Most overrated characters in terms of power?

[rereboy]

It's not "open for interpretation". Gotenks surely surpassed Vegeta, since he can turn Super Saiyan 3. I don't see why people bring up the question if that refers to Gotenks in his Super Saiyan or base form...

Yeah I mean it's unknown if only his SSjin 3 is above Vegeta, as opposed to his SSjin 2 or his SSjin too is what I mean.

Its common sense that Gotenks should be stronger in the same corresponding state than any unfused saiyan.

Meaning that Base Gotenks > Base Vegeta or Base Goku; SSJ Gotenks > SSJ Vegeta or SSJ Goku; and so on.

The only thing unknown is whether or not they surpass in one state the higher level state of a unfused saiyan. For example, its unknown if SSJ Gotenks > SSJ2 Vegeta. Looking at the manga, it could go either way.

[dbgtFO]

For example, its unknown if SSJ Gotenks > SSJ2 Vegeta. Looking at the manga, it could go either way.

I completely disagree.
From all the statements and the way things transpired, I think it's pretty clear that Super Saiyan Gotenks is far beyond SSJ 2 Goku/SSJ 2 Vegeta, enough to be able to defeat Fat Buu.
I don't know why Daizenshuu 7 said what they did, but from the looks of Super Saiyan Gotenks being weaker than the SSJ 2s is not what the story was trying to tell us, if you ask me.
Blah.

[CatouttaHell]

Well like I said, I feel there's a retcon somewhere along the line. SSjin Gotenks > SSjin 3 Goku seems to be the case until Toriyama decides he wants Goku as the hero after all, and then IMO it starts to look like SSjin Goku > SSjin Gotenks. I mean Goku said he thought he could kill Chibi Boo with a fully charged Kamehameha, then later on says this:

Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P7.4
Context: after Vegeta has the Earth brought back with the dragonballs
Goku: “Oh, I know! You’ll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can fight.”
Vegeta: “No.”

I've also seen this translation, which is apparently an equally valid one due to the original Japanese saying "Gohan ya Gotenks" which implies there are other people/things that could be mentioned and implies others:

Goku: Oh, I get it! You were thinking of bring Gohan, Gotenks, and the rest back to life and having them fight for us.

If Goku is so far below Gotenks that even SSjin Gotenks > SSjin 2 Goku, why would he not only want to bring both Gohan and Gotenks in together but is so desperate he's thinking of bringing in fodder like Piccolo or Tenshinhan or whoever else he's thinking of when he thought that he himself could defeat Boo?

Not to mention Vegeta claiming Goku is the only one capable of fighting Boo. Gohan and the rest were dead when he said that, but so was Vegeta and he was on the battlefield with Goku. If Enma Daio-sama was willing to send an evil bastard like Vegeta back to the living world, with a new body and all, due to how big of a threat Boo was, why would he not be willing to send Gohan and co back?

I mean I'll admit SSjin Goku > SSjin Gotenks is a ridiculous change of events and it makes no sense whatsoever and thus most people will never believe this, but this is the Boo Arc after all. Where a guy gets turned into a candy and retains his power, sentience, and ability to talk. To me it seems that SSjin 3 Goku > SSjin 3 Gotenks and maybe even Ultimate Gohan is implied. So even though that's a completely ridiculous notion considering the previous parts of the arc I go with that. It just seems like there was a huge retcon put in place sometime around when Vegetto defused IMO.

The Daizenshuu said SSjin Gotenks (Pre) < Vegeta and co and going by the earlier parts of the Boo Arc that'd be utter nonsense, as would that quote regarding Chibi Boo.

[jackjack]

Kid Boo. I blame the anime calling him the strongest Boo form.

[goldsaint13]

Chibi Boo was treating Goku like a total joke. I believe the scene where Goku fires a Kamehameha that does nothing to the Genki Dama, then grabs it with his bare hands and starts pushing it back, implies he wasn't trying up until that point. There's no instances in the series where somebody can do with their bare hands what they absolutely could not do with an amplified Ki attack. It's also interesting how Goku said he could defeat Chibi Boo with his maximum SSjin 3 power (which he had been using the whole time but whatever) and then at the end said several times he'd train and improve greatly so that next time he could beat Boo. All of these statements were after the aforementioned Kamehameha/Genki Dama event, so I believe Chibi Boo is a good deal above Goku personally.

I can't absolutely prove this theory wrong... As long as Gohan > Gotenks > Goku, everything is fine...

It may be possible that Kid Buu always played around during the battle... I personally prefer to trust what Goku said... Kid Buu was an enemy possible to defeat, unlike Super Buu...

They decided to use the Genkidama only to let the humans do the work, but they could have solved things in other ways...

In the Daizenshuu 2's Final Battles section it calls the Boo that Goku defeated "the strongest in the universe" and says that if Goku and Vegeta lost it would be the end of the universe. I take that to mean Chibi Boo > Ultimate Gohan and have Goku right in between SSjin 3 Gotenks and Shin Boo personally.

Kid Buu actually was the strongest enemy by that moment, since Super Buu was gone... That doesn't prove anything... Goku himself was the strongest because Gotenks and Gohan were dead...


That wouldn't be the end though anyway...

Don't forget Kaiohshin had Potara...


And feel free to imagine Kid Buu having the power you think............... He'll get badly pwned by Vegetto without questions anyway...

I agree with you, but while we both know this fact perfectly, the story hadn't progressed far enough for that to have been evident when Movie 5 was made. Toei didn't know Toriyama was done giving out giant Zenkais left and right so they seemingly went "eh, let's just make Coola way stronger than Freeza and then give Goku another Zenkai so he can battle him." I don't like this kind of bloating either but that's what the statements in Movie 5 imply, which is why I'm thinking of just assuming everyone got nerfed and that Goku getting a Zenkai and then turning SSjin means his power mirrors his canon self on Namek.

I think that Zenkai stops working when you get in the ranges of millions... Goku and Vegeta stopped to get better by Zenkai when they supassed 1 million... Super Saiyan is there because Zenkai can't cover the same range...
Freezer could never be beaten by a base form Saiyan that is not a fused character... Neither in Buu's saga...
I understood your point, but I think there's nothing to think that Movie 5 Goku is that much different from Android saga Goku... His look is that of an early SSJ... Cooler could never know the true max power of his bother... The Movie is not canon but it's like all that happened before is, so the battle on Namek with SSJ Goku vs Freezer took place... I may accept that it could be a Goku right before the RoSaT that never had the heart sickness, but his power is still in the ranges of early SSJs...
I don't remenber any dialogue of the Movie though... But I always try to argument keeping in mind the canon manga rules...

