Just how powerful is Gohan by the end of the Z story?

[rereboy]

Of course. I was just disagreeing with the statement that Goku achieved all of his power through sheer effort. Gohan had more "haxes" but had his share.

[Son_Gohan]

You said "Goku achieved his strength through his own sheer effort".

The zenkais and SSJ1 didn't require any effort from Goku. They just happened.

And those factors were the largest factor in why Goku went from around 80000 to many millions in power in the freeza saga.

Also, I disagree that the holy water was insignificant. It was said that it would release Goku's potential. So, its entirely possible that it made Goku much more stronger immediately, which made him able to beat Piccolo Daimao, and that it also made it possible for Goku to have higher gains in his future trainings than he would have otherwise, since his potential, or some of it, had been released.

So, like I said, by the logic of achieving strength through sheer effort, the strongest would be Tenshinhan, since he was the strongest character to achieve his own power without any "hax" whatsoever.

Well he did, I was speaking in the context of the manga's closing volumes, when their powers would be at their highest and where Toriyama's memory would've been freshest.

Those examples you gave are miniscule in comparison to what he achieved later on, and not really relevant at that point in the story. Just for argument sake, most of them were due to his own efforts from training anyways; the Super God Water was said to kill those whose power wasn't high enough to overcome its poison, and the zenkais he gained on the way to Namek were only because of pushing himself so hard in training, which raised his power high enough to surpass the Saiyan limits and opened the possibility of achieving Super Saiyan in the first place.

[rereboy]

Well, the zenkais he did while training "only" pushed him up to 90 000, which he could multiply at most by 20 with kaioken which would give him, at the time, a power of 1 800 000.

Then, he simply got hurt because of Ginyu, and when he returned he had to be much more powerful than 1 000 000 without using kaioken (given his fight with Freeza). And then he simply got angry and got an haxed power up of x50 (SSJ) which probably made him stronger than 100 000 000.

So, even if you think the holy water is minuscule (even though he would die at the hands of Piccolo Daimao without it), I don't know how you can consider his progress in Namek minuscule.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Goku was stated by the narrator to be repeatedly abusing the healing boosts during his training on the way to Namek, even if he wasn't fully aware of what was happening.

But en route to and on Namek is the last window of time where he had the luxury of depending on those. All the power he gained after that -during the three years before the Androids, in the Room of Spirit and Time, during the seven years he spent dead and gained SSj2 and SSj3- All that was by his own training efforts.

Well, I think that Goku only achieved Super Saiyan 3 because he was training in the afterlife, where time didn't matter and SSj3 didn't sap as much energy as if you were alive. Both Goku and Vegeta agree that Vegeta trained harder than Goku, and yet Vegeta didn't achieve Super Saiyan 3.

[hleV]

Well, I think that Goku only achieved Super Saiyan 3 because he was training in the afterlife, where time didn't matter and SSj3 didn't sap as much energy as if you were alive. Both Goku and Vegeta agree that Vegeta trained harder than Goku, and yet Vegeta didn't achieve Super Saiyan 3.

He trained harder, but his training conditions weren't as good as Goku's. I don't buy that crap that Goku's just more talented, he just gets better training, that's all. And while I agree that Super Saiyan 3 is hard to achieve, I still see Vegeta reaching the form after some more training. On Earth. Alive.

Vegeta possibly didn't yet have enough power for that after his 7-year-long training, but if he had achieved Goku's level of power, he might just have done it. Has Vegeta kept his powers that were unlocked by Babidi after being resurrected?

[Piccolo Daimao]

Well, I think that Goku only achieved Super Saiyan 3 because he was training in the afterlife, where time didn't matter and SSj3 didn't sap as much energy as if you were alive. Both Goku and Vegeta agree that Vegeta trained harder than Goku, and yet Vegeta didn't achieve Super Saiyan 3.

He trained harder, but his training conditions weren't as good as Goku's. I don't buy that crap that Goku's just more talented, he just gets better training, that's all. And while I agree that Super Saiyan 3 is hard to achieve, I still see Vegeta reaching the form after some more training. On Earth. Alive.

Yeah, that's what I mean. Vegeta trained harder, but he didn't have the advantage of the afterlife.

[SylentEcho]

End of Z meaning the time when Oob appears? I think Gohan would be weaker than both Vegeta and Goku because he would have stopped training after the Boo fight.

[Xyex]

Stronger. 80% stronger during the Buu arc and still 25% stronger 10 years later at the actual end of the series. That's about where I've got them on my list, anyway.

[Michsi]

Yeah, that's what I mean. Vegeta trained harder, but he didn't have the advantage of the afterlife.

Vegeta states himself that Goku is better than him (and no I'm not referring to to his Your Number 1 speech at the end) One of the reasons Vegeta chose to let himself be influenced by Babidi's spell was because he realized he would never catch up to Goku.

