Most overrated characters in terms of power?

[Michsi]

If anything, I don't see Krillin being able to block Buu's attack like Tenshinhan did.

He did it with the most haxed attack in the series. And pushing a blast from the side doesn't mean much. If he had actually gotten in front of the blast and sent it back that might mean something, but otherwise it's not proof of anything IMO.

I'm well aware that pushing an attack form the side isn't the same as straight up blocking it and I'm not saiying he could have. But it's still hard for me to see Krillin being able to do the same. And I don't really understand what makes an attack hax and what not, but the fact remains that the Kikoho is a powerful technique that he can use well and I don't see why it shouldn't be taken into consideration when talking about Tenshinhan's competence as a fighter.

[CatouttaHell]

It's not called a feeling. It's called knowing WELL the story and the characters.

Not really. It's a thing that goes either way. I know the story very well and I believe Chibi Boo > Ultimate Gohan > SSjin 3 Goku > Shin Boo.

Coola could never know Freezer's 100% power because he never used it in his life... Coola final form may easily surpass 50% Freezer, but the muscled one is another story...
Final Form Coola probably doesn't surpass 130 millions... SSJ Goku, around 150 millions, defeats him easy... The same as Trunks with metal Freezer... Metal Freezer may be also 130 millions but it doesn't matter as long as a SSJ fights at full strength...
It's metal Coola who is actually probably above 200 millions since neither SSJ Vegeta can defeat him one on one...

Coola stated Base Goku did well enough to have defeated his brother. The same Coola who didn't bat an eye at Piccolo, who was in the millions. Movie 5 Base Goku should be at least at 120 million going by statements IMO. I personally have him at 150 million, Final Form Coola at 5 billion, and Metal Coola at 14 billion.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I think Tenshinhan was only able to eradicate Boo's blast because it was intending to kill Dende, so it can't have been that strong. Plus, remember that the same thing happened in the Freeza arc. An injured Piccolo was able to deflect the blast that third-form Freeza had rebounded at Gohan.

[Michsi]

Yeah, but I don't think the difference between second form Freeza and Piccolo is as great as Buu and Tenshinhan.
Nevertheless, even if I ignore that scene, it's still hard to see the Krillin>Ten side of things.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Yeah, but I don't think the difference between second form Freeza and Piccolo is as great as Buu and Tenshinhan.
Nevertheless, even if I ignore that scene, it's still hard to see the Krillin>Ten side of things.

I don't think it's about power difference. They're both far weaker than the opponents they're deflecting a blast from. Not to mention Piccolo had recently been severely injured by third-form Freeza. But Tenshinhan still deflected a blast from Boo that was only intended to kill Dende, so I wouldn't expect it to be that strong.

I'm not disagreeing with you, btw. Although I don't think that, in the Cell arc, Kuririn was stronger than Tenshinhan because he had his latent power awakened by the Great Elder, which is where Yamcha got his opinion from. But, in the Boo arc, I think Tenshinhan was stronger than Kuririn because, while Kuririn had stopped training, Tenshinhan had continued to train with Chaozu.

[dbgtFO]

The same Coola who didn't bat an eye at Piccolo, who was in the millions.

Coola didn't fight Piccolo directly, so I doubt he got any idea about his power other than "above Sauzer's."

[CatouttaHell]

Coola didn't fight Piccolo directly, so I doubt he got any idea about his power other than "above Sauzer's."

Coola could likely sense Ki so he knew what he was talking about IMO. Don't forget he never wore a scouter and yet he was constantly finding where the Z-Senshi were and showed up to save Sauza's arse twice over. Also Metal Coola could use Shunkan Ido, which requires Ki sensing. We're never explicitly told that Coola can sense Ki but it seems very, very likely that he can IMO, and considering that he'd most likely know how powerful Piccolo really was.

I'm starting to think it's possible that everybody in Movie 5 is just nerfed and that Goku gets a Zenkai that puts him somewhere around his canon number of 3,000,000 though and that he's at 180,000 or so before. That would actually explain Coola's statements without putting Base Goku at 150,000,000 and would make Sauza and co's official numbers work better.

[goldsaint13]

Not really. It's a thing that goes either way. I know the story very well and I believe Chibi Boo > Ultimate Gohan > SSjin 3 Goku > Shin Boo.

Well... Then you should at least have many doubts about Goku's statement about being able to defeat Kid Buu with his max SSJ3 power...

And also you should be convicend that Kid Buu had never fought seriously...

I have no reason to doubt what Goku said and neither the fact that he actually manages to fight on par with Kid Buu as SSJ3...

Coola stated Base Goku did well enough to have defeated his brother. The same Coola who didn't bat an eye at Piccolo, who was in the millions. Movie 5 Base Goku should be at least at 120 million going by statements IMO. I personally have him at 150 million, Final Form Coola at 5 billion, and Metal Coola at 14 billion.

