Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

[Kaboom]

Seems Salagir and I pretty much agree about the forms. I've always considered Coola's "fifth" form in Movie 5 to be something extra on top of his true form, and have noted that time was the most likely reason for Cold not transforming. I mean, look at how long it took Freeza to go from his last suppression into his true form... there was enough time for everyone to run around, form plans, get mortally wounded and healed, etc...

[TonyTheTiger]

I guess that makes sense, I assume he would be vulnerable to any attack that came his way during the transformation process. In that case must've had to put hope into the whole "sword is his power source" theory.

It still doesn't add up, though, because here's a guy who is looking for revenge on some dude he doesn't know much about but what he does know is that his name is Goku and he has at minimum a power level of 120,000,000. So why is he going into a fight in a repressed form at all if he has substantially more than 120,000,000 in reserve? It wouldn't be the first time a Dragon Ball villain did something dumb out of arrogance but this goes beyond arrogance into complete brain dead stupid. Even Freeza knew to transform when Piccolo showed up with enough power to challenge his second form.

I'm all for expanding on Cold since we got so little of him. I'm not even especially against him having been in a suppressed form. What I don't think works is his max power being substantially beyond Freeza because then the only thing we really learn about him is that he was a moron.

I think what would make more sense to me is an explanation that Cold's multipliers are different so the gap between big horn mode and final mode is much smaller for him. Like he suppresses less power in his lower forms due to a lack of control, desire, or some such. At least then that would explain why big horn Cold can be in the ballpark of final form Freeza and at the same time still hold that he didn't go into the fight in his final form because the difference would have been somewhat negligible given that there were two of them and they only expected Goku to be a concern. And then he didn't transform against Trunks because he knew that given what Trunks did to Freeza it would have been futile.

[Maphisto86]

You're last paragraph Tony does make some sense. Again I personally was going by the basis of Cold being slightly stronger than his son Freeza (who's cyborg body was supposed to be enhanced albeit doesn't seem to be). As for Cold making a stupid move, well since he is older than Freeza and just as powerful I would assume that his ego even surpassed his son's and Vegeta's monstrous self-confidence. I always wondered how old King Cold, Freeza and Cooler really are? Cold being the elder of a family that hosts the strongest beings in the universe for some time must make one rather complacent. Either way I like to think that King Cold is in a "repressed" form one way or another but it is possible as he is an older member of his species. Maybe Tony is right and the differences between his forms and the one's his children possess is not as incredible.

P.S. Argh, I really need to catch up on my "Dragon Box" episodes. I managed to get five of them so far and I hear the subtitles for the dialogue is accurate. Maybe then I can actually get things 100% correct around here!

[Rostir]

I guess that makes sense, I assume he would be vulnerable to any attack that came his way during the transformation process. In that case must've had to put hope into the whole "sword is his power source" theory.

It still doesn't add up, though, because here's a guy who is looking for revenge on some dude he doesn't know much about but what he does know is that his name is Goku and he has at minimum a power level of 120,000,000. So why is he going into a fight in a repressed form at all if he has substantially more than 120,000,000 in reserve? It wouldn't be the first time a Dragon Ball villain did something dumb out of arrogance but this goes beyond arrogance into complete brain dead stupid. Even Freeza knew to transform when Piccolo showed up with enough power to challenge his second form.

I'm all for expanding on Cold since we got so little of him. I'm not even especially against him having been in a suppressed form. What I don't think works is his max power being substantially beyond Freeza because then the only thing we really learn about him is that he was a moron.

I think what would make more sense to me is an explanation that Cold's multipliers are different so the gap between big horn mode and final mode is much smaller for him. Like he suppresses less power in his lower forms due to a lack of control, desire, or some such. At least then that would explain why big horn Cold can be in the ballpark of final form Freeza and at the same time still hold that he didn't go into the fight in his final form because the difference would have been somewhat negligible given that there were two of them and they only expected Goku to be a concern. And then he didn't transform against Trunks because he knew that given what Trunks did to Freeza it would have been futile.

Your analysis is well thought out and thought provoking.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

and have noted that time was the most likely reason for Cold not transforming.