The powergap between them happened way before Goku got the advantage of the afterlife. The difference might not have been as great as they are now had Goku not died, but he would still have been above Vegeta in power. Because of the ROSAT training and Vegeta's words, I am certain of that.

As for Gohan, I still believe that potential-wise he is the strongest but I am pretty conviced that by the end of Z , as in 10 years after Buu, Goku could wipe the floor with him. Maybe Vegeta and Piccolo too, as long as he doesn't get angry.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Yeah, that's what I mean. Vegeta trained harder, but he didn't have the advantage of the afterlife.

Vegeta states himself that Goku is better than him (and no I'm not referring to to his Your Number 1 speech at the end) One of the reasons Vegeta chose to let himself be influenced by Babidi's spell was because he realized he would never catch up to Goku.

The powergap between them happened way before Goku got the advantage of the afterlife. The difference might not have been as great as they are now had Goku not died, but he would still have been above Vegeta in power. Because of the ROSAT training and Vegeta's words, I am certain of that.

That's right, Vegeta did say that Goku was "a greater genius" than him, but I still think that the afterlife enabled Goku to get that much further ahead than Vegeta and achieve SSj3. If Goku had been training on Earth, Vegeta may've caught up to Goku or even gotten stronger than Goku, like he did in the early Cell arc (which I believe was a combination of the gravity training of up to 300G, his driving force to become stronger than Goku, achieve SSj and the fact that he actually had something to be training towards, i.e. defeating the Androids meant to kill him).

And just to note, the advantage of training in the afterlife appeared to have only been noted when Super Saiyan 3 failed against Kid Boo, to which Goku mentioned that it was because SSj3 was only meant for the afterlife and it took too much energy to sustain in the living world. So who is Vegeta to say that afterlife training would be better than his? He's only ever been to the afterlife in the form of a puffy little cloud and wouldn't get as far as Kaio's planet to feel x10 gravity, if he could even feel it without a body. And after he died in the Boo arc, he remained at Enma's place watching the fight, and no enhanced gravity was ever noted there when Goku came there - only on Kaio's planet.

I think the "greater genius" part comes from, mainly, the fact that Goku had found out the best way of going beyond Super Saiyan - and that was just by staying in regular Super Saiyan, rather than just trying to become stronger and insufficiently waste ki in battle. Before that, both Goku and Vegeta were just abusing Zenkais, and Goku just got there first. And Vegeta doesn't yet know about the advantage of afterlife training.

On-topic, by the end of Z (when Oob appears), I think that Gohan was already so far ahead of Goku 10 years prior that Goku couldn't catch up to him, especially with SSj3's instability in the living world. I believe that SSj3 can't ever be mastered when you're alive, only potentially when you're dead. So, excluding Vegetto (who didn't even exist then), Gohan was the strongest hero by the end of Z.

[Xane]

Wait, you're talking after the Buu stuff? Hell no. He couldn't be.

[hleV]

Saiyan arc: Vegeta > Goku

• Even though Goku went through an incredible training of Kaio's, Vegeta was still naturally stronger as the best of elite class Saiyans.

Freeza arc: Goku > Vegeta

• Goku possibly received a near-death powerup after his fight with Vegeta and then went through an increased gravity training. Someone also told that Goku had near-death powerups during that training, but I'm not sure if that's true.
• Later Goku received another, super mega ultra near-death powerup, for, most likely, plot reasons and left Vegeta far behind.

Android arc: Vegeta > Goku

• Even though Goku had two partners to train with, Vegeta surpassed Goku due to his harsh training. It's unclear if those so called near-death powerups were involved into this but Piccolo said that Vegeta had most likely surpassed Goku at that time. Not by much, though.

Cell arc: Goku > Vegeta

• Goku came with a better plan for training and mastered Super Saiyan form along with Gohan.
• Vegeta, after realizing what training Goku and Gohan went through, mastered the form himself (at least I believe so). He didn't get stronger than Goku because he went into the Room of Spirit and Time alone the second time.

Boo arc: Goku > Vegeta

• Goku had better conditions for training in the afterlife for 7 years. Even though Vegeta trained harder than Goku, he was unable to catch up to him.

So, I don't see how Goku is more talented or just better than Vegeta. I only agree that he came up with a better plan for training in the Room of Spirit and Time. Yes, Goku may be a greater genius than Vegeta, but it's also possible that Vegeta called Goku #1 because Goku always ended up superior to Vegeta, without taking into account how exactly did that happen.


Now, 10 years is a lot of time for improvement, and also a lot of time for your powers to fade away if not training. So, considering how much people had improved during much shorter periods of time in the past, I'd say Goku and Vegeta are stronger than Gohan at the end of Dragon Ball. Not necessary stronger than Gohan when he fought Evil Boo, but than the one after 10 years of being a slacker.

