I'm not sure what to call this

[roidrage]

What's really weird (and bordering on creepy) to me is how you (well, mainly "you" being roidrage) have managed to turn the discussion less about the topic at hand, and more about me, personally.

I mean, I get that I was the one who responded to the topic creator with a ton of stuff and responded a few more times, but I haven't even been in the thick of things for a while (seriously, for pages... and yet I'm "up in arms" over something?) -- it's no longer about "Saiyan" and more about "Man, that VegettoEX guy and the things I think maybe he says or does but I don't actually cite any examples of them other than one example that was actually his wife and not him in an example that I've conceded was a case where I was unable to tell the difference between a stated opinion and fact."

It's a pretty clever diversion ("Well, OK... I'm saying the word wrong, but look at all this other stuff over here!"), but I'm not biting. Other than what I just bit so far in the form of every word above this one.

To bring things back around...

Gaffer and Rach (and also Tony in there) have given some great responses that really sum things up in terms of... well, everything. The one viewpoint I want to respond to (and actually addresses the original topic) is the whole, "Well I know I'm wrong, but I'm still going to say it wrong despite knowing I'm wrong... and really just because."

To me, that's a willful and stubborn display of ignorance, and I can't get behind it any which way. You're certainly entitled to that viewpoint, but we have a clear conflict of ideology that I absolutely will not budge on.

Additionally, if you are unable to parse the difference between an engaged conversation and "grobble grobble up in arms", that is firmly on you to work out.

Not sure why you feel so inclined to imply I'm "creepy". I did derail the topic, which is why I moved this discussion over here to a place that's more appropriate.

Why would you assume I'm attempting a "diversion"? All I'm doing is stating my suspicions. There's also no reason for you to get so wide-eyed and shocked when someone accuses you of having an ego; you have to be willing to consider your own faults. Like me; I'm overly sensitive, immature, and too quick to anger.

If you read one of my responses to Gaffer Tape (who's quite a bit easier to talk to, I might add), you'll see my explanation for the whole "Soun Gokuu" thing.

To be truthful, thinking about it now, my motivation for saying, "I'm wrong, but I don't care" was to get people out of my face constantly shoving "Soun Gokuu" down my throat. It was my only means of cutting off the argument; even if I am wrong, I don't care, so stop wasting your time wagging your finger at me. But, looking at the posts of Rocketman and particucarly Cipher, it just now dawned on me, "Hey! Maybe I'm not so crazy after all. There are actually people who agree with me!" I thought it was another case of VegettoEX knowing everything and me just refusing to accept it at first, but know I now it's not that cut and dry at all. Therefore, I no longer believe I'm "wrong" on this, if I ever really did in the first place; like you said, there's different answers.

Not me being willfully ignorant so much as it is me having a "dipshit" moment. God knows I have a lot of those.

And in case you haven't noticed, it's not like I'm the only one espousing this point of view. Cipher and Rocketman have done so as well, explaining it in far better words than I ever could. Like this;

"Well I know I'm wrong, but I'm still going to say it wrong despite knowing I'm wrong... and really just because."

To me, that's a willful and stubborn display of ignorance, and I can't get behind it any which way. You're certainly entitled to that viewpoint, but we have a clear conflict of ideology that I absolutely will not budge on.

I'm not exactly arguing against you, but it's less a case of "just because," and more a case of, as TonyTheTiger has said, FUNimation's pronunciation of Saiyan being so ingrained into the culture at large that it's essentially become the English colloquialism, and is therefore subject to all the inaccuracies and strangeness of foreign words in a foreign culture. If it were an obscure term limited to the franchise, I might be more adamant accuracy. But it's bigger than that, to the point where we essentially have a word that is "Saiya-jin" in the Japanese culture, and "(Say-yan)" in America. I can deal with that, and given the impracticality of having any set rules for translating Dragon Ball terms in the first place (every single fan has some strange idiosyncrasies and hypocrisies with this), it's not particularly egregious.

I think there's an equal bit of "willful ignorance" in pretending the phrase hasn't gone beyond the confines of the series (it has), and is somehow immune to the frequent results of adopting foreign words (it's not). As Rocketman has pointed out, if you're going to insist that "Saiyan" be corrected long after it's entered English lexicon, there are dozens and hundreds of other words that deserve the same. I don't expect or want to start hearing "Say-yan" in the Daizex Podcasts, but please understand that being comfortable with the pronunciation is based on a little more rationale than "just because."