While I'm not totally against this idea, it seems like a kind of weak argument seeing how Trunks spent a lot of time humoring the two of them (even more so in the anime). Trunks plays Cold's little sword game and he didn't even attempt to kill Freeza before he himself was attacked. Trunks might have let Cold transform, assuming that Goku, who was to soft to kill Freeza the first time, defeated the two of them, so whatever Cold transformed into still wasn't capable of matching a Super Saiyan. I know Trunks likes to employ preemptive strikes, as seen by his later actions against the Jinzoningen, but he wasn't his "We have to kill them NOW!"-self during that fight.

Cold might have assumed that Trunks wouldn't give him the time to transform, but once the boy handed over his "magic" sword, what was stopping him?

[rereboy]

Hold on guys. Cold's restricted form being about as powerful as Freeza's final form doesn't mean that Cold's true form is that much powerful than Freeza or even if it is more powerful.

First, we don't know just how much Salagir believes Cold's power increases in his true form compared to his restricted form. It doesn't have to be an increase proportionally as large as Freeza's increase.

Second, Freeza has many levels of power in his true form. He has the level of power that he used to fight Vegeta and Goku (in the beginning) in Namek, he has 50% of his full power, he has 70% of his full power and he has 100% of his full power. These are all the levels he showed in the manga. I'm not sure if Salagir is referring to his 100% power or some other one.

Anyway, its Salagir's manga, so he can do whatever he wants. Also (in-world), in the universe of the Frost Demons, its possible that this Cold is actually different from the one in the manga universe for one reason or another.

Plus it doesn't make much sense when you consider that in the timeline Trunks came from it was Goku who beat Freeza and Cold. If Cold really had substantially more power behind him would he have not transformed against the guy he knew had a power level above 120,000,000?

Salagir probably rationalizes this by saying that Cold simply didn't have enough time to transform, like he said in the answers. Possibly he thinks that Cold figured that if he tried, Trunks would just immediately attack him... Hence why he didn't have time. And since he believed that Trunks was nothing without his sword, he tried to convince him to give him the sword before deciding to try to transform or try to leave. Once he got the sword, he believed that he would be able to kill Trunks, even in his restricted form.

Anyway, if we don't agree with this explanation, we can simply rationalize it ourselves by saying that Cold from this universe is different from the one in the manga universe for one reason or another, namely his power.

And, like I said, its not certain yet if Cold is stronger than Freeza in his true form.

From what I can tell you from the upcoming pages that I've already seen, its not clear at all if Cold is more powerful than Freeza.

[dbgtFO]

From what I can tell you from the upcoming pages that I've already seen, its not clear at all if Cold is more powerful than Freeza.

He shouldn't be either, if he didn't train and if it's the same King Cold like in the original work.
Freeza says he's the strongest in the universe right in front of his father, and Cold himself recognizes Trunks as the strongest in the universe, because he defeated Freeza.

As I said earlier, Cold being in a restrictive form just doesn't make sense to me, but I don't really care, I'm still more interested in Salagir's theories about the Z Sword.

[funrush]

I know Trunks likes to employ preemptive strikes, as seen by his later actions against the Jinzoningen, but he wasn't his "We have to kill them NOW!"-self during that fight.

I don't even know if Trunks knew that Freeza or could transform. If he did, who was guessing that his father could too? I assume he didn't know what Freeza looked like in his second form so he couldn't really guess that his father wasn't in his final form.

[rereboy]

From what I can tell you from the upcoming pages that I've already seen, its not clear at all if Cold is more powerful than Freeza.

He shouldn't be either, if he didn't train and if it's the same King Cold like in the original work.
Freeza says he's the strongest in the universe right in front of his father, and Cold himself recognizes Trunks as the strongest in the universe, because he defeated Freeza.

As I said earlier, Cold being in a restrictive form just doesn't make sense to me, but I don't really care, I'm still more interested in Salagir's theories about the Z Sword.

Training isn't the only explanation for why he could be stronger in this universe, you know... There are countless possibilities for the differences in the universes.

For example... Maybe Cold from the main universe suffered from a genetic disease that made him weaker than he should be and because of it, he ruled his empire from the shadows, allowing Freeza to be the face of the empire. On the contrary, in this universe, Cold's disease never surfaced, so he didn't become weaker than he should be and he also didn't rule from the shadows nearly as much because of it. That is also why Freeza didn't lose the battle in Namek. Cold, being much more "hands on" than in the main universe, learned of the Dragon Balls at the same time as Freeza and so he accompanied Freeza to Namek to also become immortal. His presence made the difference and Goku and the others died. However, they didn't become immortal because all Namekians refused to summon the dragon.

