Official levels from Jump. Finally Cell's and Buu's saga

[Nineteen]

I, on the other hand, think you are heavily underestimating the power-ups up to Semi-perfect Cell. At this form he could defeat in one hit the guy that can defeat in one hit the guy that can defeat in one hit Super Saiyan Trunks, and that with his power still supressed.

My biggest problem is that Cell's actual showings don't justify having him be twenty-six times stronger than fourth-form Freeza. His actual fights aren't any more impressive than the last battle with Freeza, and while I admit you can't base power with any degree of accuracy off visuals, it should allow you to come to at least a reasonable understanding of where a character is at in terms of power. In other words: I'm not dogging on the Cell arc guys as much as I am boosting the earlier incarnations of the characters.

[Bussani]

Wel... No one can deny that SSJ2 Goku is 6000 Kili and SSJ3 Goku is 24.000 Kili though...




But how much is a Kili?

Well, like Fox666 said, we don't know what the conversion between battle powers and kiri is like. I seriously doubt Toriyama ever even came up with one, to be honest. To be certain SSJ2 Goku's kiri would be 6000, you'd have to be certain that the conversion between these two things is perfectly linear--that is, 1 kiri = _______ battle power. If the conversion of more like fahrenheit and kelvin, or some sort of logarithmic scale like decibels, then 6000 kiri would likely be wrong. Besides that, there's no way of knowing if the 3000 reading they got from Goku was his true power, since Super Saiyans in the Buu saga don't always show their full power right away.

[hleV]

Wel... No one can deny that SSJ2 Goku is 6000 Kili and SSJ3 Goku is 24.000 Kili though...

I can. In fact, very easily. Remember that Goku had mastered the Super Saiyan form, so he can easily suppress his battle power to 5, even while Super Saiyan. Now, the only reason Goku transformed against Yakon was to lighten everything up, so I'm pretty positive 3000 Kili wasn't Goku's true Super Saiyan power. Otherwise the Super Saiyan x50 multiplier doesn't really work here, which, if you ask me, is out of question.

[Son_Gohan]

Wel... No one can deny that SSJ2 Goku is 6000 Kili and SSJ3 Goku is 24.000 Kili though...

I can. In fact, very easily. Remember that Goku had mastered the Super Saiyan form, so he can easily suppress his battle power to 5, even while Super Saiyan. Now, the only reason Goku transformed against Yakon was to lighten everything up, so I'm pretty positive 3000 Kili wasn't Goku's true Super Saiyan power. Otherwise the Super Saiyan x50 multiplier doesn't really work here, which, if you ask me, is out of question.

Possibly, but it also could have been his maximum.

If he had suppressed his power too low as a Super Saiyan, he wouldn't have had an aura. And the aura Goku displayed was a strong one, which doesn't give much indication to him suppressing his power, at least not by much.

[Fox666]

Wel... No one can deny that SSJ2 Goku is 6000 Kili and SSJ3 Goku is 24.000 Kili though...

I can. In fact, very easily. Remember that Goku had mastered the Super Saiyan form, so he can easily suppress his battle power to 5, even while Super Saiyan. Now, the only reason Goku transformed against Yakon was to lighten everything up, so I'm pretty positive 3000 Kili wasn't Goku's true Super Saiyan power. Otherwise the Super Saiyan x50 multiplier doesn't really work here, which, if you ask me, is out of question.

It does work, if you, for example, include the Kaio-ken in the equation. But there are other ways to explain it.

I am not sure about Goku's power being his maximum or not. At first that seems to be the implication, since he powered-up to enlight the area.

At first you can consider the 800-3,000 as being non-linear. However the problem with that is, if from 800 to 3,000 it means it increased over 50 times, shouldn't Dabura be worried about the details of Goku's 3,000 Kili? I mean, he should have asked if it isn't 3,100 or 3,200 which should be enough to multiply the power by 2 or more (enough to defeat Super Perfect Cell).

The Kili thing is something quite confusing to me. I can't give a veredict.

I, on the other hand, think you are heavily underestimating the power-ups up to Semi-perfect Cell. At this form he could defeat in one hit the guy that can defeat in one hit the guy that can defeat in one hit Super Saiyan Trunks, and that with his power still supressed.

