Did Gohan lose the Super Saiyan form?

[Bussani]

The main reason GT isn't considered canon by the masses is because they hate it.

Oh stop it. Doesn't anyone understand how canon works? If you want to define a canon that includes GT, that's fine. If someone else wants to define one that doesn't, that's okay too.

[CatouttaHell]

Oh stop it. Doesn't anyone understand how canon works? If you want to define a canon that includes GT, that's fine. If someone else wants to define one that doesn't, that's okay too.

I don't care about that and I agree with you. I'm mainly just tired of people who claim GT cannot be canon and that anybody who considers it canon is automatically wrong.

[Kaboom]

I fully understand the vehement desire to not include GT in any sort of main or even personal "canon." It's enjoyable and kind of fun in its own way, but when it comes to including it in any sort of coherent or well-structured story... It'd be like willingly dumping a barrel of toxic sludge into your freshly-filtered and sparkly-clean swimming pool.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Many people think that GT's not canon to the manga because it's an official continuation to the anime, and many things in the anime and GT itself didn't happen in the manga. The main reason GT isn't considered canon by the masses isn't because they hate it. It's because, for a variety of reasons, it actually can't work canonically with the manga. Things like movie villains, villains appearing in Hell with their bodies, etc.

[Casual Matt]

Okay, I am once again going to say what I truly believe to be the facts of Dragon Ball canonicity.

There's Manga Canon and then there's Anime Canon.

The Manga Canon contains the manga. That's pretty much it.

The Anime Canon contains the Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, and Dragon Ball GT TV series, some of the movies (eg DBZ Movie 1), and the TV Specials.

I suppose you could look at this as levels of canonicity (such as is used in the Star Wars franchise) and say that they can both be considered, but whenever a contradiction is found, go with the manga. Although I prefer to keep them as seperare entities.

So yeah, GT is Canon to the anime. It does not, however, hold any bearing on Toriyama's original manga.

EDIT: Hmm, this post seems to come off a little confrontational. Sorry, guys.

[lash]

Nothing says Gohan lost the ability to transform. Transforming while in his Boo arc potential maxed Ultimate state most likely wouldn't have made him any bit stronger...if not somewhat weaker due to stamina.

15 years later... that maxed out potential that was brought out had likely reverted a decent amount being inactive. Using SSJ would be beneficial now.

[hleV]

Gohan tried to transform into SSJ. But all he did was unlock the powers of SSJ in his normal state. I'm pretty sure he can't transform since he IS transformed in some way.

[lash]

He tried to transform into his SSJ state...but instead transformed into his Ultimate state. Which is like his new "base/normal"
state, with slight physical changes and a massive power boost.

He never tried transforming into his SSJ state again while in his new base-Ultimate state. Which brings up the question if he truly could.

[Rocketman]

If he could, he would've when Buu nearly killed him.

[GamingBuddha]

If he could, he would've when Buu nearly killed him.

But nothing is said about whether or not he would be able to again or why that happened. Also, the Daizenshuu seems to indicate that he might still have the ability to:

Even without becoming a Super Saiyan, he has power surpassing Gotenks.

[Bussani]

Also, the Daizenshuu seems to indicate that he might still have the ability to:

Even without becoming a Super Saiyan, he has power surpassing Gotenks.

I don't see how that quote implies that. It's no different to Goku saying, "He's this strong even without transforming?? I didn't know that was possible!" (which is roughly what he said right after "Ultimate Gohan" brought out his power).

[NeoKING]

Also, the Daizenshuu seems to indicate that he might still have the ability to:

Even without becoming a Super Saiyan, he has power surpassing Gotenks.

I don't see how that quote implies that. It's no different to Goku saying, "He's this strong even without transforming?? I didn't know that was possible!" (which is roughly what he said right after "Ultimate Gohan" brought out his power).

I can. "Even without becoming a Super Saiyan" implies that he can become a Super Saiyan, he's just really tough without having to even become one.

[Fox666]

If Gohan could transform, wouldn't he have after Evil Boo absorbed Gotenks?