You might have had a point beyond being difficult if the French pronounced it "Frahns" and the rest of the world said "FRAN-keh." But since that's not the case, it's not really comparable the Saiyan/Goku situation.

Actually, this is every bit comparable to the "Saiyan" discussion, and an even larger change than the "Goku" pronunciation. The North American pronunciation changes the sound of the first vowel entirely, from a long "a" to a short "a," just as FUNimation's "Saiyan" replaces its first vowel with an off pronunciation. That's actually a great example; thanks. At this point though, the short "a" France is simply the North American version of the word, and as long as you're not ignorant as to the original language, it's completely acceptable to go along with it. And while it's everyone's right to use a more accurate version of "Saiyan," that's exactly the situation that word finds itself in now.

And it's not really comparable to the "Goku" situation, because FUNimation's "Goku" retains all of its syllables, and is merely stressed differently to flow with English sentences. This happens to almost every foreign word to enter English lexicon; it's no big deal. You'd have a point if you were discussing the tendency to mispronounce "Son Goku" (Sone Goku) as "Sun Goku" however, where the vowel is changed inaccurately.

Face it, VegettoEX; you're not going to have it your way. You can think what you want, but you're not a god, and not everybody's going to agree with you on this. (Why did you get so upset over "Vegerot", anyway? You actually said you were "angry". Why? Vegerot conveys the pun better than Vegetto ever could) You're acting every bit as bullheaded as me, only several years older and with a better understanding of online interaction. If you literally get "angry" about such a minor thing, then I have to assume you take this very seriously, and are indeed "up in arms" about it.

You are not entitled to any detailed answers regarding moderation on this forum. You are a guest, and subject to the administration of it and whatever happens along the way without further detail. That's not to say we won't be fair, but no-one owes anyone anything.

A prevailing theme with you seems to be that this is your house and we're guests, so you can do what you want. But everybody on this site is taking the time to come here and make it something, so, yeah, I would say you have the responsibility to be a good host. Which brings me to my next point...

So...are both immature dicks, get called out on it, and have been heavily reprimanded for it.

OK. And?

If certain people, in your own words, are immature dicks, why are they still here? I would rather sit through infinite pages of "zomg Gouku" than one single post filled with some sarcastic bullshit. There's plenty of assholes on this site, just ones who can type and spell.

The fact that people like that are still on this site when you advertise it as a place where everyone is welcome doesn't bode trust, and looking at how you responded to certain people in the early days of DaizEX, I have to say, I distrust you, as a webmaster, because you seem to be a "fake nice person", someone who presents themselves as being open and friendly, but is actually abrupt and rude. I've seen it before. Now, do I have any way of confirming that suspicion? Nope. Hell, I can't even honestly say I dislike you; I've never met you in my life. But I have my doubts. I also question why hardly anyone on here disagrees with you directly; is it because they all agree with you, or is it because they're afraid to?

[VegettoEX]

I don't even really know what to respond to, since it's a little all over the place (which is fine).

I used the word "creepy" in that thread because, like I noted, I wasn't even a part of the conversation for several pages, and there you go telling stories and making up scenarios about me that have nothing to do with the actual subject matter. To some degree I expect and go along with that (I'm as much a "public figure" as you can likely get with the fandom)... but reading through that one thread seemed a little odd. Can't put my finger on it. It was weird.

Everyone's entitled to multiple chances and has the capacity to be cool, friendly folks to chat to here on the forum. Some have crossed that line and are no longer here because of it (like... what?... enough to count on a single hand?). Some still are. It's "take it as it comes" with regard to that. I don't know what to say to you. Am I too lenient? You seem to think so, but other people seem to think the exact opposite. Oh, well. Can't please everyone.

The idea that no-one disagrees with me is preposterous. I don't even get into that many disagreements to begin with, and when I do, it's usually Herms there right schooling me. Hell, my own wife massively disagreed with me just a few podcast episodes ago!

You keep talking on and on and on about me getting angry and seemingly throwing fits... but... it's just not happening. It just isn't. Looking at what examples you use, it's like you take every little statement as these extreme degrees, with no zone in between. You're taking a conversation about a name change in Viz's adaptation of the manga (a conversation where I'm not sure where you're pulling it from -- a forum thread? a podcast episode? what was the context? what was the tone? who was I talking to?), and universally applying that to every other conversation. That's just silly.

I mean, your response of, "Face it, VegettoEX; you're not going to have it your way. You can think what you want, but you're not a god, and not everybody's going to agree with you on this."... isn't that a little hyperbolic and moderately weird to respond with? If I expected everyone to agree with me on every little statement, I'd lock threads the instant I responded, be banning left and right, and likely writing press releases about my conquests which would include charts counting up said agreements.