That's not true. We only get Battle Powers in a single movie (Movie 3) and none of them correspond to any canon version of the characters.

Yes, but they makes sense... Movie 3 is like Nappa never killed anyone and they all remained on Earth to train and not gone to Namek... Those are the levels they probably would be able to reach, like in early Namek saga... But you'll never see Cell saga levels in a movie supposedly set after the Saiyan saga...

I just can't buy that Fusion+SS3 is weaker than SS3, if Fusion is so super special awesome that Goku was willing to gamble everything on the kids using it to defeat Buu without SS3.

Of course!!!!!!!!!

Gotenks is unquestionably stronger than Goku, there's no chance to deny it, it's just enough to read the fusion chapters to understand it...

Goku was thinking of making SSJ1 Gotenks fight Fat Buu knowing that he personally wouln't have chances as a SSJ2 either... If Goku wanted the kids dead, he could have killed them himself...

Yeah I can see why you would find that ridiculous, and I'm not saying I'm any more right than you are but that's just how I feel. I think somewhere along the line there was a retcon. Toriyama admitted he wanted to make Gohan the hero then decided he wasn't fit for the role. I mean at first you have implications of SSjin Gotenks > SSjin 3 Goku, then when Goku becomes the hero again you have him suggesting bringing Gohan AND SSjin 3 Gotenks in to fight a guy he supposedly thought he could beat. I mean if SSjin Gotenks was still > SSjin 3 Goku why bring them both in?Either one of them would break both Goku and Boo over their knee without even trying. And then Vegeta dismisses that idea in favour of the tedious and dangerous method of creating a Genki Dama.

I don't say that SSJ1 Gotenks is stronger than SSJ3 Goku... But he is absolutely stronger than SSJ1 Goku... The same as both SSJ3...

Don't focus too much on Gotenks AND Gohan... It's just to say...

Remember that Goku suggested to bring them as a last resort, so if he was desperate because he lost SSJ3 energy, he should have trusted them a lot...

Vegeta on his own, didn't dismissed the idea of the *true* Buu's saga heroes ( ) because he didn't trust them... Vegeta wanted specifically to make the humans win that battle... If he would have wanted to call Gohan and Gotenks, then it would have been better to simply use the Fusion with Goku and pwn Kid Buu easily...
But Vegeta wanted simply a different solution unlike they are used to win the battles...

As the levels of strength are defines, Gotenks and Gohan would defeat with ease anyone that Goku barely could...

We know Vegeta is a brilliant strategist, so for him to suggest creating a Genki Dama instead of bringing in two guys who could easily roflstomp Boo would be completely out-of-character and just plain retarded. I'm not saying that proves Chibi Boo > Gohan, but that at least proves Chibi Boo isn't fodder to them and there's the huge threat of them being absorbed or otherwise screwing up.

That's indeed true... Kid Buu could actually have absorbed Gohan or Gotenks if they would have badly cornered him...

But Vegeta's strategy in this specific case is not to choose the best way to win, but the most righteous...
The best would have been fusion... Even when Goku lost his SSJ power... Base form Gogeta would have been enough...
But Vegeta gave the chance to earthlings to fight for their own lives directly... It's just something different...

Not to mention you have the Daizenshuu statement that Gotenks leveled up so much in the RoSaT that his power surpassed Vegeta and co. It's really up to interpretation but if you interpret "leveled up" to mean his SSjin forms that could mean that under the retcon, SSjin 2 Vegeta > SSjin 2 Gotenks.

Pre RoSaT Gotenks was limited to SSJ1... That's why he might have been equal and not above SSJ2 Vegeta...
Retcon can't change things... We should find a compromise... Retcon may negate SSJ1 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku, but not Gotenks > Goku...

And also "surpassed Vegeta and co. means Goku too...

Not to mention Buff Boo was flat-out stated to be at least a good chunk above Shin Boo. Buff Boo is Chibi Boo with South Kaioshin added to him, and no Kaioshin could pull out the Z-Sword which is a feat that, depending on your beliefs, SSjin or SSjin 2 Gohan did. Even if you go by the minimalist approach, a power like that added to Chibi Boo just isn't going to change much regarding his power. It's not impossible that South Kaioshin magically granted him more power than he actually had but that would be completely unprecedented.

I actually think that Super Buu is Kid Buu + Fat Buu (they detached Fat Buu from Super Buu's body like they did with Gohan and the others)...
The true retcon it's, I think, more about Buu's forms than power levels... Kid Buu is invented right on the spot just to give SSJ3 Goku someone to fight... The fact is that I think Super Buu is Kid Buu + Fat Buu, not Mr. Bu... Remember Vegeta saying Fat Buu could again generate another Evil Buu... The retcon was that detaching Fat Buu would have had to bring Mr. Buu or Evil Buu, not Kid Buu...
Maybe the evil part of Buu taking the upper hand had awakened Kid Buu's power that was hidden, so instead of Super Buu having the same power as Fat Buu mut only more evil, he turns to be much stronger... That's because I think Kid Buu's power just added up itself to the equation...

Like...

Fat Buu: power 10 (6 points good, 4 points evil)

They divided...

It turned:

Evil Buu: power 6 (pure evil)
Mr. Buu: power 4 (pure good)

They recombined... But instead of turning 10 again (but 6 points evil and 4 points good), Kid Buu's power emerged while it was hidden, thanks to the influence of the evil part generated...
They recombined inside as Fat Buu with a power of 10, but all good, and the power of Kid Buu become the base, and with a power of, maybe 20...
That's this way the fusion of the base of Kid Buu, with 20 points of evil, and the absorbtion of Fat Buu, 10 points of good... The total is Super Buu with a power of 30, a powered up Kid Buu but less evil and more calm (he is 2/3 evil and 1/3 good), that's why detaching Fat Buu it turns to be Kid Buu and not Evil Buu...

Kid Buu is the retcon. A retcon, I feel, to knock Buu down to a level that Goku could fight him without just bringing Fat Buu back.

Exactly!!! That's the retcon... Not really the power of Gotenks that stays firmly above Goku's...

It's not "open for interpretation". Gotenks surely surpassed Vegeta, since he can turn Super Saiyan 3. I don't see why people bring up the question if that refers to Gotenks in his Super Saiyan or base form...

Surpassed Vegeta and the others, including Goku, whom he couldn't surpass without SSJ3...
He was limited to SSJ1 before and thus I can understand he may not be above SSJ2 Vegeta...

I don't understand how two fused Super Saiyan children could not be stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta.

They probably are... It's what Goku suggested...