Goku may have mastered Kaiohken x20 that makes him as strong as 50% Freezer, but those levels are not possible, that is the early SSJ Goku before the Android saga and not much time after his battle with Freezer... And being that Goku, he hardly reach 200 millions...

Simply Coola underestimated his brother... He knew about his tiny 50% power, but not his 100% bulked form...

The same for Metal Coola... He is weaker than C17 surely... He is defeated by Android saga Vegeta and Android saga Goku... But they will never defeat C17 that way...

[Rocketman]

And I don't really understand what makes an attack hax and what not, but the fact remains that the Kikoho is a powerful technique that he can use well and I don't see why it shouldn't be taken into consideration when talking about Tenshinhan's competence as a fighter.

For the same reason that Krillin's insta-kill Kienzan is usually discounted.

[goldsaint13]

I'm starting to think it's possible that everybody in Movie 5 is just nerfed and that Goku gets a Zenkai that puts him somewhere around his canon number of 3,000,000 though and that he's at 180,000 or so before. That would actually explain Coola's statements without putting Base Goku at 150,000,000 and would make Sauza and co's official numbers work better.

If the could constantly abuse Zenkai all along, then there wouldn't be any problem even for the destroyed future... Trunks would have needed only one of those boosts to easily beat the Androids...

Zenkai has a limit... When Goku exits the healing machine having reached 3 millions, he has a power that scares himself and clearly reached his limit with the strategy of Zenkai that infact is never again abused by anyone in the following sagas... The only thing they can do is find new transformations and improve those they already have, but they never surpass even Freezer in base form, they would always need SSJ, may it the be calm Full Power SSJ, but always SSJ it is...

The Goku fighting Cooler is the Goku just returned from Yardrath or at best the Android saga Goku after the 3 years of training or so...

Movies always use characters from the original story and with a power level taken from a part of the original story... That Goku is an early SSJ, and they never reached more that a couple of hundred millions of power without the RoSaT...
Neither Gohan from the future, training and training for years (and we know his potential is above anyone), had gone above 150 millions, the level of the Freezer saga SSJ Goku...
I can give the Cooler movie Goku a, let's say, 200 millions, like Vegeta (imagine he trained effectively without the heart illness), but not that much different from that...

[CatouttaHell]

Well... Then you should at least have many doubts about Goku's statement about being able to defeat Kid Buu with his max SSJ3 power...

And also you should be convicend that Kid Buu had never fought seriously...

I have no reason to doubt what Goku said and neither the fact that he actually manages to fight on par with Kid Buu as SSJ3...

Chibi Boo was treating Goku like a total joke. I believe the scene where Goku fires a Kamehameha that does nothing to the Genki Dama, then grabs it with his bare hands and starts pushing it back, implies he wasn't trying up until that point. There's no instances in the series where somebody can do with their bare hands what they absolutely could not do with an amplified Ki attack. It's also interesting how Goku said he could defeat Chibi Boo with his maximum SSjin 3 power (which he had been using the whole time but whatever) and then at the end said several times he'd train and improve greatly so that next time he could beat Boo. All of these statements were after the aforementioned Kamehameha/Genki Dama event, so I believe Chibi Boo is a good deal above Goku personally.

In the Daizenshuu 2's Final Battles section it calls the Boo that Goku defeated "the strongest in the universe" and says that if Goku and Vegeta lost it would be the end of the universe. I take that to mean Chibi Boo > Ultimate Gohan and have Goku right in between SSjin 3 Gotenks and Shin Boo personally.

If the could constantly abuse Zenkai all along, then there wouldn't be any problem even for the destroyed future... Trunks would have needed only one of those boosts to easily beat the Androids...

Zenkai has a limit...

I agree with you, but while we both know this fact perfectly, the story hadn't progressed far enough for that to have been evident when Movie 5 was made. Toei didn't know Toriyama was done giving out giant Zenkais left and right so they seemingly went "eh, let's just make Coola way stronger than Freeza and then give Goku another Zenkai so he can battle him." I don't like this kind of bloating either but that's what the statements in Movie 5 imply, which is why I'm thinking of just assuming everyone got nerfed and that Goku getting a Zenkai and then turning SSjin means his power mirrors his canon self on Namek.

Movies always use characters from the original story and with a power level taken from a part of the original story.

That's not true. We only get Battle Powers in a single movie (Movie 3) and none of them correspond to any canon version of the characters.

[Michsi]

And I don't really understand what makes an attack hax and what not, but the fact remains that the Kikoho is a powerful technique that he can use well and I don't see why it shouldn't be taken into consideration when talking about Tenshinhan's competence as a fighter.

For the same reason that Krillin's insta-kill Kienzan is usually discounted.

The difference still being that Ten uses his trump card often and usually effectively, while Krillin doesn't.