At the end of the day, you seem to want a personal response (from me?), and whenever I personally respond, it doesn't seem like it helps you out any... but if I didn't respond, well, then I'm not being particularly nice.

So what is it that you actually want? I can't tell.

- Do you just want me to give you the "get out of jail free card" for sayin' "Saiyan" the way it's said in FUNimation's English dub? Sure, you've got it -- I still disagree with you on that, particularly knowing that you know where it stems from and what it probably should be. I'm cool agreeing to disagree. I've made that clear already, though.

- Do you want every rude comment removed from the forum, and give no-one the opportunity to have an "off" day? Well, no -- sorry, but you're out of luck there. We certainly do our best to keep it from happening, but people are people, yourself and I both included.

- Do you want every statement preceded by a clear command of "THIS IS AN OPINION" or "THIS IS A FACT"...? No, that's also not going to happen. As folks have stated, there is absolutely no reason for that. Like I said before, if you are unable to parse what the intent is on your own from the context and everyone else is able to (such as Meri's opinion that a bit of delivery in "Burst Limit" was terrible vs "such and such on page such and such states that such and such"), again, that's all on you, and no-one else.

So what can I do for ya'? I want everyone to have a great time, but you personally keep coming back over and over saying you can't do it. What do you need?

[Eddie]

Relax, man. I myself got a little carried away in this very thread you're quoting. I do think that, on rare occasion, Mike gets slightly carried away. Don't we all, though? Having been a huge fan of this site for a couple of years now, I can tell that ALL admins & mods here are decent folks. I think things got too heated in that thread, and yes, I'm partially to blame. For what it's worth, I actually agree with Mike on most of the issues you seem to have with him. However, I don't think that Mike is always right, as I (attempted, without much success) to explain yesterday. There's no reason to have e-fisticuffs over this, though. Try what I did: Relax, deep breath, say "Yes, I disagree about this Bluma stuff, but things will be fine." Um... maybe you should replace that last part with YOUR issue... This place is generally good times. I think we got carried away due to our passion for the series.

[VegettoEX]

See, that's the thing -- I don't even see anything "heated" in there. Even your, "Mike, you're a fucking hypocrite!" line I took as in jest, yo... of course, I still felt the need to stand up for myself! ^_~

I dunno. Maybe I'm just numb to The Internet, now, and both kindness and rudeness cease to exist for me .

Nah, that's not true... or is it...? Nah... can't be...

Just about everyone here is a pretty cool guy (unless they're female, in which case they're a pretty cool gal). I think so long as you keep that in mind, you don't need to do that excessive "reading into" and "projecting" into statements for meanings that likely don't exist.

[Eddie]

Ah, cool. I'm glad you didn't take my stuff too seriously. I'm not as used to message board etiquette as most here. I was concerned that I offended you, when all I intended was to convey a few small disagreements mixed with a dose of jest. Perhaps a few in-depth pronunciation/romanization podcast topics would be helpful. It seemed like you and Meri disagreed on the Bulma/Bluma stuff, so that's one regular that at least somewhat disagrees with you. If you brought in Herms (and Julian, if available) for an expert on the language aspect, it could probably be quite informative. Throw in some various perspectives from other fans (in addition to Meri) and there could even be an interesting debate to be had. It could serve as a way to have these various language related discussions dealt with in the typical "enlightening & a little entertaining" fashion.

[roidrage]

I don't even really know what to respond to, since it's a little all over the place (which is fine).

I used the word "creepy" in that thread because, like I noted, I wasn't even a part of the conversation for several pages, and there you go telling stories and making up scenarios about me that have nothing to do with the actual subject matter. To some degree I expect and go along with that (I'm as much a "public figure" as you can likely get with the fandom)... but reading through that one thread seemed a little odd. Can't put my finger on it. It was weird.

Everyone's entitled to multiple chances and has the capacity to be cool, friendly folks to chat to here on the forum. Some have crossed that line and are no longer here because of it (like... what?... enough to count on a single hand?). Some still are. It's "take it as it comes" with regard to that. I don't know what to say to you. Am I too lenient? You seem to think so, but other people seem to think the exact opposite. Oh, well. Can't please everyone.

The idea that no-one disagrees with me is preposterous. I don't even get into that many disagreements to begin with, and when I do, it's usually Herms there right schooling me. Hell, my own wife massively disagreed with me just a few podcast episodes ago!