It's a little strange if you consider than the fusion supposedly should be greater than the sum of powers.

It is... But being limited to SSJ1 and being Goten and Trunks much weaker than Vegeta, I may accept that SSJ1 Gotenks could be not too far from SSJ2 Vegeta...

Its common sense that Gotenks should be stronger in the same corresponding state than any unfused saiyan.

He absolutely is!!!

The only thing unknown is whether or not they surpass in one state the higher level state of a unfused saiyan.

That's the point...

SSJ2 itself is not such a big thing... Only doubles the power... SSJ3 creates a way bigger gap...

I completely disagree.
From all the statements and the way things transpired, I think it's pretty clear that Super Saiyan Gotenks is far beyond SSJ 2 Goku/SSJ 2 Vegeta, enough to be able to defeat Fat Buu.
I don't know why Daizenshuu 7 said what they did, but from the looks of Super Saiyan Gotenks being weaker than the SSJ 2s is not what the story was trying to tell us, if you ask me.
Blah.

It's like you said...

It can be explained because Daizenshuu said Vegeta and the others, including Goku... And the fact Gotenks doesn't surpass Goku until RoSaT is acceptable...

Well like I said, I feel there's a retcon somewhere along the line. SSjin Gotenks > SSjin 3 Goku seems to be the case until Toriyama decides he wants Goku as the hero after all, and then IMO it starts to look like SSjin Goku > SSjin Gotenks. I mean Goku said he thought he could kill Chibi Boo with a fully charged Kamehameha, then later on says this:

Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P7.4
Context: after Vegeta has the Earth brought back with the dragonballs
Goku: “Oh, I know! You’ll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can fight.”
Vegeta: “No.”

I've also seen this translation, which is apparently an equally valid one due to the original Japanese saying "Gohan ya Gotenks" which implies there are other people/things that could be mentioned and implies others:

Goku: Oh, I get it! You were thinking of bring Gohan, Gotenks, and the rest back to life and having them fight for us.

If Goku is so far below Gotenks that even SSjin Gotenks > SSjin 2 Goku, why would he not only want to bring both Gohan and Gotenks in together but is so desperate he's thinking of bringing in fodder like Piccolo or Tenshinhan or whoever else he's thinking of when he thought that he himself could defeat Boo?

It's only a general phrase, it's implied that if Goku asked to use the last wish to bring them to help, they would have won, because they were in a cornered situation... Anyway... The retcon could be actual, but not by those terms... It's like you are making Freezer stronger than Cell...
It might be that SSJ1 Gotenks is not anymore stronger than SSJ3 Goku... But absolutely not if they are compared with the same forms...

Not to mention Vegeta claiming Goku is the only one capable of fighting Boo. Gohan and the rest were dead when he said that, but so was Vegeta and he was on the battlefield with Goku. If Enma Daio-sama was willing to send an evil bastard like Vegeta back to the living world, with a new body and all, due to how big of a threat Boo was, why would he not be willing to send Gohan and co back?

They would have...

But Goku and Vegeta wouldn't have lasted the necessary time to let this happen... Kid Buu would have destroyed the whole Otherworld before it could have been done... A faster solution would have been needed... Vegeta died against Fat Buu but he is sent by Shins only a lot of time after his death...

I mean I'll admit SSjin Goku > SSjin Gotenks is a ridiculous change of events and it makes no sense whatsoever and thus most people will never believe this, but this is the Boo Arc after all. Where a guy gets turned into a candy and retains his power, sentience, and ability to talk. To me it seems that SSjin 3 Goku > SSjin 3 Gotenks and maybe even Ultimate Gohan is implied. So even though that's a completely ridiculous notion considering the previous parts of the arc I go with that. It just seems like there was a huge retcon put in place sometime around when Vegetto defused IMO.

Being like bringing Freezer above Cell, then it's like trowing into fire all the Buu's saga... The story ends with Cell...

I think a small retcon (not too small anyway ) like FROM SSJ1 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku TO SSJ1 Gotenks > SSJ1 Goku could be accepted... But the one you imagined would fuck everything up...

I don't like the concept of retcon either way... To me things are simpler... Gotenks could match/defeat Super Buu... Goku said he would never be able to beat Super Buu... That happens when the supposed retcon was already active... But Goku said Gotenks is stronger than him anyway... So where's the problem?

Just interpret everything with what Goku said in the Fusion saga, with Gotenks stronger than him like it's obvious...

The worst that could happen is that Super Buu > Kid Buu, but it's what is likely to be... But if you want to think that Kid Buu fought at 10% of his power, you can even go that way...

The Daizenshuu said SSjin Gotenks (Pre) < Vegeta and co and going by the earlier parts of the Boo Arc that'd be utter nonsense, as would that quote regarding Chibi Boo.

Not as long as "and co." includes Goku...

Kid Boo. I blame anime calling him the strongest Boo form.

By that time he was... Fat Buu was weaker, Super Buu was gone...

[dbgtFO]

I completely disagree.
From all the statements and the way things transpired, I think it's pretty clear that Super Saiyan Gotenks is far beyond SSJ 2 Goku/SSJ 2 Vegeta, enough to be able to defeat Fat Buu.
I don't know why Daizenshuu 7 said what they did, but from the looks of Super Saiyan Gotenks being weaker than the SSJ 2s is not what the story was trying to tell us, if you ask me.
Blah.

It's like you said...

It can be explained because Daizenshuu said Vegeta and the others, including Goku... And the fact Gotenks doesn't surpass Goku until RoSaT is acceptable...

Yeah that's how I take that quote.

Kid Boo. I blame anime calling him the strongest Boo form.

By that time he was... Fat Buu was weaker, Super Buu was gone...

Actually in the anime Goku directly compares Kid Buu to all the previous Buus.

[jackjack]

Kid Boo treating Goku like a joke? (Come on, nao.) If anything, I'd place Goku above this guy.

[CatouttaHell]

I can't absolutely prove this theory wrong... As long as Gohan > Gotenks > Goku, everything is fine...

It may be possible that Kid Buu always played around during the battle... I personally prefer to trust what Goku said... Kid Buu was an enemy possible to defeat, unlike Super Buu...

They decided to use the Genkidama only to let the humans do the work, but they could have solved things in other ways...

Goku and Vegeta seriously underestimated Chibi Boo. When he first appeared even Vegeta was laughing at him, which would mean they thought he was below Mr. Boo in terms of power. Not to mention even when they started realising his power they still went and crushed the last Potaras. If they hadn't gotten lucky with the Genki Dama actually succeeding the whole universe would've been destroyed by their sheer stupidity. With Shin Boo they were inside his body and had Gohan and co's lives to worry about. With Chibi Boo the situation was far more lax and they got way too carried away.

