Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Senzu_Bean]

Out of curiousity, where does the Daizenshuu say they're equal?

The Daizenshuu doesn't exactly say they're equal but in every instant where they refer to the transformation from Innocent to Evil there isn't a single mention his power changed. For example:

"The evil portion of Buu split off, and by absorbing the good Buu, was transmuted into a completely evil Buu."

Nothing related to power, contrary to when he reverted from Evil Buu to Pure Buu:

"Inside Buu, Goku and Vegeta discover the original Buu. Because they cut him loose, Buu exhibits enough power to annihilate the Earth."

[CatouttaHell]

The Daizenshuu doesn't exactly say they're equal but in every instant where they refer to the transformation from Innocent to Evil there isn't a single mention his power changed. For example:

"The evil portion of Buu split off, and by absorbing the good Buu, was transmuted into a completely evil Buu."

Ah, good observation. I'm intrigued by how Piccolo just mentioned that Boo became evil and got a body better suited for battle too. I mean, who cares about what Boo's body looks like if he just suddenly got a huge power boost? I'm going to have to think about this. This may be by far the best way to make the whole Pure Boo > Shin Boo thing work numerically.

Nothing related to power, contrary to when he reverted from Evil Buu to Pure Buu:

"Inside Buu, Goku and Vegeta discover the original Buu. Because they cut him loose, Buu exhibits enough power to annihilate the Earth."

Yeah I know that quote. That's great proof that Chibi Boo > Shin Boo. I mean it's outright saying "Shin Boo powered up when he became Chibi Boo." It makes no sense mathematically too. If Shin Boo is a lot weaker than Buff Boo, and Buff Boo is literally just Chibi Boo with a guy who is weaker than an insignificant SSjin 2 or SSjin Gohan, then Shin Boo > Chibi Boo is mathematically impossible.

[Senzu_Bean]

Yep, pretty much. I remember in the old days when I wasn't active in Dragonball fandom (not that I'm that active now days) characters' strength and whatnot are pretty much set in stone. But in the last years everybody start over analyzing the story and make shit up which in my own opinion is ridiculous. I mean, no one in their right mind would say Gohan is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku but today there is the trend to say those who doesn't believe in such thing are wrong, retard and whatever.

[CatouttaHell]

Haha yeah. SSjin 3 Gokū IMO is the most underrated character in the whole series. Half of the stuff I hear about his power I'm convinced is either trolling or from a retarded guy on crack. Some people honest to god think Gohan surpassed Gokū by swinging a sword around for a bit and that Base Gotenks > SSjin 3 Gokū, which is just LOL. I like to go by reactions. SSjin Gotenks got no reaction at all, Boo just got a "wait THIS is Boo, huh?" reaction, while SSjin 3 Gokū had everybody losing their minds. People like to come up with ridiculous "haxes" in the whole Boo Arc, and almost nowhere else, for some reason.

It seems to be a new thing too, back in the MFG days I don't remember any of this. The whole "Gotenks got 5 billion times stronger from a week in the RoSaT," "Gohan surpassed Fat Boo in SSjin from swinging a sword around," etc madness seems to have just sprung up very recently. The whole Base Saiya-jins > Piccolo thing has been around for forever but at least there's evidence for it beyond a random statement misinterpreted to hell and back.

EDIT: That and the whole "IGNORE THE GUIDEBOOKS, THEY CONTRADICT MY VIEW AND THUS AREN'T CANON" view that seems prevalent nowadays.

[rereboy]

Yep, pretty much. I remember in the old days when I wasn't active in Dragonball fandom (not that I'm that active now days) characters' strength and whatnot are pretty much set in stone. But in the last years everybody start over analyzing the story and make shit up which in my own opinion is ridiculous. I mean, no one in their right mind would say Gohan is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku but today there is the trend to say those who doesn't believe in such thing are wrong, retard and whatever.

Even in the first time I watched the Dragon Ball anime, my impression was that Gohan was stronger than Goku. I kept yelling, as a kid, "why don't you go get Gohan? He is stronger than you are, Goku!".

And the manga only confirmed that idea for me.

So... Its basically interpretation, not the result of over analyzing the story.

[CatouttaHell]

Even in the first time I watched the Dragon Ball anime, my impression was that Gohan was stronger than Goku. I kept yelling, as a kid, "why don't you go get Gohan? He is stronger than you are, Goku!".

And the manga only confirmed that idea for me.

