How strong do you think base GT Kid Goku is?

[Zephyr]

Where would you guys peg GT base Kid Goku in terms of power and ability? I'm in the middle of watching GT and its difficult to take it seriously with him, in that state, getting more combat time than any of his other forms/other characters, and yet not doing so bad against opponents that you would by this point, expect to be stronger than many of the powerful characters from the Buu arc.

I know this would take into account each person's stance on where the base Saiyans would be by this point, so it'd help to explain your reasoning for that as well.

Personally, I don't view the base Saiyans as being much stronger than they were prior to when they respectively first reached SSj1. The only reason we see these characters got stronger was due to power ups, and more and more powered up versions of these power ups as the series progressed, with little to no reliable showcases of their base power afterward (if I remember correctly).

Speaking of their natural base battle power progression, I'm also just now realizing in the middle of this post that to make a judgment for yourself based on how a character's power level would increase from training, you would have to choose for yourself: would it increase by way of addition, or multiplication? I'm not sure if any kind of pattern could be attributed to the official levels based on the known ways each character's power grew at various points in the series to put together a well thought out theory on the matter...

Now, I'm not especially keen on being able to measure character strengths based on their feats in comparison to one another, and with that in mind I would have to place the base Saiyans no stronger than anyone who at the time only could be matched by a SSj. And I'm not even sure where Goku turning into a kid would place him.

So I'm curious to see where some of the members more inclined and well versed in the task would put him (and I'm not strictly talking about powerlevels per-se), so that I may get a more accurate grasp on just how much of GT actually makes sense.

[CatouttaHell]

I have Base Goku at 72 million in the Baby Arc and 75 million in the Super #17/Evil Dragons Arcs. I assume General Rild only rivals 50% Freeza and Goku's statement about him being above Mr. Boo was actually about Metal Rild (wrote a rant about it here if you're interested.)

I used to have GT Base Goku 4x Super Vegetto because of the Anime Chibi Boo hax but I don't follow any of the Anime Toei Haxes for GT anymore. Most people have him REALLY high because of the popular interpretation of the General Rild quote but the problem is nothing but a few, quick, irrelevant Toei Hax scenes everything goes against that. There's several scenes that imply Trunks and Goten barely trained and yet they're not implied to be horribly behind Goku. Trunks killed Mutchi-Mutchi, who gave Goku trouble and the combined powers of Gohan, Goten, and Trunks made a huge difference when added to Goku's power on at least two separate occasions. Thus Base Goku being Chibi Boo tier is absolutely impossible.

Not to mention how much trouble those SPACE WORMS gave Goku and co. Can you imagine Freeza, Cell, Bojack, or Chibi Boo defeating the Z-Senshi and then having their universal conquest/destruction ended when a random space worm one-shots them?

[Rostir]

How strong is GT Goku when he is in his normal body?

[Cipher]

Goku isn't appreciably stronger in base form than he is at the end of the Buu arc.

Ignore (or come up with another explanation for) the line about Rilldo. Do not assume that pre-fusion Oob has to be as strong as pure Boo was. Congratulations; everything is now 90 percent more consistent with what you see on the screen.

Don't let one iffy line prevent the series from making sense.

and yet not doing so bad against opponents that you would by this point, expect to be stronger than many of the powerful characters from the Buu arc.

Like who? The only one who's remotely implied to be comparable to Boo arc characters before Baby shows up is Rilldo. And screw that line about Rilldo (or just have it refer to Mr. Boo, and the day is saved).

Other than that, there's no reason to think Ledgic, Mutchi-Mutchi or Luud are anywhere near Boo-level characters.

[goldsaint13]

Goku could never improve by much since Cell saga... His improvement have been the SSJ2 and SSJ3, but as base and SSJ1 he was stronger than he was in Cell saga by a bit, already during Buu's arc...

That's not possible for him to get much stronger than that...

So there's two options...


1. GT Goku is more or less the same as Buu's arc.

2. GT itself is just a messed up filler without even the guise of being barely close to canon.



I fear the second is true...

[dbgtFO]

@goldsaint13
GT isn't filler.

[goldsaint13]

No?

And what's the difference between GT and the Garlic Jr. saga or the Otherworld tournament saga?

I don't think that GT is safe from the filler definition just because it happens after the manga story and not in-between...