Kid Buu actually was the strongest enemy by that moment, since Super Buu was gone... That doesn't prove anything... Goku himself was the strongest because Gotenks and Gohan were dead...

It didn't say anything about him being the strongest enemy in that instance, just the strongest. And it was talking about when Goku defeated him, so it's taking Gohan into account.

Defeat Buu!
Goku fought with the revived Buu. Goku tried to have the next generation resolve this problem, but in the end he was the one who defeated Buu, the strongest in the universe, after being resurrected by receiving the life of the Dai-Kaioshin.

So if Chibi Boo at the time he died was the strongest in the universe, then Chibi Boo > Ultimate Gohan.

The fierce battle in the Kaioshin Realm becomes the greatest decisive battle in all the Universe!!
Goku, Vegeta, and the original Buu head into the final battle with the pure Majin Buu. If they were to lose here, then the universe would have no future forevermore.

The Daizenshuu also says that if Goku and Vegeta were to lose the universe would have no future. That goes along well with Vegeta's manga statement that Goku is the only one capable of fighting Boo. If he were to die then nobody would be able to stop Chibi Boo.

That wouldn't be the end though anyway...

Don't forget Kaiohshin had Potara...


And feel free to imagine Kid Buu having the power you think............... He'll get badly pwned by Vegetto without questions anyway...

Yes, I'm not denying that Vegetto would beat anybody in the DBZverse without even trying. Vegetto >>> Gohan-Boo >>> Chibi Boo. But all of the Kaioshin's Potara had been destroyed by Goku and Vegeta because of their Saiya-jin pride crap.

I think that Zenkai stops working when you get in the ranges of millions... Goku and Vegeta stopped to get better by Zenkai when they supassed 1 million... Super Saiyan is there because Zenkai can't cover the same range...
Freezer could never be beaten by a base form Saiyan that is not a fused character... Neither in Buu's saga...
I understood your point, but I think there's nothing to think that Movie 5 Goku is that much different from Android saga Goku... His look is that of an early SSJ... Cooler could never know the true max power of his bother... The Movie is not canon but it's like all that happened before is, so the battle on Namek with SSJ Goku vs Freezer took place... I may accept that it could be a Goku right before the RoSaT that never had the heart sickness, but his power is still in the ranges of early SSJs...
I don't remenber any dialogue of the Movie though... But I always try to argument keeping in mind the canon manga rules...

Yeah I think one of the guidebooks said something along the lines of Saiya-jins continuing to get Zenkais but they were just so tiny that they didn't matter, presumably because once you get in the millions they stop being useful. If you're at 5,000,000 or whatever and you gain 10,000 you probably won't even notice it. Gotenks-Boo remarked that Gohan didn't get any stronger after Dende healed him so that may just support the guidebooks and that statement may be there to remind us that Gohan literally can't get any stronger at that point.

Movie 5 is just suspicious. I mean the Coola that fights Base Goku is supposed to be as powerful as 50% or 100% Freeza IMO. Why would he transform against Goku if he can just power up to the full power of his fourth form and beat Goku's head with less hassle? I just find it really hard to buy that Freeza's full power in his true form is 120,000,000 and Coola's full power in his true form is like 3,000,000 to be honest. Coola fought Base Goku for a bit then remarked "Hmph, you do well as I expected. Enough to have defeated my brother." Then after a bit more talking he proceeds to go into his fifth form.

To each their own but to me that sounds like "wow, you definitely defeated my brother. But I'm even more powerful than he is when I go into my fifth form!" I'd assume Coola was talking about Freeza's suppressed forms but he had just taken out Piccolo minutes ago and despite him being over a million he didn't even suspect Piccolo might've had something to do with it. Considering Piccolo should be at least 3x the form Freeza is always in that makes it really unlikely that Coola thought Freeza was defeated in that form IMO.

Yes, but they makes sense... Movie 3 is like Nappa never killed anyone and they all remained on Earth to train and not gone to Namek... Those are the levels they probably would be able to reach, like in early Namek saga... But you'll never see Cell saga levels in a movie supposedly set after the Saiyan saga...

Well Toei didn't know what Toriyama was going to do next. They assumed he'd keep on handing out ridiculously huge Zenkais left and right so they seemed to give Goku a massive one in Movie 5 in the tradition of the Freeza Arc. In both Movie 3 and Movie 5 everybody is way, way higher than their canon counterparts at that time should be.

I don't say that SSJ1 Gotenks is stronger than SSJ3 Goku... But he is absolutely stronger than SSJ1 Goku... The same as both SSJ3...

Don't focus too much on Gotenks AND Gohan... It's just to say...

Remember that Goku suggested to bring them as a last resort, so if he was desperate because he lost SSJ3 energy, he should have trusted them a lot...

Vegeta on his own, didn't dismissed the idea of the *true* Buu's saga heroes ( ) because he didn't trust them... Vegeta wanted specifically to make the humans win that battle... If he would have wanted to call Gohan and Gotenks, then it would have been better to simply use the Fusion with Goku and pwn Kid Buu easily...
But Vegeta wanted simply a different solution unlike they are used to win the battles...

As the levels of strength are defines, Gotenks and Gohan would defeat with ease anyone that Goku barely could...

Vegeta refused to fuse with Goku again, as he himself said. Goku tried to beat Chibi Boo by himself but underestimated the strain of SSjin 3 and couldn't win. Then after Vegeta wished all the Earthlings back to life he suggests bringing Gohan, Gotenks, etc over to all fight Boo. If Goku and Chibi Boo are trash compared to them then that seems like serious overkill. Vegeta refused to ever fuse with Goku again and likely didn't think anyone but Goku could beat Boo (going by his "you're the only one capable of fighting Boo" statement earlier) so he decided to let the Earthlings win the battle with the Genki Dama because he liked the idea better than fusion IMO.

That's indeed true... Kid Buu could actually have absorbed Gohan or Gotenks if they would have badly cornered him...

But Vegeta's strategy in this specific case is not to choose the best way to win, but the most righteous...
The best would have been fusion... Even when Goku lost his SSJ power... Base form Gogeta would have been enough...
But Vegeta gave the chance to earthlings to fight for their own lives directly... It's just something different...

Vegeta didn't even know Metamorian fusion... he had seen it done but I doubt he actually could perform it yet. Not to mention the Potara were all crushed. It's possible that Gohan and Gotenks simply weren't enough to beat Boo or they weren't strong enough to dominate him and risked pissing him off and getting absorbed. He refused to do fusion no matter what so the only option left was letting the Earthlings get the job done (creating a Genki Dama.)