So... Its basically interpretation, not the result of over analyzing the story.

Funny, from what I've seen the vast majority of people who have simply read or watched the series once and don't care enough to over-analyse it think Chibi Boo > SSjin 3 Goku > Chou Gohan > SSjin 3 Gotenks (which is what I also think, despite being a hardcore fan.)

The ONLY real evidence for any other way is Goku being scared of Shin Boo, claiming Gotenks would be stronger than him, and numbers not correlating. For the first, I think that statement can be safely ignored because everything makes far more sense without it, just like everybody ignores Kaioshin's statements because they imply Base Vegeta > Pui-Pui > SSjin 2 Gohan. Not to mention they have nothing to do with Shin Boo's power. Shin Boo says Goku and Vegeta are smaller than fleas then soon follows up with saying they can't beat him because of the way they are now.

For the second, there's no way in hell SSjin Gotenks > SSjin 3 Goku. That's just an out of control boost that the Daizenshuu and even the manga contradict. Nobody is surprised in the least at SSjin Gotenks but they practically have a heart attack at SSjin 3 Goku. Not to mention the Goku that said Gotenks would be greater than him later admitted he was bullshitting through that whole little speech.

And as for correlation, you have to realise Toriyama doesn't over-analyse this series with numbers, etc either. The Daizenshuu says SSjin 3 brings the hidden power of a Saiya-jin to its limits so that doesn't imply a consistent boost at all. Unless you think that a Nappa who had his hidden power drawn to its limits would get the same power increase as a Gohan who had his hidden power drawn to its limits. It's most likely talking about temporary limits, and Gotenks probably plowed right through his temporary limits from his RoSaT training, which boosted him up from SSjin to SSjin 3 in days. Just my opinion though.

[Rocketman]

no one in their right mind would say Gohan is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku

I would, and do. Why would Goku be so desperate to fuse that he nearly throws the Potara to Hercules if he can kill kid Buu who's 'stronger' than Gohan-Buu?

The Daizenshuu says SSjin 3 brings the hidden power of a Saiya-jin to its limits

So did Elder Kai's powerup, and Gohan has far more hidden power than Goku.

[CatouttaHell]

I would, and do. Why would Goku be so desperate to fuse that he nearly throws the Potara to Hercules if he can kill kid Buu who's 'stronger' than Gohan-Buu?

That makes no sense. Who's saying Chibi Boo > Gohan-Boo?

So did Elder Kai's powerup, and Gohan has far more hidden power than Goku.

Considering SSjin 3 Goku is stronger than Gohan, I'd say he doesn't.

[rereboy]

Considering SSjin 3 Goku is stronger than Gohan, I'd say he doesn't.

I get why fans believe that regarding the anime, even though I never interpreted it that way.

However, regarding the manga, I don't get why someone would believe that, considering that all the stuff, like the narrator saying that Kid Buu is the strongest Buu, and such, are gone, while stuff like Goku saying that Super Buu will kill them (Goku and Vegeta) if they don't fuse and that Piccolo-Buu can by killed by Gohan, remain.

(Goku's remark regarding Piccolo-Buu is particulary interesting because, if Goku is stronger than Gohan, that would mean that SSJ3 Goku is much stronger than Super Buu with Piccolo, Goten and Trunks absorbed.

Goku clearly states that Gohan is stronger than that form of Buu, so, if he is stronger than Gohan, he must be much stronger than that Buu.

Its also very interesting that he chose to say that Gohan can kill him when Buu powers down to Piccolo-Buu, instead of just saying "I can kill you now!" and do just that. Instead he makes the point of saying that Gohan can kill him now and he even powers down.

And later, inside of Buu, he clearly states that he and Vegeta will be killed by Super Buu if they don't fuse and leave Buu's body. But why? Weren't you much stronger than Super Buu with Piccolo, Goten and Trunks absorbed? And now you are afraid of Super Buu, while you have the help of Vegeta? Very weird indeed...)

But, like I said, its a matter of interpretation. Not all people will agree. And this topic is only for power levels, so it might be better to forget the issue.

[CatouttaHell]

However, regarding the manga, I don't get why someone would believe that, considering that all the stuff, like the narrator saying that Kid Buu is the strongest Buu, and such, are gone, while stuff like Goku saying that Super Buu will kill them (Goku and Vegeta) if they don't fuse and that Piccolo-Buu can by killed by Gohan, remain.