My biggest problem is that Cell's actual showings don't justify having him be twenty-six times stronger than fourth-form Freeza. His actual fights aren't any more impressive than the last battle with Freeza, and while I admit you can't base power with any degree of accuracy off visuals, it should allow you to come to at least a reasonable understanding of where a character is at in terms of power. In other words: I'm not dogging on the Cell arc guys as much as I am boosting the earlier incarnations of the characters.

Well, the blasts of Majin Boo saga characters aren't much different than the 23rd Budokai or Saiyan saga. Nappa with merely 4,000 caused more damage to the Earth than the fat Majin Boo. Still you won't rate Majin Boo at that level. At best Toriyama simply couldn't handle the magnetude of characters power.

But for example, take in consideration the portion of power Perfect Cell used against Vegeta. With just that, Vegeta couldn't even see him moving and he seemed to be teleporting for him, and when Vegeta kicked Cell in the neck he didn't even move. If you ask me, the difference beetween them was huge. And as if that wasn't enough, when Vegeta and Trunks sensed Goku using only half of his power they were completely flabbergasted as if that was the greatest power they have seen so far (and remember that Trunks in Grade III overcome Cell in terms of Ki or at least as much as Cell used until them).

[goldsaint13]

It was never stated if Kili is proportional to battle powers, so you can deny. We don't have much information about Kili, so we can't say anything for real.

Well, being proportional or not... If SSJ2 is double the power of SSJ1, double is double... Whatever measure scale you use...

I read somewhere that a power level of one million was equal to one kili. I don't know if it was official though.

That's what that fake scan implies...


If we could be sure that 1 Kili is 1 million anything would be easier...

Babidi said that 200 or 300 Kili are enough to easily destroy a planet... I think he meant a big planet, not like Earth... More like Namek...

Freezer with a supposed power of more than 60 Kili didn't make it in one blow...
If 1 Kili is 1 million, 200 or 300 Kili are more likely levels from the Androids saga...

Honestly, the only problems I have with that list are the bottom row. I've got the following:

"Super" Vegeta/"USSJ" Vegeta: ~ 625,000,000
Perfect Cell: ~ 1,200,000,000
Super Perfect Cell: ~ 2,000,000,000
FPSSJ Goku: ~ 950,000,000
SSJ1 Gohan: ~ 1,150,000
SSJ2 Gohan: ~ 2,300,000,000

They are proportioned each other, but I think that they should be at least all doubled...

I feel SSJ FP Goku to be 3.000.000.000 to be more accurate... That's why the fact of 1 Kili = 1 million makes sense to me...

Surely 1 Kili is converted in a number in the order of 10... Don't expect 1 kili to be 1.654.349 or something...

So if SSJ FP Goku is 3000 Kili, what's the best measure?

300 millions?

No, too low... Goku could have that power already in Androids saga...


30 billions? Possible but I feel it's a bit too high...

I'm more for 3 billions... Although also 30 is possible...

I, on the other hand, think you are heavily underestimating the power-ups from the Cell saga. There have been many many many instances which a character is unchartered from the others attack and that sort of thing. Besides seems like you forget that Vegeta was astonished by half of Goku's Ki.

That's true...

Well, if Goku would be 3 billions and Vegeta 1 billion, half of Goku power would be above Vegeta already...

More that it, the most extreme thing is half of SSJ2 Gohan power on par with Super Perfect Cell...

That is hard to obtain with numbers without going into exagerations...

[goldsaint13]

Well, like Fox666 said, we don't know what the conversion between battle powers and kiri is like. I seriously doubt Toriyama ever even came up with one, to be honest. To be certain SSJ2 Goku's kiri would be 6000, you'd have to be certain that the conversion between these two things is perfectly linear--that is, 1 kiri = _______ battle power. If the conversion of more like fahrenheit and kelvin, or some sort of logarithmic scale like decibels, then 6000 kiri would likely be wrong. Besides that, there's no way of knowing if the 3000 reading they got from Goku was his true power, since Super Saiyans in the Buu saga don't always show their full power right away.

Ok, but if we are doubting that Toriyama had ever done a conversion between Kili and BP, I can't imagine him giving Kili a non linear progression...

Truth is that 3000 Kili may be not the true SSJ Full Power... It could even be like the early battle Goku vs Cell, before Goku liberated all his aura...

Even though I don't think Kurumada is that accurate with things...