Pre RoSaT Gotenks was limited to SSJ1... That's why he might have been equal and not above SSJ2 Vegeta...
Retcon can't change things... We should find a compromise... Retcon may negate SSJ1 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku, but not Gotenks > Goku...

SSjin Gotenks was implied to be Fat Boo/SSjin 3 Goku tier though when he first appeared. The retcon changed that for sure.

And also "surpassed Vegeta and co. means Goku too...

But why would it only mention Vegeta by name? Vegeta is the second strongest, not THE strongest.

I actually think that Super Buu is Kid Buu + Fat Buu (they detached Fat Buu from Super Buu's body like they did with Gohan and the others)...
The true retcon it's, I think, more about Buu's forms than power levels... Kid Buu is invented right on the spot just to give SSJ3 Goku someone to fight... The fact is that I think Super Buu is Kid Buu + Fat Buu, not Mr. Bu... Remember Vegeta saying Fat Buu could again generate another Evil Buu... The retcon was that detaching Fat Buu would have had to bring Mr. Buu or Evil Buu, not Kid Buu...
Maybe the evil part of Buu taking the upper hand had awakened Kid Buu's power that was hidden, so instead of Super Buu having the same power as Fat Buu mut only more evil, he turns to be much stronger... That's because I think Kid Buu's power just added up itself to the equation...

Like...

Fat Buu: power 10 (6 points good, 4 points evil)

They divided...

It turned:

Evil Buu: power 6 (pure evil)
Mr. Buu: power 4 (pure good)

They recombined... But instead of turning 10 again (but 6 points evil and 4 points good), Kid Buu's power emerged while it was hidden, thanks to the influence of the evil part generated...
They recombined inside as Fat Buu with a power of 10, but all good, and the power of Kid Buu become the base, and with a power of, maybe 20...
That's this way the fusion of the base of Kid Buu, with 20 points of evil, and the absorbtion of Fat Buu, 10 points of good... The total is Super Buu with a power of 30, a powered up Kid Buu but less evil and more calm (he is 2/3 evil and 1/3 good), that's why detaching Fat Buu it turns to be Kid Buu and not Evil Buu...

Shin Boo couldn't use Chibi Boo's full power though, it was suppressed. Buff Boo was flat-out stated to be above Shin Boo and he's just Chibi Boo with South Kaioshin added, and going by the whole Z-Sword thing South Kaioshin is below SSjin 2 Gohan. And I wouldn't really put much faith into Vegeta's statement about Fat Boo unleashing another Evil Boo. Aku Boo was literally just all of the evil in Fat Boo in physical form. Mr. Boo was pure-hearted and had no more evil to unleash anymore.

It's only a general phrase, it's implied that if Goku asked to use the last wish to bring them to help, they would have won, because they were in a cornered situation... Anyway... The retcon could be actual, but not by those terms... It's like you are making Freezer stronger than Cell...
It might be that SSJ1 Gotenks is not anymore stronger than SSJ3 Goku... But absolutely not if they are compared with the same forms...

There's absolutely nothing anywhere suggesting that Freeza is above Cell, but there is stuff that suggests Chibi Boo > Shin Boo/Gohan. I just don't see Goku suggesting bringing Gohan, Gotenks, and everyone else in if Shin Boo suddenly showed up again. Gohan or Gotenks alone would be enough to put him down. Chibi Boo just seems to be made out to be a hell of a threat, even before the implications that he's a good deal above Goku appear IMO.

They would have...

But Goku and Vegeta wouldn't have lasted the necessary time to let this happen... Kid Buu would have destroyed the whole Otherworld before it could have been done... A faster solution would have been needed... Vegeta died against Fat Buu but he is sent by Shins only a lot of time after his death...

Chibi Boo was playing around with everybody and taking his time. And Gohan and Gotenks should've kept their bodies after their deaths so I don't see how it could've taken a long time for them to get sent back. With Vegeta it might've taken a bit because he needed a new body as he didn't get to keep his, but Gohan and co did.

I don't like the concept of retcon either way... To me things are simpler... Gotenks could match/defeat Super Buu... Goku said he would never be able to beat Super Buu... That happens when the supposed retcon was already active... But Goku said Gotenks is stronger than him anyway... So where's the problem?

Just interpret everything with what Goku said in the Fusion saga, with Gotenks stronger than him like it's obvious...

The worst that could happen is that Super Buu > Kid Buu, but it's what is likely to be... But if you want to think that Kid Buu fought at 10% of his power, you can even go that way...

Shin Boo mentioned Goku and co were smaller than fleas and then almost immediately after said they can't win the way they are now. There's numerous other logical explanations for why Goku was afraid of Shin Boo too besides him being weaker. Goku's said Gotenks WOULD be stronger than him. That was nothing more than a prediction... and he later admitted he was bullshitting that time about not being able to beat Boo, etc. And I don't think Chibi Boo held back even half of his power against Goku, I just don't think Goku is anywhere near as weak as most people think

[goldsaint13]

Yeah that's how I take that quote.

It can be hardly taken otherwise... SSJ1 Gotenks is supposed to defeat Fat Buu, unlike the best Vegeta ever...

Actually in the anime Goku directly compares Kid Buu to all the previous Buus.

They are definitely fool...

Did they ever realized how damnly strong Super Buuhan is?

And they still animated him...



Super Buuhan says to be the strongest... In the anime too, as far as I remember...

And how not believing him?

Goku and Vegeta seriously underestimated Chibi Boo. When he first appeared even Vegeta was laughing at him, which would mean they thought he was below Mr. Boo in terms of power. Not to mention even when they started realising his power they still went and crushed the last Potaras. If they hadn't gotten lucky with the Genki Dama actually succeeding the whole universe would've been destroyed by their sheer stupidity.

Fusion dance would have solved anything... I agree I underrated him... But not by that much... Goku was still convinced his SSJ3 max power would have defeated him... A power below SSJ3 Gotenks...
Unless, of course, Goku misjudged Kid Buu because the demon was holding back most of his power... That's a possibility, while remote... I don't know why I should see Kid Buu as stronger than he is shown...

With Shin Boo they were inside his body and had Gohan and co's lives to worry about. With Chibi Boo the situation was far more lax and they got way too carried away.

Goku wasn't talking about fighting him inside... He said "even going out, I'll have no chance against him"... So Vegeta planned to reduce his power even more detaching Fat Buu...