But, like I said, its a matter of interpretation. Not all people will agree. And this topic is only for power levels, so it might be better to forget the issue.

Well the quote Senzu_Bean posted from the Daizenshuu that is almost impossible to interpret as anything but "because Shin Boo became Chibi Boo, he powered up greatly" is great proof of this IMO. Regarding Piccolo-Boo, I think it's because Gokū wanted Gohan to take care of the whole thing. It doesn't seem Gokū-like to go "okay I'm here now, fuck off Gohan, your chance to remain the hero is gone." Most people say Chibi Boo appeared to create a weaker Boo that Gokū could fight, I personally think he was created to be a stronger Boo so Gokū couldn't just pass the fight on to someone else like he kept doing the whole arc.

Also, regarding Gokū's statement about Shin Boo, remember they were smaller than fleas inside him. Shin Boo even outright says "not the way you are now" almost immediately after saying they're smaller than fleas. Shin Boo had the advantage in every possible way. Not only were they both incomprehensibly smaller than him but they were INSIDE HIM, surrounded by nothing but him. Who really knows? Vegetto was so goddamn powerful that he defied magic and survived Boo's candy beam. Maybe Gokū assumed Vegetto could pull off a win and own Boo despite how tiny he'd probably be. Note he didn't say a word about Gohan, just about Potara. If it was power that was the issue he'd be wise to just wait for Gohan to wake up instead of going through the trouble of somehow obtaining another pair of Potara, convincing the stubborn as hell Vegeta yet again, and then permanently fusing with him, this time for good.

I dunno, this forum seems to just really hate power discussions and we only have two real threads we're allowed to discuss 'em in at all, so I don't see why not to discuss it here. It's a comparison of two characters so it counts as a battle power discussion I guess?

[rereboy]

I've pretty much said everything that I wanted regarding the subject in my last post, which I edited.

You're right, this isn't the place for this so I won't continue the discussion here. Besides, i've already discussed the subject many times in the past

[Rocketman]

That makes no sense. Who's saying Chibi Boo > Gohan-Boo?

...you? Several times.

Considering SSjin 3 Goku is stronger than Gohan, I'd say he doesn't.

I have trouble buying that a single transformation (an transformation of only x4 at that) punches Goku up from equal to Majin Vegeta to dancing on Mystic Gohan's head; skipping over fusion, fusion plus that same transformation, a magical god-given power unlocking and two Buu fusions.

It doesn't seem Gokū-like to go "okay I'm here now, fuck off Gohan, your chance to remain the hero is gone."

But that's what Goku has done...repeatedly. He never lets someone weaker than him fight in his place, the one exception being when he was dead and burning up his last seconds on Earth and convinced he needed to set up a new protector for when he could no longer step in ever again.

That condition no longer applies when he arrives to help Gohan.

[CatouttaHell]

...you? Several times.

All I'm arguing now is Chibi Boo > Chou Gohan/Shin Boo. I mean I'm not sure about where Chibi Boo stands. I think he could be above Gohan-Boo but I am completely undecided on that matter and I'm not even going to bother pushing Chibi Boo > Gohan-Boo anyhow. People think I'm crazy as it is.

I have trouble buying that a single transformation (an transformation of only x4 at that) punches Goku up from equal to Majin Vegeta to dancing on Mystic Gohan's head; skipping over fusion, fusion plus that same transformation, a magical god-given power unlocking and two Buu fusions.

I have Gokū's SSjin 3 as just the tiny SEG 4x multiplier. I simply think Gotenks is an overrated pile of crap. The Daizenshuu says "As a result, Gotenks leveled up so much that his strength surpassed Vegeta and the others." Depending on how you view that, it could mean Gotenks surpassed Vegeta-tachi ONLY because he leveled up/transformed.

But that's what Goku has done...repeatedly. He never lets someone weaker than him fight in his place, the one exception being when he was dead and burning up his last seconds on Earth and convinced he needed to set up a new protector for when he could no longer step in ever again.

That condition no longer applies when he arrives to help Gohan.

Gohan was more than enough to beat Shin Boo, Gokū had no reason to steal the fight from under his nose. His whole plan was to let the next generation take his place, and even though he had unexpectedly returned to life, there was a situation where his own son could easily defeat the strongest guy who had ever attacked the Earth. I don't see why he'd steal the fight from him just because he was stronger. Gohan probably REALLY wanted to get revenge on Boo after all that had happened while he was Gotenks-Boo (and before Gohan even arrived for that matter.)