We don't even know if Gohan was or not SSJ2 against Darbula and Fat Buu because he didn't have sparkles...

I can. In fact, very easily. Remember that Goku had mastered the Super Saiyan form, so he can easily suppress his battle power to 5, even while Super Saiyan. Now, the only reason Goku transformed against Yakon was to lighten everything up, so I'm pretty positive 3000 Kili wasn't Goku's true Super Saiyan power. Otherwise the Super Saiyan x50 multiplier doesn't really work here, which, if you ask me, is out of question.

It's possible... Although he used SSJ2 for a brief moment to make Yakon explode and that makes me think he was using the real SSJ FP strength, but we are not certain of it anyway...

The 50X multiplier is more to use for early SSJ, before FP...

Possibly, but it also could have been his maximum.

If he had suppressed his power too low as a Super Saiyan, he wouldn't have had an aura. And the aura Goku displayed was a strong one, which doesn't give much indication to him suppressing his power, at least not by much.

Correct...

Suppressed Full Power SSJs have no aura and not angered eyes...

At first you can consider the 800-3,000 as being non-linear. However the problem with that is, if from 800 to 3,000 it means it increased over 50 times, shouldn't Dabura be worried about the details of Goku's 3,000 Kili? I mean, he should have asked if it isn't 3,100 or 3,200 which should be enough to multiply the power by 2 or more (enough to defeat Super Perfect Cell).

Darbula is very overconfident... Taking the anime for true, he is above 4000 Kili... But I would have been worried if I was him to see someone lighting up and getting a power of 3000 Kili as it would be nothing...

[hleV]

Wel... No one can deny that SSJ2 Goku is 6000 Kili and SSJ3 Goku is 24.000 Kili though...

I can. In fact, very easily. Remember that Goku had mastered the Super Saiyan form, so he can easily suppress his battle power to 5, even while Super Saiyan. Now, the only reason Goku transformed against Yakon was to lighten everything up, so I'm pretty positive 3000 Kili wasn't Goku's true Super Saiyan power. Otherwise the Super Saiyan x50 multiplier doesn't really work here, which, if you ask me, is out of question.

Possibly, but it also could have been his maximum.

If he had suppressed his power too low as a Super Saiyan, he wouldn't have had an aura. And the aura Goku displayed was a strong one, which doesn't give much indication to him suppressing his power, at least not by much.

Well, every Super Saiyan has an aura when one transforms. And what "strong aura"? Isn't that aura simply indicating that the user has fully mastered the form of Super Saiyan? Goku possibly adjusted his aura to enlighten the environment better, though. Neither Vegeta nor Gohan were surprised about this new power of Goku, even though Goku was stronger than both of them in Super Saiyan forms. Let alone Dabra, who was only surprised about Goku's unusual strength, not giving any indication of worrying or by how much Dabra's stronger than that.

Goku was shown to be above Yakon in base form. This means about 1000 Kili. I don't see why would he use the full power of his as Super Saiyan when he was already above him before transforming and only wanted to lighten everything up for the fucking lulz xD.

[dbgtFO]

It was never stated if Kili is proportional to battle powers, so you can deny. We don't have much information about Kili, so we can't say anything for real.

Well, being proportional or not... If SSJ2 is double the power of SSJ1, double is double... Whatever measure scale you use...

No not really.
Example Given:

Somebody who doesn't know of the celsius scale can only draw his conclusions based on the Fahrenheit scale. So when he says "today it's double the temperature it was yesterday," it only means on the scale he knows of.
If you use the known formula for conversion of Fahrenheit to Celsius, you'll see that double the temperature on the Fahrenheit scale =/= double the temperature on the Celsius scale.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrenheit

The formula: [°C] = ([°F] − 32) × 5⁄9

Yesterday(40 degrees Fahrenheit)
Today(80 degrees Fahrenheit)¨

Celsius(yesterday)= ([°40] − 32) × 5⁄9
Celsius(yesterday)= 4,444.

Celsius(today)=([°80] − 32) × 5⁄9
Celsius(today)= 26,666.

As you can see double the fahrenheit doesn't necessarily mean double the celsius, since 26,666 is obviously not double 4,444.

[Bussani]

Ok, but if we are doubting that Toriyama had ever done a conversion between Kili and BP, I can't imagine him giving Kili a non linear progression...