It didn't say anything about him being the strongest enemy in that instance, just the strongest. And it was talking about when Goku defeated him, so it's taking Gohan into account.

Maybe he was talking about the enemies they fought directly... Not even a fool could ever think to compare Kid Buu to Super Buuhan... Neither in the deepest dreams... I can understand the whole Super Buu - Kid Buu argument... But Super Buuhan is someone only Vegetto could ever defeat...

The Daizenshuu also says that if Goku and Vegeta were to lose the universe would have no future. That goes along well with Vegeta's manga statement that Goku is the only one capable of fighting Boo. If he were to die then nobody would be able to stop Chibi Boo.

That's of course refered to when Gohan and Gotenks were dead...

Yes, I'm not denying that Vegetto would beat anybody in the DBZverse without even trying. Vegetto >>> Gohan-Boo >>> Chibi Boo. But all of the Kaioshin's Potara had been destroyed by Goku and Vegeta because of their Saiya-jin pride crap.

Yes, the situation was not good because Gohan and Gotenks were dead... The last resort would have been Fusion dance...


I actually won't call it a resort but an easy last minute resolution...

Yeah I think one of the guidebooks said something along the lines of Saiya-jins continuing to get Zenkais but they were just so tiny that they didn't matter, presumably because once you get in the millions they stop being useful. If you're at 5,000,000 or whatever and you gain 10,000 you probably won't even notice it.

That's it... A good explanation...

Gotenks-Boo remarked that Gohan didn't get any stronger after Dende healed him so that may just support the guidebooks and that statement may be there to remind us that Gohan literally can't get any stronger at that point.

Of course!!! Gohan had been pulled out all his possible strength he would have as SSJ3 reaching his max possible limit... That's why he is not only way above SSJ3 Goku, but also SSJ3 Gotenks that is a Fusion...


He is not called "The Strongest Warrior" for nothing... It's not a statement, it's the name of his transformation...

Movie 5 is just suspicious. I mean the Coola that fights Base Goku is supposed to be as powerful as 50% or 100% Freeza IMO. Why would he transform against Goku if he can just power up to the full power of his fourth form and beat Goku's head with less hassle?

I think that was 100% Cooler but unlike Freezer, he doesn't get bulked up using 100%... That's a flaw for Freezer... He is not used to use his 100% and as Goku said he started to lose strength soon after he reached the 100%... Cooler is probably trained to use his 100% and he doesn't consume much energy like Freezer does... Becoming bulked up is the sign of a great tension and fatigue that shouldn't be needed to simply fight at 100%...
Added to a full control of his 100%, Cooler has another transformation, but it's THAT transformation that makes him stronger than Freezer...

I just find it really hard to buy that Freeza's full power in his true form is 120,000,000 and Coola's full power in his true form is like 3,000,000 to be honest. Coola fought Base Goku for a bit then remarked "Hmph, you do well as I expected. Enough to have defeated my brother." Then after a bit more talking he proceeds to go into his fifth form.

Just think that Goku might have been constantly using Kaiohken x20 (that is something he could have got better into) and Cooler never fought Freezer in his 100%, so that he believed his minor brother to have a power of less than 100.000.000...
With this I'm not saying that Cooler final form doesn't surpass even 100% Freezer anyway... Only that Cooler may not yet surpass him with the 4th form...

To each their own but to me that sounds like "wow, you definitely defeated my brother. But I'm even more powerful than he is when I go into my fifth form!" I'd assume Coola was talking about Freeza's suppressed forms but he had just taken out Piccolo minutes ago and despite him being over a million he didn't even suspect Piccolo might've had something to do with it. Considering Piccolo should be at least 3x the form Freeza is always in that makes it really unlikely that Coola thought Freeza was defeated in that form IMO.

Of course... Freezer never went beyond the second form, unless when he fough his father and, we can imagine, Cooler himself... Cooler was probably talking about Freezer final form, not above that 50-60% he always used (because he never used 100% before the fight with Goku)...

Well Toei didn't know what Toriyama was going to do next. They assumed he'd keep on handing out ridiculously huge Zenkais left and right so they seemed to give Goku a massive one in Movie 5 in the tradition of the Freeza Arc. In both Movie 3 and Movie 5 everybody is way, way higher than their canon counterparts at that time should be.

Well, not impossible, but if we plan to redirect the Movie common sense on the canon railroad, it's way more likely that Cooler simply never new what Freezer's true power really was because he never used it...

Vegeta refused to fuse with Goku again, as he himself said. Goku tried to beat Chibi Boo by himself but underestimated the strain of SSjin 3 and couldn't win. Then after Vegeta wished all the Earthlings back to life he suggests bringing Gohan, Gotenks, etc over to all fight Boo. If Goku and Chibi Boo are trash compared to them then that seems like serious overkill. Vegeta refused to ever fuse with Goku again and likely didn't think anyone but Goku could beat Boo (going by his "you're the only one capable of fighting Boo" statement earlier) so he decided to let the Earthlings win the battle with the Genki Dama because he liked the idea better than fusion IMO.

The thing is simplier than it seems... They played cocky in the beginning thinking their opponent was the weakest Buu... Then they realized that even Goku's power was not enough and they would have needed the new generation or the fusion to win... Then Vegeta, knowing that they had a couple of trump cards, tried the most risky way, to involve the humanity... As long has they had the shoulders covered by the kids, they could risk and gain a truly meaningful victory (the best of Gohan's pwning performances would never have matched Mr. Satan and the humans that actually save the Earth for real... )

Vegeta didn't even know Metamorian fusion... he had seen it done but I doubt he actually could perform it yet.

As they seem to hint, Vegeta could actually have used it if strictly needed, but he absolutely didn't want to )...

Not to mention the Potara were all crushed. It's possible that Gohan and Gotenks simply weren't enough to beat Boo or they weren't strong enough to dominate him and risked pissing him off and getting absorbed. He refused to do fusion no matter what so the only option left was letting the Earthlings get the job done (creating a Genki Dama.)

This scenario is actually to be considered... I would add that Gotenks and Gohan were well known for their overmatching power compared to Goku and Vegeta... But strenght is not all.
We just know how naive are Gohan and Gotenks and Goku knows it either... Expecially Gotenks... He would have likely ended up wasting his 5 minutes playing around with the already overplayful Kid Buu... A too big temptation for Gotenks... It could have created some problems...

SSjin Gotenks was implied to be Fat Boo/SSjin 3 Goku tier though when he first appeared. The retcon changed that for sure.

It changed that, but Gotenks remained above the common power levels even as SSJ1, while not anymore in the SSJ3 tier maybe...

