Chibi Boo. And he told Vegeta they should train so the next time they'll be able to beat Boo even one-on-one. That heavily implies a large gap between Chibi Boo and Goku IMO.

And since I might as well post them sooner or later, my current numbers concerning this issue:

Evil Boo
~ Shin Boo - 135,000,000,000,000
~ Bootenks - 285,002,000,000,000
~ Boohan - 345,007,000,000,000

FP SSjin 3 Goku - 250,000,000,000,000

Chou Gohan - 210,000,000,000,000

Chibi Boo
~ Suppressed - 260,000,000,000,000
~ True Power (Against Genki Dama) - 360,000,000,000,000

I don't like having Goku that close to Bootenks either but there should be a HUGE gap between Shin Boo and Chou Gohan because of how shitty of a fighter Gohan is and IMHO there should be at least a noticeable gap between Goku and Gohan due to Vegeta's statement about Goku being the only one capable of fighting Boo.

Kid Buu/Goku's full power (Then why not attack Piccolo-Buu? Goku was already SS3, right next to him, there's no Vegeta around, and Goku's alive again explicitly there to assist Gohan.)
Gohan, etc

Goku still wanted the next generation to take over. It doesn't seem like him to just go "fuck you and your power-up Gohan, I'M here now!" He could've defeated Fat Boo right then and there and yet he backed down and lied just to let the next generation win the battle for him. He was even considering giving Gohan and Gotenks a stab at the mighty Chibi Boo of all people.

Since Vegeta and Mr Buu can survive fighting Kid without being pulverized like a Cell Jr...

No offence dude, but if you base their powers on being able to survive fighting Chibi Boo then you should also consider that Base Vegeta is near SSjin 2 Vegeta because he took quite a beating from Chibi Boo and survived. It mirrors the Cell Junior situation where Piccolo was holding his own just like SSjin Vegeta and Trunks despite the fact that he was most likely below even Initial Semi-Perfect Cell and should've gotten one-shotted IMO. It's really hard to tell how strong someone is just by their performance against Chibi Boo.

[Rocketman]

I think only Chibi Boo is above Boohan, and it's not by very much at all. It kind of mirrors the Cell Juniors as he's an opponent you can fight well against even if he's WAY stronger than you. The only time Chibi Boo seemed to be concerned in the least is when he saw and was fighting back the Genki Dama. Even Goku with all of his power was a funny little joke to him. Meanwhile with Boohan he knew how strong he was and Boohan was about to straight up rip him apart without mercy.

So why don't they try to use the Dance if Kid Buu is stronger than the Buu that forced Vegeta to agree to fuse forever with Goku?

Vegeta does know the Dance, by the way. He tells Goku he does inside Buu.

I don't like having Goku that close to Bootenks either but there should be a HUGE gap between Shin Boo and Chou Gohan because of how shitty of a fighter Gohan is and IMHO there should be at least a noticeable gap between Goku and Gohan due to Vegeta's statement about Goku being the only one capable of fighting Boo.

Vegeta never saw Mystic Gohan. He didn't know Buu had absorbed the kids and Piccolo, so obviously he's not going to consider SS2 Gohan of any help.

He could've defeated Fat Boo right then and there and yet he backed down and lied just to let the next generation win the battle for him.

Because he was dead. He outright says it's because he doesn't belong in the living world anymore. That no longer applies when he faces Piccolo-Buu.

He was even considering giving Gohan and Gotenks a stab at the mighty Chibi Boo of all people.

Which is only significant if you think Kid Buu is actually a threat to them.

[CatouttaHell]

So why don't they try to use the Dance if Kid Buu is stronger than the Buu that forced Vegeta to agree to fuse forever with Goku?

Vegeta does know the Dance, by the way. He tells Goku he does inside Buu.

Because of stupid Saiya-jin pride. And all Vegeta said was that he saw it from Otherworld, that doesn't mean he knows it and can do it. Goten and Trunks saw it done twice and they didn't just hop up and instantly do it perfectly or whatever. Chibi Boo wouldn't just sit there and let them practice either. And by the time they realised Chibi Boo's power the Potaras were all crushed.

Vegeta never saw Mystic Gohan. He didn't know Buu had absorbed the kids and Piccolo, so obviously he's not going to consider SS2 Gohan of any help.

Vegeta sensed Boohan's power and he sensed Shin Boo's power after Gohan's power was removed from him. That alone was enough to get the point across to him.

Because he was dead. He outright says it's because he doesn't belong in the living world anymore. That no longer applies when he faces Piccolo-Buu.

He still would've wanted Gohan to finish what he started. Why would he steal the fight out from under Gohan's nose when he could've still easily won? That's not very Goku-like IMO.