I would if I were him. 800 and 3000 apparently have some sort of slang-like meaning in Japanese that's like saying "a lot", which is likely all he was basing the numbers on. Waving your hand and saying the scale doesn't convert to battle powers linearly is way easier than defining a linear conversion, especially when you consider that battle powers hadn't been used for a good while at that point in the story. It requires no consistency, so it's the perfect way to give two throwaway numbers and never explain it.

[goldsaint13]

Well, every Super Saiyan has an aura when one transforms. And what "strong aura"? Isn't that aura simply indicating that the user has fully mastered the form of Super Saiyan? Goku possibly adjusted his aura to enlighten the environment better, though. Neither Vegeta nor Gohan were surprised about this new power of Goku, even though Goku was stronger than both of them in Super Saiyan forms. Let alone Dabra, who was only surprised about Goku's unusual strength, not giving any indication of worrying or by how much Dabra's stronger than that.

Probably Gohan and Vegeta expected that power from Goku, it was nothing particulary new... Vegeta is surprised only when Goku briefly shows the SSJ2 form... But somehow he expected even that... And so he lets Babidi power up him...

Goku was shown to be above Yakon in base form. This means about 1000 Kili. I don't see why would he use the full power of his as Super Saiyan when he was already above him before transforming and only wanted to lighten everything up for the fucking lulz xD.

I'm not sure that Yakon is that weak... Kaiohshin is stronger than Piccolo and he is a bit worried about Yakon...
I think that Yakon was playing with Goku on the fact that he couldn't see anything, but I don't think he could be defeated without SSJ...

No not really.
Example Given:

Somebody who doesn't know of the celsius scale can only draw his conclusions based on the Fahrenheit scale. So when he says "today it's double the temperature it was yesterday," it only means on the scale he knows of.
If you use the known formula for conversion of Fahrenheit to Celsius, you'll see that double the temperature on the Fahrenheit scale =/= double the temperature on the Celsius scale.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrenheit

The formula: [°C] = ([°F] − 32) × 5⁄9

Yesterday(40 degrees Fahrenheit)
Today(80 degrees Fahrenheit)¨

Celsius(yesterday)= ([°40] − 32) × 5⁄9
Celsius(yesterday)= 4,444.

Celsius(today)=([°80] − 32) × 5⁄9
Celsius(today)= 26,666.

As you can see double the fahrenheit doesn't necessarily mean double the celsius, since 26,666 is obviously not double 4,444.

Yes, the "growth rate" just to say, is different and there is more distance between half of one measure to its double that the half of the other measure with its double...

But relatively to the same measure, double seems to be still double... It's not ensured though that it will be double in the other measure too...

I'm not good at maths, so I may be wrong anyway...

I would if I were him. 800 and 3000 apparently have some sort of slang-like meaning in Japanese that's like saying "a lot", which is likely all he was basing the numbers on. Waving your hand and saying the scale doesn't convert to battle powers linearly is way easier than defining a linear conversion, especially when you consider that battle powers hadn't been used for a good while at that point in the story. It requires no consistency, so it's the perfect way to give two throwaway numbers and never explain it.

Well, but I think that if he would be forced to explain it, to use a linear conversion would be a lot easier... The 1 Kili = 1 million would make things a lot cleaner without the need of complex calculations that wouldn't fit a Shonen manga...

[Fox666]

Even though I don't think Kurumada is that accurate with things...

*look at yours username* you got the wrong author here sir

At first you can consider the 800-3,000 as being non-linear. However the problem with that is, if from 800 to 3,000 it means it increased over 50 times, shouldn't Dabura be worried about the details of Goku's 3,000 Kili? I mean, he should have asked if it isn't 3,100 or 3,200 which should be enough to multiply the power by 2 or more (enough to defeat Super Perfect Cell).

Darbula is very overconfident... Taking the anime for true, he is above 4000 Kili... But I would have been worried if I was him to see someone lighting up and getting a power of 3000 Kili as it would be nothing...

My point is that from 800 to 3000 means a difference of 50 times, and 4000 would be even stronger than Super Saiyan 3.

Well, every Super Saiyan has an aura when one transforms. And what "strong aura"? Isn't that aura simply indicating that the user has fully mastered the form of Super Saiyan? Goku possibly adjusted his aura to enlighten the environment better, though. Neither Vegeta nor Gohan were surprised about this new power of Goku, even though Goku was stronger than both of them in Super Saiyan forms. Let alone Dabra, who was only surprised about Goku's unusual strength, not giving any indication of worrying or by how much Dabra's stronger than that.