[Rocketman]

I simply think Gotenks is an overrated pile of crap.

And I can respect that, but Gotenks did survive fighting Buu in base. At the very least that puts him ahead of Piccolo, who's ahead of base Goku.

[Bussani]

The Daizenshuu doesn't exactly say they're equal but in every instant where they refer to the transformation from Innocent to Evil there isn't a single mention his power changed. For example:

"The evil portion of Buu split off, and by absorbing the good Buu, was transmuted into a completely evil Buu."

Ah, good observation. I'm intrigued by how Piccolo just mentioned that Boo became evil and got a body better suited for battle too. I mean, who cares about what Boo's body looks like if he just suddenly got a huge power boost? I'm going to have to think about this. This may be by far the best way to make the whole Pure Boo > Shin Boo thing work numerically.

Well, the Daizenshuu may say that, but there's this line in the manga.

Chapter: 488 (DBZ 294), P5.5-6
Trunks: “Huh!? That’s Majin Boo!?”
Goten: “He-he really has changed…”
Piccolo: “It’s not just his appearance…Everything about him is definitely greater than before…”

Nothing related to power, contrary to when he reverted from Evil Buu to Pure Buu:

"Inside Buu, Goku and Vegeta discover the original Buu. Because they cut him loose, Buu exhibits enough power to annihilate the Earth."

Yeah I know that quote. That's great proof that Chibi Boo > Shin Boo. I mean it's outright saying "Shin Boo powered up when he became Chibi Boo."

There's another way to take it: Buu was crazy enough to not hold back when they cut the other Buu loose (thus he "exhibited enough power to destroy the Earth"). I mean, if you read it the way you read it, is that implying that Buu didn't have the power to destroy the Earth before becoming Kid Buu? Destroying the Earth should be child's play at that point in the story.

I'm not trying to cause an argument; just trying to offer an alternative point of view.

[Kaboom]

Remember guys, this isn't a place to debate the validity or theory of power comparisons. It's a place to show off and get moderate critique on lists and charts and what-not that you've made. So let's try not to let things veer too far off-course towards the former, K?

Now to practice what I preach, I should really get back to work on that revised movies list of mine...

[CatouttaHell]

And I can respect that, but Gotenks did survive fighting Buu in base. At the very least that puts him ahead of Piccolo, who's ahead of base Goku.

It was a gag fight. Don't forget you also have Base Trunks surviving a hit from Shin Boo. Not to mention Gotenks has SSjin 2 and SSjin 3 and Shin Boo is almost on par with his SSjin 3. Would you take it seriously if you saw Base Goku taking hits from Chibi Boo?

There's another way to take it: Buu was crazy enough to not hold back when they cut the other Buu loose (thus he "exhibited enough power to destroy the Earth"). I mean, if you read it the way you read it, is that implying that Buu didn't have the power to destroy the Earth before becoming Kid Buu? Destroying the Earth should be child's play at that point in the story.

I'm not trying to cause an argument; just trying to offer an alternative point of view.

This is going to sound really crazy but it's likely there's a retcon at work here. I mean at first you had 260 Piccolo Daimao bragging he could destroy the world, then 18,000 Vegeta bragging he'd destroy the planet, then 530,000 Freeza DOING it. But it seems that Freeza only destroyed planets by cheating and busting the core. I mean in the Cell and Boo Arcs you had attacks that were worlds above anything Freeza could dream of smashing into the Earth and doing nothing. Fat Boo's Kamehameha destroyed "only" one tenth of it despite a suppressed Perfect Cell's Kamehameha allegedly being enough to destroy all of it.

It doesn't make any logical sense but it appears that the bar is just constantly raised, so to say. Fat Boo's Kamehameha leaving 90% of the Earth intact is just nothing short of nonsense but that's what it appears to be by the Boo Arc.

Remember guys, this isn't a place to debate the validity or theory of power comparisons. It's a place to show off and get moderate critique on lists and charts and what-not that you've made. So let's try not to let things veer too far off-course towards the former, K?

Now to practice what I preach, I should really get back to work on that revised movies list of mine...

Sorry, I just had to get one more post in. Good luck with your list.

[Rocketman]

Would you take it seriously if you saw Base Goku taking hits from Chibi Boo? :P

Since Base Vegeta survived a couple hits from Kid Buu...maybe?

[CatouttaHell]

Since Base Vegeta survived a couple hits from Kid Buu...maybe?