So, as you can see, here is a nice little theory for their universe that I came up with in 10 minutes which explains why he is stronger without involving any training and also explains why Freeza's family won. And I'm sure that there are a lot of other satisfying theories.

[Ussj Future Trunks]

I wonder if Salagir considers Goku and Vegeta to be past their prime. Because Toriyama in SEG i think said that they maintain their youth until the end of their lifespan where they suddenly age quickly and die, but have the same lifespan as normal Humans. So what the hell? Does that mean that at the end of z, Goku and Vegeta really were getting too old to maintain their power?

there is no proof of this in the manga, I just arbitrarily decided it for DBM).

sounds like a lot of the plot holes in DBM.

[rereboy]

Well, its okay to expand on the manga and decide things that aren't clear in it as long as we don't contradict the manga. Cold's power being close to Freeza's (in the only form we see him in) doesn't contradict the manga.

But we'll see. Its not even clear of Cold is stronger than Freeza in DBM.

[Cipher]

I just randomly popped in on this (as I do every once in a while). I agree with pretty much everything the author has put forth: Cold is in his "second stage" restricted form when he appears on Earth, he didn't transform because it would be too lengthy, and Coola's fifth form is an unnatural augmentation on top of his true form (whence why he reverts as he's thrown into the sun).

But, but--

I've never had a problem with Cold being in a restricted form because, as far as I can remember, there's nothing indicating that he's actually within the ballpark of final form Freeza. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the characters only go so far as to comment that there's "another big power, like Freeza"? Big power is vague (even second-form Freeza is a pretty damn "big" power at this point), and I'd always taken the "like" Freeza to mean it produces a similar feeling. (For example, the characters sense Goku and Freeza both in Cell, indicating that there's obviously different feelings, not just amounts.) So, there's another ki, it's big, and it's evil like Freeza. And even then, there are all of Freeza's different percentages of strength, etc. So I always just assumed that Cold was both restricted, and nowhere near as strong as Freeza, whether in his restricted form as we see him or in a hypothetical true form.

So if this takes the approach of equating second-form Cold to true-form Freeza, and making Cold stronger overall, that I have a problem with. There's nothing to indicate that, and it muddles up the entire scope of events in the main series. But if the only assumption it's making is that Cold was in a restricted form, that I'm behind one-hundred percent.

[Shoryuken]

IMO King Cold wans't really in his second form at all in the manga/anime. First of all if you noticed when Freeza was in his various form (prior to his fourth and final form) they all had for lack of a better word ridged skin, especially his arms and legs, whereas as his final form had smooth skin akin to King Cold. So if anything King Cold should be transforming into his fifth form.

[rereboy]

IMO King Cold wans't really in his second form at all in the manga/anime. First of all if you noticed when Freeza was in his various form (prior to his fourth and final form) they all had for lack of a better word ridged skin, especially his arms and legs, whereas as his final form had smooth skin akin to King Cold. So if anything King Cold should be transforming into his fifth form.

Cold still has ridged skin in his tail, unlike Freeza's final form. And besides the differences in the skin of the arms and legs and a slight difference in the horns and in the shoulders, they look pretty much identical. Even if you don't agree that its a restricted form, I'm sure you agree that its perfectly logical for someone to assume it is.

[Shoryuken]

Indeed. Concerning my theory of Cold in his fourth form, you could comparatively look at Cooler who also looks nothing like his brother in his fourth form; Indicating variations. On a sidenote I am also rather interested in seeing how they portray his fourth form (keeping the horns and what not).

[funrush]

Is the Multiverse site being extremely slow on anyone else or is it just me?

Here's the page. So this is Cold's (final?) form.

[Attitudefan]

Cold better win! Seriously, if he loses I will have lost all serious logic to this

Anyways, let the fight, BEGIN!

[TrunksTrevelyan0064]

Well, I know one thing: I'd rather have this form of Cold in a video game than SSJ3 Broly or Vegeta.

[batistabus]

So since Cold "dropped his restricted form", that means this is his true form?

And regardless of what DBM says, to me, Coola > Freeza > Cold > Kuriza.

[TonyTheTiger]

I can't imagine this is his ultimate form. That would just be weird. It could be just another awkward English translation. I'm guessing Videl will perform admirably enough but Cold will bust out something fierce to finish the job.