Goku was shown to be above Yakon in base form. This means about 1000 Kili. I don't see why would he use the full power of his as Super Saiyan when he was already above him before transforming and only wanted to lighten everything up for the fucking lulz xD.

Looking at the pages now, I believe goldsaint13 is right, Goku powered to the maximum, similar to when he was fighting Cell.

I am not sure if Goku without transforming was really stronger than Yakon. The fight is more based on environment than power (i.e. the area is darkened but Goku senses Yakon movements). So I would not judge by that.

There have been some indications that Kili is not a different scale. Besides Dabura being confident he could beat 3000 Kili, it also happened that Babidi and Dabura trusted Yakon A LOT, to the point they couldn't believe Kaioshin and the rest could possible defeat him. So somehow he having around 1/4 of Super Saiyan Goku power makes sense for Dabura to trusth him.

The problem with the linear scaling for Kili is that the numbers are relatively small. Ordinary humans and all of Freeza underlings would be measured equally as "zero", and that seems very odd since the Kili would be unable to measure the power of an human.

[goldsaint13]

*look at yours username* you got the wrong author here sir

Actually...





There's a reason for that freudian lapsus.. The two authors are more or less in the same boat of inaccuracy...

Tory stopped giving power levels at one point...

Kuru never gave one and used a too emotionally variable power system...

My point is that from 800 to 3000 means a difference of 50 times, and 4000 would be even stronger than Super Saiyan 3.

That's because you think Yakon = Base Goku, but I think the early fight was only a mere skirmish just to play around... Like when Vegeta thinks himself to be able to match the last form of Freezer/Cell before getting pawned...

Looking at the pages now, I believe goldsaint13 is right, Goku powered to the maximum, similar to when he was fighting Cell.

Right... Because after Full Power unlock they all can stay SSJ without tension and with the calm eyes... When we see auras or scaring look, they activated the real strength...

I always thought that the calm SSJ state is basically the early SSJ that can be used as an half-base form...


This way:

Base form x50 = early SSJ OR calm Full Power state

Early SSJ/calm Full Power state x(unknown number) = true power Full Power state with aura and scaring look

I am not sure if Goku without transforming was really stronger than Yakon. The fight is more based on environment than power (i.e. the area is darkened but Goku senses Yakon movements). So I would not judge by that.

That's what I mean...

There have been some indications that Kili is not a different scale. Besides Dabura being confident he could beat 3000 Kili, it also happened that Babidi and Dabura trusted Yakon A LOT, to the point they couldn't believe Kaioshin and the rest could possible defeat him. So somehow he having around 1/4 of Super Saiyan Goku power makes sense for Dabura to trusth him.

That's it!!!


Well, Kaiohshin is however a lot underated... He is stronger than Piccolo as a Daizenshuu said... I can't see Kaiohshin to be that much different from Ascended Super Vegeta... But considering that 1/2 of SSJ FP Goku from Cell Game arc was > than Ascended Super Vegeta, it makes sense...

The problem with the linear scaling for Kili is that the numbers are relatively small. Ordinary humans and all of Freeza underlings would be measured equally as "zero", and that seems very odd since the Kili would be unable to measure the power of an human.

I think they would be 0,00000X... Kili serves to measure the energy needed to fill Majin Buu's power and it takes more than a SSJ2 energy to do it... That's why the Kili measure should be scaled a lot higher that Battle Power...

[Fox666]

Base form x50 = early SSJ OR calm Full Power state

Early SSJ/calm Full Power state x(unknown number) = true power Full Power state with aura and scaring look

I think that's unlikely. The Full-power Super Saiyan learn how to control their Ki like they normally could in their base state, and there is no measurement for that. Besides, it's not like Full-power Super Saiyan is a different transformation of any kind. It's merely the Super Saiyan state with more control, thus I don't see why it would have a multiplier other than 50 times.

The guides never provided any other number than 50 times, and I believe that if a full-power Super Saiyan was different they would provide the information considering they even revealed Super Saiyan 2 and 3 multipliers. In fact if I am not wrong whenever the guides mention the full-power Super Saiyan they put the "full-power" part beetween beetween quotes, since it's not a new transformation of any kind.