Well either Base Vegeta is made of metal or Chibi Boo just plays around way too much. Even Mr. Satan survived being thrown off by him.

Anyway I'm not saying that I think you're wrong or anything, but I just feel like Pre-SSjin 3 Gotenks vs. Shin Boo is one huge gag scene and shouldn't really be taken seriously. Taking everything in that fight seriously tends to create a Shin Boo > SSjin Gotenks (Post) > Base Gotenks (Post) >>> SSjin Gotenks (Pre) chain, which is in my personal opinion crazy talk.


EDIT: Just to keep this post at least a bit on topic to not anger Kaboom, I updated my Boo Arc levels (scroll down to get to that.) I'm following Senzu_Bean's brilliant idea of Fat Boo = Shin Boo now so the numbers are rather nerfed. I have SSjin 3 Gokū 1.3x stronger than Ultimate Gohan with just a 4x SSjin 3 boost. Trying to gradually move towards better/more accurate terminology as well (Son Goku is now Son Gokū, Boohan is Gohan-Boo, etc.)

Let me know if there's anything you disagree with, etc.

[dbgtFO]

Not going to actually debate anything, I just want to get something cleared up.

Also Base Vegetto should be weaker than Boohan IMO because the moment he appeared Boohan hurled a blast at him and he instantly went SSjin to deflect it. Just my opinion though. Out of curiousity, what's your explanation for Boo getting such a big boost from absorbing South Kaioshin?

I do have Base Vegetto weaker than Evil Buu(Gohan).

Kaioshin power not having a normal effect on him.

I like how you have Mr. Satan at 5. I too believe he's just a normal human. I mean sure he won the Tenkaichi Budokai but IIRC the opponents at the 25th are mainly the same guys he faced last time (that and the Z-Senshi) and they're pretty much pathetic joke characters. Great list overall, man.

Yeah, Mr. Satan is overrated, if you ask me.
Thanks.

Since you're not an anti-Daizenshuu fanboy do you realize that the Daizenshuu clearly contradicts the notion of Saiyans being stronger than Piccolo? It claims Kibito's battle power is high enough to give Gohan a difficult fight as long as he isn't a Super Saiyan and that East Kaioshin is far superior to the Super Namekian Piccolo.

Unless Kibito is stronger than the Kaioshin the Saiyans being stronger than Piccolo isn't true.

I don't understand your argument here. This is what you feel it says right? Gohan < Kibito; Piccolo <<< Kaioshin, therefore Piccolo < Gohan is wrong because Kibito < Kaioshin..? Is that your argument?

How does that invalidate, Gohan being stronger than Piccolo, while Kibito is stronger than both and Kaioshin is far superior to Piccolo, putting him beyond Gohan and Kibito as well? Like this: Piccolo < Gohan < Kibito < Kaioshin.

I am simply not seeing, how those two quotes prove Base Saiyans < Piccolo, so elaboration would be appreciated!

There's another way to take it: Buu was crazy enough to not hold back when they cut the other Buu loose (thus he "exhibited enough power to destroy the Earth"). I mean, if you read it the way you read it, is that implying that Buu didn't have the power to destroy the Earth before becoming Kid Buu? Destroying the Earth should be child's play at that point in the story.

I'm not trying to cause an argument; just trying to offer an alternative point of view.

I pretty much agree with this as well. It's the same thing I said over on Neoseeker. Like I also said over there, Daizenshuu 2's Special Attacks Section says this:
"Majin Buu had lost his reason. Using super power, he randomly destroys the Earth."

Considering it comes from the very same book and it describes the same situation, whereas this second quote goes more into detail about the whole ordeal, I think it's safe to say that Pure Buu's power compared to anyone in particular was not intended as the main interpretation of the former quote.
And if they really wanted to say that it's first now he can annihilate the Earth, why not just say: "Because they cut him loose, he's capable of exhibiting enough power to annihilate the Earth." ?

To be perfectly honest, I don't see Evil Buu < Pure Buu even hinted at in the former quote. All I see is Pure Buu being crazy enough to make a blast that would instantly obliterate Earth, as opposed to Evil Buu, who wanted to fight Earth's Warriors before destroying Earth.

And I forgot to post this:

Chapter: 495 (DBZ 301), P3.4
Context: Boo fires a huge beam of energy into the sky
Piccolo: “If it had taken th-that head on, the Ea-Earth would have been wiped out without a trace…!”

Evil Buu was able to do it as well.