[Super Vegito]

His full power was unlocked in his base form. He doesn't transform because it will him give no benefit at all.

It's like having maxed out stats, then trying to increase them (Super Saiyan), you just can't. It's already maxed out.

[Bussani]

"Even without becoming a Super Saiyan" implies that he can become a Super Saiyan

It...just doesn't. Does or does Gohan not have power surpassing Gotenks even without becoming a Super Saiyan? Yes, yes he does. That's all it says. There's no implying about whether he still has the form or not in that little quote.

[Kroni_Hunter]

"Even without becoming a Super Saiyan" implies that he can become a Super Saiyan

It...just doesn't. Does or does Gohan not have power surpassing Gotenks even without becoming a Super Saiyan? Yes, yes he does. That's all it says. There's no implying about whether he still has the form or not in that little quote.

I agree with you, sort of. You can't logically infer that SSJ is reachable just by seeing "even without becoming a Super Saiyan". It is, however, suggestive of it and was probably not the best word choice if SSJ was meant to not be reachable. For example, saying "cereal is good even without milk" is suggestive that some people would use milk with their cereal. But you would never hear someone say "cereal is good even without garlic" because garlic is not something that would be included in cereal.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

But you would never hear someone say "cereal is good even without garlic" because garlic is not something that would be included in cereal.

Speak for yourself, garlic is good on everything. Not to mention it is necessary when eating Count Chocula...
Okay, i'm done now...

[Bussani]

I agree with you, sort of. You can't logically infer that SSJ is reachable just by seeing "even without becoming a Super Saiyan". It is, however, suggestive of it and was probably not the best word choice if SSJ was meant to not be reachable. For example, saying "cereal is good even without milk" is suggestive that some people would use milk with their cereal. But you would never hear someone say "cereal is good even without garlic" because garlic is not something that would be included in cereal.

It's not that I can't see how someone would take the quote that way, but it makes sense even if we assume he couldn't transform anymore. I don't think your example is really comparable, though; a closer example would be to say that "cereal is good even without milk" implies that you could put milk on the cereal, which isn't necessarily true. You might be out of milk.

To be honest, Goku asking Elder Kaioshin if they should be Super Saiyan before fusing is more suggestive, but I'm not sure if it was worded in the same way in Japanese. Strength Checker was inconclusive about it:

Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P1.3
Context: Goku asks if he should become a Super Saiyan before merging with the Potara, and Elder Kaioshin advices against it
Elder Kaioshin: “If you’re going to become a Super Saiyan, it’s better to do it after merging. But anyway, even without doing that, you’ll probably be plee~~eenty. The Potara’s power is just that amazing!”

[Xyex]

I can. "Even without becoming a Super Saiyan" implies that he can become a Super Saiyan, he's just really tough without having to even become one.

Yeah, no. "Even without becoming a Super Saiyan" implies that without any transformation he's still strong. It says absolutely nothing about his ability to transform.

Gohan simply can't do it anymore. Show me an SSJ who, while in SSJ, can turn SSJ. You can't do it. Gohan is already transformed into the Ultimate state. There is no more SSJ, there is only Ultimate, and he's in it. You can't go into what you're in.

And all of this 'he didn't transform because he's already maxed so it wouldn't boost his power' stuff is also ridiculous. Gohan is maxed in his current form. If he had a transformation, that would be a new form with its own maximum power, greater than his current power. Period. Thus, if he could transform, he would have, because it would have made him stronger.

[lash]

And all of this 'he didn't transform because he's already maxed so it wouldn't boost his power' stuff is also ridiculous. Gohan is maxed in his current form. If he had a transformation, that would be a new form with its own maximum power, greater than his current power. Period. Thus, if he could transform, he would have, because it would have made him stronger.

Another form or not, it's still your own power.
Gohan's own full power was brought out beyond his limits. Not the limits of his normal state or a specific transformation, the limits of Gohan's overall power.
Transforming into another form of his own power wouldn't have done anything powerwise, since all his power & more was already brought out and placed into his Ultimate transformed state.