But why would it only mention Vegeta by name? Vegeta is the second strongest, not THE strongest.

Maybe they didn't imagined we would have argumented the thing this much... Saying Vegeta and the others and not Goku and the others is curious, although the meaning is the same...

Shin Boo couldn't use Chibi Boo's full power though, it was suppressed. Buff Boo was flat-out stated to be above Shin Boo and he's just Chibi Boo with South Kaioshin added, and going by the whole Z-Sword thing South Kaioshin is below SSjin 2 Gohan. And I wouldn't really put much faith into Vegeta's statement about Fat Boo unleashing another Evil Boo. Aku Boo was literally just all of the evil in Fat Boo in physical form. Mr. Boo was pure-hearted and had no more evil to unleash anymore.

Well, Super Buu may only have reatained a small percentage of his full possible power because of some good influence, while with Buff Buu uses it fully...

In my example, if Super Buu is Fat Buu (10) + Kid Buu (20), he may be 29 instead of 30 due to the small good influence...
Buff Buu would be Super Buu's true power...

And also... South Kaiohshin was the strongest among Kaiohshins... But what about Dai Kaiohshin, the fat one?

We was calm and gentle, at the point of weakening Majin Buu, but what about his power? He was not a Kaiohahin, but the ruoler of the Otherworld... How do you know he tried to pull the sword and failed?


The Majin Buu system is that much confused that it's impossible to say anything trying to calculate assorbtions, if not using the characters' statements...

There's absolutely nothing anywhere suggesting that Freeza is above Cell, but there is stuff that suggests Chibi Boo > Shin Boo/Gohan. I just don't see Goku suggesting bringing Gohan, Gotenks, and everyone else in if Shin Boo suddenly showed up again. Gohan or Gotenks alone would be enough to put him down. Chibi Boo just seems to be made out to be a hell of a threat, even before the implications that he's a good deal above Goku appear IMO.

He may be a serious threat for side reasons... Maybe not the power, but the wilderness, or even the possibly best regenerative capacity (he is the less human but also the harder to hurt... Super Buuhan is made bleeding, a thing that would sound impossible with Kid Buu, despite he is a real kid compared to him)...

Anyway, my point was that it would be impossible to retcon Freezer above Cell... The same here... If Gotenks is made a lot stronger than Goku, then it may be possible to rearrange a bit, but not to revert things up...

Chibi Boo was playing around with everybody and taking his time. And Gohan and Gotenks should've kept their bodies after their deaths so I don't see how it could've taken a long time for them to get sent back. With Vegeta it might've taken a bit because he needed a new body as he didn't get to keep his, but Gohan and co did.

We don't know how much the emergency situation could have made the gods bent the rules... Maybe there's a burocracy... Old Kaiohshin actually gives his life to Goku, a thing against the rules I assume... Then everything could have heppened... But I think only Kaiohshin has the authority to bring someone to the sacred planet of Kaiohshins... It couldn't have been Enma's or lower Kaioh's decision...

Shin Boo mentioned Goku and co were smaller than fleas and then almost immediately after said they can't win the way they are now. There's numerous other logical explanations for why Goku was afraid of Shin Boo too besides him being weaker.

Goku said that he would have been killed while returned outside... Nothing specifically about being small at the moment...

Anyway, Goku could never be equal to Super Buu because Gotenks is... And Gotenks is surely stronger than him... The thing can be proven either way...

Goku's said Gotenks WOULD be stronger than him. That was nothing more than a prediction...

He was talking about SSJ1 Gotenks... And if he could predict that SSJ1 Gotenks could be at least stronger than his SSJ2, it could be never ever be even on par with him as SSJ1...

and he later admitted he was bullshitting that time about not being able to beat Boo, etc.

On Earth he couldn't... He would have wasted all his time left before having done it... But he theorically had the hidden power to win... He didn't try it out because he wanted to use his time left to teach the Fusion...

And I don't think Chibi Boo held back even half of his power against Goku, I just don't think Goku is anywhere near as weak as most people think

Goku is not weak... He is simply weaker than Gotenks AT LEAST comparing with him in the same SSJ form...

And this is aside from how much power Kid Buu could actually have...


Going by absurd, Kid Buu could even be equal to Vegetto and using only his 1% to match SSJ3 Goku... This doesn't change anything, he would have to use 2% to match SSJ3 Gotenks and 3% to match Gohan, so to say...


As I said before, Kid Buu's power could be how you like it to be... As long as Gohan > Gotenks > Goku, there's nothing disproven by the manga, small retcon or not...

[Fox666]

Phew, again the Evil vs Pure Majin Boo discussion?

I don't think there really is much mistery behind it. It's just that the history developed in a strange way, this is, the final villain wasn't the strongest, neither who defeated him was the strongest hero.

When it comes to power, I don't think that Toriyama ever "forget" that Evil Buu, Gotenks or Gohan were far superior to Pure Buu or Goku.

[Nazi Cola]

Once SSj3 Goku and Kid Boo were mentioned in the same thread, I kind of figured this would turn into "that" debate.

[jackjack]

Defeat Buu!
Goku fought with the revived Buu. Goku tried to have the next generation resolve this problem, but in the end he was the one who defeated Buu, the strongest in the universe, after being resurrected by receiving the life of the Dai-Kaioshin.

The entry seems to be talking about Boo in general, not necessarily any specific form. Goku fought with the revived Buu (fat form). Goku tried to have the next generation resolve this problem (merged form), but in the end he was the one who defeated Buu (pure form); it's treating them all as one character, Majin Boo, who can be considered the strongest at several points in the storyline.

[Kaboom]

Yeah, Majin Boo doesn't even have separate character bios for his various forms. The books tend to treat them as all the same general character.

[rereboy]

For example, its unknown if SSJ Gotenks > SSJ2 Vegeta. Looking at the manga, it could go either way.

I completely disagree.
From all the statements and the way things transpired, I think it's pretty clear that Super Saiyan Gotenks is far beyond SSJ 2 Goku/SSJ 2 Vegeta, enough to be able to defeat Fat Buu.
I don't know why Daizenshuu 7 said what they did, but from the looks of Super Saiyan Gotenks being weaker than the SSJ 2s is not what the story was trying to tell us, if you ask me.
Blah.

Well, when the two kids fused as SSJ and became SSJ Gotenks, Piccolo merely stated that their power was impressive but he didn't seemed really convinced they could beat Buu just yet and he tried to stop them from going to Earth.

However, Piccolo had, not too long ago, asked Goku why he hadn't really tried killing Fat Buu with his SSJ3. He clearly felt that Goku could do it, which is confirmed later by Goku himself when Goku is fighting Kid Buu, despite not having given Piccolo such a definite answer when Piccolo asked him about it.