You keep talking on and on and on about me getting angry and seemingly throwing fits... but... it's just not happening. It just isn't. Looking at what examples you use, it's like you take every little statement as these extreme degrees, with no zone in between. You're taking a conversation about a name change in Viz's adaptation of the manga (a conversation where I'm not sure where you're pulling it from -- a forum thread? a podcast episode? what was the context? what was the tone? who was I talking to?), and universally applying that to every other conversation. That's just silly.

I mean, your response of, "Face it, VegettoEX; you're not going to have it your way. You can think what you want, but you're not a god, and not everybody's going to agree with you on this."... isn't that a little hyperbolic and moderately weird to respond with? If I expected everyone to agree with me on every little statement, I'd lock threads the instant I responded, be banning left and right, and likely writing press releases about my conquests which would include charts counting up said agreements.

At the end of the day, you seem to want a personal response (from me?), and whenever I personally respond, it doesn't seem like it helps you out any... but if I didn't respond, well, then I'm not being particularly nice.

So what is it that you actually want? I can't tell.

- Do you just want me to give you the "get out of jail free card" for sayin' "Saiyan" the way it's said in FUNimation's English dub? Sure, you've got it -- I still disagree with you on that, particularly knowing that you know where it stems from and what it probably should be. I'm cool agreeing to disagree. I've made that clear already, though.

- Do you want every rude comment removed from the forum, and give no-one the opportunity to have an "off" day? Well, no -- sorry, but you're out of luck there. We certainly do our best to keep it from happening, but people are people, yourself and I both included.

- Do you want every statement preceded by a clear command of "THIS IS AN OPINION" or "THIS IS A FACT"...? No, that's also not going to happen. As folks have stated, there is absolutely no reason for that. Like I said before, if you are unable to parse what the intent is on your own from the context and everyone else is able to (such as Meri's opinion that a bit of delivery in "Burst Limit" was terrible vs "such and such on page such and such states that such and such"), again, that's all on you, and no-one else.

So what can I do for ya'? I want everyone to have a great time, but you personally keep coming back over and over saying you can't do it. What do you need?

For your first point; I was referring to anyone disagreeing directly with you on these forums. As far as I can tell, that doesn't happen often. Thankfully, I'm now a lot less inclined to believe it stems from any fear of you, considering how you responded. As for the podcasts, you might disagree on some of the smaller issues, but, again, for the most part it seems a fairly united front. It's when you bring in guests (like Gozar, a dub fan) that things get shaken up a little. Not that there's a vast conspiracy at work here, that's just the way it sounds. It's your podcast, anyhow, so you can do as you see fit.

I see where you're coming from on the second point, but I'm still not so sure. Anybody can have an off day, but the members I'm referring to are quite consistent in their behavior. That being said, it's downright stupid to try and hand you a "them or me" ultimatum, which I won't attempt; if I can't live and let live, I might as well just leave, right? So I still think you're a little too lenient...but hey, maybe that's better for me !

If I sounded hostile (and I have to admit, I was getting there), it's because of a couple of different things. One is, talking to me about something can often require two conversations. The first one ends with us on different wavelengths, and it takes a second one to come to an understanding; combine my relative lack of social experience with the default "anonymous asshole" mentality of the Internet, and you have an inexperienced, sometimes paranoid user who needs some real dialogue (which you've duly provided) to understand people. It's a fault of mine that obviously needs work.

So, to answer your question...really, nothing that you haven't already done and/or are willing to do. Clearly, all I wanted was for somebody to actually hear me out. Go figure. Guess that settles it then.

[dbgtFO]

I'm not sure what to call this

"Keep this for hilarity Part II"?

I also question why hardly anyone on here disagrees with you directly; is it because they all agree with you, or is it because they're afraid to?

In my case it's because I'm not interested in the same aspects of Dragon Ball that Vegetto EX is, I guess. Pronounciation of names etc. don't interest me as much as a good in universe debate like how does Buu's absorptions work or something like that.
I guess it's also because, I don't really care about actually debating that whole aspect. I like getting the info, so I can try to have fun with pronouncing it myself, but actually debating it and pointing out hypocrisies etc. etc.?
Nah.

It's not really my thing.

And it's hardly true that nobody disagrees with him directly, there was the whole Bluma/Bulma business a while back and the current thread about pronounciation of Saiyan. There are bound to be way more examples, but these are just recent ones.

But people being outright afraid? I find it unlikely at the current moment, but I guess there's bound to be some people, who have so much respect for authority, that they probably won't outright disagree with him.