Well, Kaiohshin is however a lot underated... He is stronger than Piccolo as a Daizenshuu said... I can't see Kaiohshin to be that much different from Ascended Super Vegeta... But considering that 1/2 of SSJ FP Goku from Cell Game arc was > than Ascended Super Vegeta, it makes sense...

Kaioshin exact strength is not clear. But I am beginning to believe that he is somewhat close to the Super Saiyans in the Majin Boo saga.

I think they would be 0,00000X... Kili serves to measure the energy needed to fill Majin Buu's power and it takes more than a SSJ2 energy to do it... That's why the Kili measure should be scaled a lot higher that Battle Power...

Not exactly, Kili was used to measure Goku's level of power, I am not sure if Majin Boo egg meter used the same system. And going by the Daizenshuu, only the device Babidi used could measure up to 3000 Kili.

Considering the awareness of Babidi and Dabura over the humans, I would expect that the Kili actually could measure them, like a normal human having 10 Kili. And the Kili meter is a visual indicator like an analog clock, so it would be impossible to read decimal values.

[goldsaint13]

I think that's unlikely. The Full-power Super Saiyan learn how to control their Ki like they normally could in their base state, and there is no measurement for that. Besides, it's not like Full-power Super Saiyan is a different transformation of any kind. It's merely the Super Saiyan state with more control, thus I don't see why it would have a multiplier other than 50 times.

The guides never provided any other number than 50 times, and I believe that if a full-power Super Saiyan was different they would provide the information considering they even revealed Super Saiyan 2 and 3 multipliers. In fact if I am not wrong whenever the guides mention the full-power Super Saiyan they put the "full-power" part beetween beetween quotes, since it's not a new transformation of any kind.

Correct, although I can hardly see Goku jumping from a base form of 3 millions or so to a base form of 30 millions...

To control SSJ can't also mean to reach a base form 10 times stronger, they are different concepts...

I think that Goku & co. base forms never surpassed 10 millions during the series and they could never beat Freezer in normal form, even during Buu's saga... Goku and Vegeta reached a base form of 3 millions or so abusing Zenkai, but other than that, their improvements always came from transformations since then...

If Full Power is the mastered power of SSJ and it jumps from barely holding it's own against Androids to being able to do the same with Perfect Cell... It couldn't be the usual 50 times multiplier... I'm feeling that Ful Power turns to be more like 500 times the base for, or something like that...
In the SEG it's written X50, true, but the image shows the early SSJ, not the Full Power one...

Kaioshin exact strength is not clear. But I am beginning to believe that he is somewhat close to the Super Saiyans in the Majin Boo saga.

I have more or less the same idea... Maybe a bit under them since he can't fight Darbula... He could be like SSJ1 Gohan (assuming that Gohan went SSJ2 against Darbula and Majin Buu, although missing the sparkles)...

Not exactly, Kili was used to measure Goku's level of power, I am not sure if Majin Boo egg meter used the same system.

Well, it's likely that it does...

And going by the Daizenshuu, only the device Babidi used could measure up to 3000 Kili.

Yes, in the manga he orders one of his minions to bring the advanced one...

Considering the awareness of Babidi and Dabura over the humans, I would expect that the Kili actually could measure them, like a normal human having 10 Kili. And the Kili meter is a visual indicator like an analog clock, so it would be impossible to read decimal values.

Well, it'sa possible that the basic measurer is for smaller numbers, the other instead to measure the true powerful fighters... He has been looking for the hero who defeated Cell since the beginning because he would have given enough energy to fill Majin Buu's metter, but Gohan had gotten weaker, they were Goku and Majin Vegeta instead to have more or less the same power as Cell Games SSJ2 Gohan and they filled the matter instantly... So Babidi was prepared to higher measures...

[Fox666]

If Full Power is the mastered power of SSJ and it jumps from barely holding it's own against Androids to being able to do the same with Perfect Cell... It couldn't be the usual 50 times multiplier... I'm feeling that Ful Power turns to be more like 500 times the base for, or something like that...
In the SEG it's written X50, true, but the image shows the early SSJ, not the Full Power one...

As I said, none of the guides ever give such a hint. And I believe informing about full-power Super Saiyan would be more important than Super Saiyan 2 or 3. Thus the conclusion is that there wasn't anything to inform.