[dbgtFO]

Freeza arc: Goku > Vegeta

• Someone also told that Goku had near-death powerups during that training, but I'm not sure if that's true.

It's true. It's stated by the narrator, that Goku somehow knew that he was getting NDPUs and then abused it so much, that he only ended up with 3 Senzus afterwards.

[Kaboom]

It's true. It's stated by the narrator, that Goku somehow knew that he was getting NDPUs and then abused it so much, that he only ended up with 3 Senzus afterwards.

Really? I always thought the narrator said that Goku didn't know what he was doing. Viz's translation leaves it vague, though ("whether he realizes it or not").

[dbgtFO]

It's true. It's stated by the narrator, that Goku somehow knew that he was getting NDPUs and then abused it so much, that he only ended up with 3 Senzus afterwards.

Really? I always thought the narrator said that Goku didn't know what he was doing. Viz's translation leaves it vague, though ("whether he realizes it or not").

Oh you're right, it is a lot more vauge in the Strength Checker as well:

Narrator: “Goku had continued this insane pattern of pushing his body and ki to the brink of death, then refreshing himself again by eating a senzu. The 7 senzu he received from Lord Karin have already fallen to only 3…However, though this training is outrageous, perhaps Goku has somehow realized the Saiyan characteristic of their strength increasing when they overcome death…”

I was thinking about my localized version, where it's a little less vague: "Goku has apparently realized etc."
But yeah in the original it's like in Viz's.

[Piccolo Daimao]

It's true. It's stated by the narrator, that Goku somehow knew that he was getting NDPUs and then abused it so much, that he only ended up with 3 Senzus afterwards.

Really? I always thought the narrator said that Goku didn't know what he was doing. Viz's translation leaves it vague, though ("whether he realizes it or not").

Well, it's revealed later that Goku apparently did realize what he was doing, since he mentions to Vegeta that he should be able to defeat Jheese now that he's recovered from near-death, to which Vegeta replies, "So you knew...".

And I think, in this case, Viz made a wise adaptation of that line. After a while, Goku would've realized that it wasn't just training at 20G-100G that made him so ridiculously strong in only a couple of days.

[InfernalVegito]

In my view Ultimate Gohan was the strongest unfused character when the old Kai set his hidden powers free, i.e. in the Boo arc. I am uncertain whether Goku might be stronger than Gohan at the end of Z though, because a) Gohan did not train anymore in the following 10 years of freedom, while Goku did and b) Gohan went SSJ all the time again in GT. Maybe they thought that Gohan lost a certain amount of his power in the 10 years after Boo and that's why they decided to make him go SSJ in GT again.

[Rocketman]

Maybe they thought that Gohan lost a certain amount of his power in the 10 years after Boo and that's why they decided to make him go SSJ in GT again.

You're giving Toei too much credit. Mystic Gohan would've made Goku worthless, so they destroyed him. See also: Gotenks.

[Xyex]

Maybe they thought that Gohan lost a certain amount of his power in the 10 years after Boo and that's why they decided to make him go SSJ in GT again.

You're giving Toei too much credit. Mystic Gohan would've made Goku worthless, so they destroyed him. See also: Gotenks.

That's about the gist of it. I've always pictured the early GT planning as something like this:

Toei Exec: So, new series. I love Goku, everyone loves Goku, so Goku will be the hero.
Toei Writer: But Gohan is stronger than him now because his hidden power was unlocked.
TE: So we relock it. Give him back Super Saiya-jin, pretend that never happened.
TW: That'll take time to explain....
TE: Explain? The unlock never happened, there's nothing to explain!
TW: Alright. What about villains?
TE: Everyone on Earth is weak, lets go into space. Space is full of bad guys thousands of times stronger than Buu.
TW: Uhm, no. Freeza was the strongest one in space....
TE: New series, new rules. Freeza was a weakling. Now everyone and his mother is at least as strong as Buu.
TW: That's going to be a lot of heavy use of Super Saiya-jin 3.....
TE: Super Saiya-jin 3? What for! Goku's the strongest in the universe now WITHOUT transforming!
TW: *sweat drops*
TE: Infact! Goku, without transforming, could KILL Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegetto by sneezing on him! Why? Because he's GOKU!
TW: These powers are going to be absurd....
TE: Nah, we can make the transformations weaker. 2x all across the board. Except for Super Saiya-jin 4.
TW: 4? But there's only 3....
TE: Not anymore. Now there's 4, and 4 is awesome. 4 is 1,000,000,000x stronger than 3.

>.>

[Thanos]

I think Goku and Vegeta are stronger than Gohan, by the end. Goku and Vegeta always train, and Gohan became a slacker again and lost his Mystic form. Not to mention, like others have said, it is 5-10 years of nonstop training on the part of Goku/Vegeta, the latter of which has probably mastered SSJ3 himself.