So, this basically implies that SSJ Gotenks pre-Rosat is weaker than SSJ3 Goku.

So, how much weaker than SSJ3 Goku is he? Well, I think he is very significantly weaker than SSJ3 Goku, but still very powerful and with the potential of beating Buu if he betters himself.

So, basically, I would place him around SSJ2 Goku and SSJ2 Vegeta power. It seems right. Maybe a little more, maybe a little less, it doesn't matter. With that kind of power it would still be very impressive and if Gotenks improved enough to achieve SSJ2, he would be powerful enough to really have a chance of beating Fat Buu.

It fits well in every reaction of the manga in my opinion.

But, of course, you might think that he surpasses SSJ2 Vegeta by far. And you wouldn't be wrong. Its just another interpretation/opinion.

So, as you can see, its not that clear in the manga, since I think you will agree with me when I say that are enough arguments in the manga to also support my opinion.

[jackjack]

Well, when the two kids fused as SSJ and became SSJ Gotenks, Piccolo merely stated that their power was impressive but he didn't seemed really convinced they could beat Buu just yet

When a stronger version of Boo (whom they can't defeat) appears, he asks them boys to train some more and get stronger.

What does that tell us about the fat one?

and he tried to stop them from going to Earth.

No, he didn't. Stick to facts, please.

So, this basically implies that SSJ Gotenks pre-Rosat is weaker than SSJ3 Goku.

Ok, how does being weaker than Goku translate to way below fat Boo again?

It seems right.

This pretty much sums up your entire argument. I'm sensing that you think "he is very significantly weaker than SSJ3 Goku" for no apparent reason, other than your own personal feelings.

So, as you can see, its not that clear in the manga

It's that clear if you ask me. It's stated by the leading character. How much more clear does it have to get, really? If you can't trust Goku, you can't trust anyone.

since I think you will agree with me when I say that are enough arguments in the manga to also support my opinion.

The manga disagrees with you, though. If you're placing them around SSJ2 level, I can safely say that you're false with this one.

[Fox666]

No, he didn't. Stick to facts, please.
(...)
It's that clear if you ask me. It's stated by the leading character.
(...)
The manga disagrees with you, though.

Sorry, but aren't you being too arrogant, considering the subject? Whatever Goku said, he said before Gotenks even existed. I think that calling that a "fact" is unreal.

The truth is that the manga isn't that clear about how exactly Gotenks compares to the other saiyans or even the fat Majin Boo. Despite what the so called manga facts imply, the Daizenshuu on the other hand mentions in Gotenks profile that he didn't surpassed Vegeta & co. until he trained in the Room of Time.

There were tons of mistakes in Goku's predictions, as he claimed Gotenks would surely defeat Majin Boo, and a lot of things happened, being the transformations Majin Boo suffered and how Gotenks personality turned out. But of course since Goku was making a prediction, if you take the Daizenshuu premise that Gotenks wasn't superior to Vegeta, you could also say his predictions about Gotenks strength actually materialized when he achieved the Super Saiyan 3.

If you are gonna ignore what the Daizenshuu says, I guess there really isn't nothing stopping you to also take the Potara A x B equation as a possibility for the Metamorian fusion, this is, Gotenks having a battle power of one hundred quadrillions. It's possible after all, since Gotenks never fought anyone besides Evil Boo who you could say is also the result of a fusion.

[jackjack]

Sorry, but aren't you being too arrogant, considering the subject?

I don't think so.

Whatever Goku said, he said before Gotenks even existed

It only goes to show he knew what he was talking about.

Goku: “…But there is one way we can win!”
Vegeta: “You want to say Fusion, right? Well who cares about that?!”
Goku: “Huh? You know about it?”
Vegeta: “I saw it from the afterlife…You’ve got to be joking! You think I’d perform those ugly poses…?!”

There is no reason to believe a hypothetical Gogeta would lose here.

I think that calling that a "fact" is unreal.

What I find unreal is placing them below fat Boo.

A statement from the most reliable character that not only goes uncontradicted, but is also backed up by the second or third most reliable character. If you don't call that a fact, I don't know what is.

There were tons of mistakes in Goku's predictions

I'm interested in knowing them.

and a lot of things happened, being the transformations Majin Boo suffered and how Gotenks personality turned out.

Which had nothing to do with their strength.

If you are gonna ignore what the Daizenshuu says

Nothing that I can see flat-out contradicts the manga.

[lash]

Defeat Buu!
Goku fought with the revived Buu. Goku tried to have the next generation resolve this problem, but in the end he was the one who defeated Buu, the strongest in the universe, after being resurrected by receiving the life of the Dai-Kaioshin.

The entry seems to be talking about Boo in general, not necessarily any specific form. Goku fought with the revived Buu (fat form). Goku tried to have the next generation resolve this problem (merged form), but in the end he was the one who defeated Buu (pure form); it's treating them all as one character, Majin Boo, who can be considered the strongest at several points in the storyline.

Whoa, so strange. You sound almost exactly like I did when I responded to that line before. Great minds think alike.

http://daizex.fanboyreview.net/viewtopi ... 62#p437262

It's speaking about Majin Boo in general...who had been "the strongest in the universe" many instances at varies times.
The "revived Boo" Goku fought(Fatso) is different then the problem the next generation(Goten/Trunks) had to solve(Fatso & Super Boo). Both are of course different then the one Goku defeated(Pure Boo). Yet this quote treats them all as the exact same problem/person. Therefore it seems to be Boo in general, and not necessarily any specific boo.

[jackjack]

I knew I had read that somewhere before. Credit goes to you, actually.

[Fox666]

There is no reason to believe a hypothetical Gogeta would lose here.

...
I don't even know how to answer you. The character don't even exist, I won't argue about that.

A statement from the most reliable character that not only goes uncontradicted, but is also backed up by the second or third most reliable character. If you don't call that a fact, I don't know what is.

Again, you can't consider it a "statement", since Gotenks didn't existed since them.

Besides there were plenty of occasions which characters didn't predicted a fusion outcome accurately. In Vegetto case everybody was surprised how much better he actually turned to be. Of ourse I wouldn't call Goku's case a inaccurate prediction, since Gotenks turned out great as he mastered Super Saiyan 3 in no time.

Which had nothing to do with their strength.

It makes no difference, since these are also "statements" of Goku.

Nothing that I can see flat-out contradicts the manga.

Contradicts the manga? Not. Contradicts what you are saying? Seems to be the case.