It's the same with the makkankosappo, but at least there is still the excuse that it might take too long to charge.
And even if the Kienzan is more effective than the Kikoho, if Krillin himself isn't as good at using it as Tenshinhan uses the Kikoho, it matters little.

[Rocketman]

have Goku right above SSjin 3 Gotenks

I just can't buy that Fusion+SS3 is weaker than SS3, if Fusion is so super special awesome that Goku was willing to gamble everything on the kids using it to defeat Buu without SS3.

[Fox666]

Movies always use characters from the original story and with a power level taken from a part of the original story.

That's not true. We only get Battle Powers in a single movie (Movie 3) and none of them correspond to any canon version of the characters.

Kuririn had 10,000 which actually matches the manga in a poorly way (the manga actually mentions "over 10,000" and according to the guides it is 13,000).

But I have no idea how Piccolo has 18,000 and Goku 30,000. Interestingly these aren't new numbers, they were used in the main series (in both cases for Vegeta).

[CatouttaHell]

I just can't buy that Fusion+SS3 is weaker than SS3, if Fusion is so super special awesome that Goku was willing to gamble everything on the kids using it to defeat Buu without SS3.

Yeah I can see why you would find that ridiculous, and I'm not saying I'm any more right than you are but that's just how I feel. I think somewhere along the line there was a retcon. Toriyama admitted he wanted to make Gohan the hero then decided he wasn't fit for the role. I mean at first you have implications of SSjin Gotenks > SSjin 3 Goku, then when Goku becomes the hero again you have him suggesting bringing Gohan AND SSjin 3 Gotenks in to fight a guy he supposedly thought he could beat. I mean if SSjin Gotenks was still > SSjin 3 Goku why bring them both in?Either one of them would break both Goku and Boo over their knee without even trying. And then Vegeta dismisses that idea in favour of the tedious and dangerous method of creating a Genki Dama.

We know Vegeta is a brilliant strategist, so for him to suggest creating a Genki Dama instead of bringing in two guys who could easily roflstomp Boo would be completely out-of-character and just plain retarded. I'm not saying that proves Chibi Boo > Gohan, but that at least proves Chibi Boo isn't fodder to them and there's the huge threat of them being absorbed or otherwise screwing up.

Not to mention you have the Daizenshuu statement that Gotenks leveled up so much in the RoSaT that his power surpassed Vegeta and co. It's really up to interpretation but if you interpret "leveled up" to mean his SSjin forms that could mean that under the retcon, SSjin 2 Vegeta > SSjin 2 Gotenks. Not to mention Buff Boo was flat-out stated to be at least a good chunk above Shin Boo. Buff Boo is Chibi Boo with South Kaioshin added to him, and no Kaioshin could pull out the Z-Sword which is a feat that, depending on your beliefs, SSjin or SSjin 2 Gohan did. Even if you go by the minimalist approach, a power like that added to Chibi Boo just isn't going to change much regarding his power. It's not impossible that South Kaioshin magically granted him more power than he actually had but that would be completely unprecedented.

[Rocketman]

I think somewhere along the line there was a retcon.

Kid Buu is the retcon. A retcon, I feel, to knock Buu down to a level that Goku could fight him without just bringing Fat Buu back.

[Fox666]

Not to mention you have the Daizenshuu statement that Gotenks leveled up so much in the RoSaT that his power surpassed Vegeta and co. It's really up to interpretation but if you interpret "leveled up" to mean his SSjin forms that could mean that under the retcon, SSjin 2 Vegeta > SSjin 2 Gotenks. Not to mention Buff Boo was flat-out stated to be at least a good chunk above Shin Boo. Buff Boo is Chibi Boo with South Kaioshin added to him, and no Kaioshin could pull out the Z-Sword which is a feat that, depending on your beliefs, SSjin or SSjin 2 Gohan did. Even if you go by the minimalist approach, a power like that added to Chibi Boo just isn't going to change much regarding his power. It's not impossible that South Kaioshin magically granted him more power than he actually had but that would be completely unprecedented.

It's not "open for interpretation". Gotenks surely surpassed Vegeta, since he can turn Super Saiyan 3. I don't see why people bring up the question if that refers to Gotenks in his Super Saiyan or base form...

[CatouttaHell]

It's not "open for interpretation". Gotenks surely surpassed Vegeta, since he can turn Super Saiyan 3. I don't see why people bring up the question if that refers to Gotenks in his Super Saiyan or base form...

Yeah I mean it's unknown if only his SSjin 3 is above Vegeta, as opposed to his SSjin 2 or his SSjin too is what I mean.

[Rostir]

I don't understand how two fused Super Saiyan children could not be stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta.

[Fox666]

Well, going by the Daizenshuu line, Gotenks only surpassed Vegeta after training in the Room of Space and Time.

It's a little strange if you consider than the fusion supposedly should be greater than the sum of powers.