And they did get stronger at their normal state. We have been given plenty of hints in the Boo saga. Perhaps you may even include Trunks Kiai attacik over Cell first form. However I agree that they never surpassed Freeza. The hint is that Trunks couldn't fight no.18 without turning in Super Saiyan.

[goldsaint13]

As I said, none of the guides ever give such a hint. And I believe informing about full-power Super Saiyan would be more important than Super Saiyan 2 or 3. Thus the conclusion is that there wasn't anything to inform.

True... Full-Power remains a mystery... It's not even a real transformation, but it's fact that as long as SSJ learn to stay transformed without tension, their power increases by a huge amount...

And they did get stronger at their normal state. We have been given plenty of hints in the Boo saga. Perhaps you may even include Trunks Kiai attacik over Cell first form. However I agree that they never surpassed Freeza. The hint is that Trunks couldn't fight no.18 without turning in Super Saiyan.

Yes, of course they do, but as you said they never even reach the level of Freezer without transforming... Kiai is a strange thing... Like Tenshinhan's Shin Kikoho that pushes Second Form Cell down...
Well, anyway Future Trunks has gotten stronger in base form for sure... He easily defeats 17 and 18 without the Ascended Dai Ni Dankai power...
That means that his early SSJ (x50) is far stronger than it was when he left for the past... That means his base form was too...

[Fox666]

The way I see, staying in the Super Saiyan state is stressful to their bodies, so staying in this form works similar to a weight or gravity training. Since they never have suffered such stress on their bodies before achieving Super Saiyan, that's a whole new unlockable potential.

Besides it's not like the full-power Super Saiyan is such a clear concept. Vegeta in his Super Saiyan form was much stronger when he fought Semi-perfect Cell (to the point Trunks was surprised he was even going to transform in Grade II). And Vegeta was sure he could defeat Perfect Cell at the Cell Games despite not using Grade II anymore.

[Bussani]

Looking at the pages now, I believe goldsaint13 is right, Goku powered to the maximum, similar to when he was fighting Cell.

The panel where he actually transforms looks no different from when he brings half his power out for Karin if you ask me. I don't really buy that you can tell someone's brought out their full power just by looking at the shape of their aura. Heck, the picture you used for Goten and Trunks as "full power Super Saiyans" in your own thread on the subject was from before they'd even brought out their true power.

As for whether kiri is non-linear or not (or to be more precise, whether it converts to battle powers linearly or not), I'm just saying that double in one scale isn't always double in another. It's not unusual at all. It doesn't even necessarily mean that either of the scales themselves are non-linear.

[goldsaint13]

The way I see, staying in the Super Saiyan state is stressful to their bodies, so staying in this form works similar to a weight or gravity training. Since they never have suffered such stress on their bodies before achieving Super Saiyan, that's a whole new unlockable potential.

Yeah but......... 50x multiplier is still 50x multiplier...

Besides it's not like the full-power Super Saiyan is such a clear concept. Vegeta in his Super Saiyan form was much stronger when he fought Semi-perfect Cell (to the point Trunks was surprised he was even going to transform in Grade II). And Vegeta was sure he could defeat Perfect Cell at the Cell Games despite not using Grade II anymore.

Yes, these examples go along with the one I made about Future Trunks being able to blast the Androids with base SSJ...

That could only mean that their base forms have gotten a lot better and then with the x50, that's the result...

But if Cell Games Goku power comes only from being not more 3 millions but 30 millions in base form, then the whole Full Power thing what advantages would give?

The panel where he actually transforms looks no different from when he brings half his power out for Karin if you ask me. I don't really buy that you can tell someone's brought out their full power just by looking at the shape of their aura. Heck, the picture you used for Goten and Trunks as "full power Super Saiyans" in your own thread on the subject was from before they'd even brought out their true power.

Of course the look of the aura is not enough... We are not even able to know if Gohan is SSJ2 or not...

As for whether kiri is non-linear or not (or to be more precise, whether it converts to battle powers linearly or not), I'm just saying that double in one scale isn't always double in another. It's not unusual at all. It doesn't even necessarily mean that either of the scales themselves are non-linear.

Possibly, but in case the two scales should ever be converted, I guess Tory would go for the easiest possible conversion in terms of maths...