[Leviathus]

@goldsaint13

Well, filler is actually a.. let's say... a placeholder episode/saga. When they have to wait for the next chapters of the manga to be published. Or in some cases, just something to fill an episode.

GT on the other hand, is a new series or rather a continuation of the anime series. It doesn't have to fill anything. The manga is done and Toei wanted to continue the series.

[goldsaint13]

Of course it hasn't the role to fill something... But I can't see why the level of canon should be higher in GT than in a filler...

GT and fillers have many things in common... For example a base Goku defeating Super Perfect Cell while he would have been killed as SSJ1 by the basic Perfect Cell... The same it happens in GT...

Or also the villains that keeps their bodies in the Otherworld while they should be purify and reincarnated as the canon tells...

[CatouttaHell]

Okay what? GT is not filler, it doesn't FILL anything. Just because it has some concepts that filler does doesn't mean it's filler. If Toriyama borrowed the concept of villains keeping their bodies and put it into the manga would that make the manga filler?

How strong is GT Goku when he is in his normal body?

The GT Perfect Files stated that Chibi Goku is no weaker than Adult Goku.

[goldsaint13]

Okay what? GT is not filler, it doesn't FILL anything. Just because it has some concepts that filler does doesn't mean it's filler. If Toriyama borrowed the concept of villains keeping their bodies and put it into the manga would that make the manga filler?

Tory could have done it only BEFORE saying that the villains are reincarneted instead... After that, even him was bounded to what he already stated...

Beside it... Of course it's not filler, but it's as much mistaking and as much un-canon as fillers are...

[Leviathus]

Of course it hasn't the role to fill something... But I can't see why the level of canon should be higher in GT than in a filler...

GT and fillers have many things in common... For example a base Goku defeating Super Perfect Cell while he would have been killed as SSJ1 by the basic Perfect Cell... The same it happens in GT...

Or also the villains that keeps their bodies in the Otherworld while they should be purify and reincarnated as the canon tells...

Technically GT is not a filler. But I see were you are coming from. It feels like a filler and Toei... well, I think they didn't care much about the plotholes they created and what not.

[Zephyr]

The only one who's remotely implied to be comparable to Boo arc characters before Baby shows up is Rilldo. And screw that line about Rilldo (or just have it refer to Mr. Boo, and the day is saved).

Other than that, there's no reason to think Ledgic, Mutchi-Mutchi or Luud are anywhere near Boo-level characters.

Rest assured, the line about Rilldo isn't remotely the cause of the confusion. I'm also bringing into question characters that appeared after Baby, namely the Evil Dragons (not taking the Super 17 arc into consideration for obvious reasons). Now he did transform to SSj4 eventually against most of them, but I guess the reason I'm confused is that he doesn't immediately transform against some of the dragons who were shown to certainly warrant it.

[Cipher]

Rest assured, the line about Rilldo isn't remotely the cause of the confusion. I'm also bringing into question characters that appeared after Baby, namely the Evil Dragons (not taking the Super 17 arc into consideration for obvious reasons). Now he did transform to SSj4 eventually against most of them, but I guess the reason I'm confused is that he doesn't immediately transform against some of the dragons who were shown to certainly warrant it.

The only dragons that were certainly Super Saiyan 4 level were Si Xing Long, San Xing Long and Yi Xing Long. Maybe Qi Xing Long after absorbing Pan. The only one he spends any significant amount of time in base against is Si Xing Long, and he spends most of that "fight" running away and hiding. Then they have their typical "You're not using your true power and neither am I" talk.

[Nazi Cola]

Stronger than Gotenks from Z.

[Rocketman]

He doesn't have strength. It's like asking what the ATK of the assembled Exodia is - it's a null question, because you instantly win.

[InfernalVegito]

I always thought the wish to make him a child again reduced his power significantly. I'd say he is weaker than his GT adult version before the wish was granted. I mean he is a kid again and his body could not even hold SSJ3 against Baby as long as when he fought against Kid Boo.

[Nazi Cola]

I always thought the wish to make him a child again reduced his power significantly. I'd say he is weaker than his GT adult version before the wish was granted. I mean he is a kid again and his body could not even hold SSJ3 against Baby as long as when he fought against Kid Boo.

That has to do with his stamina, not his strength. He was no weaker as a child than he was an adult. His child body just couldn't handle the immense strain of Super Saiyan 3, which involves stamina and not strength.

[InfernalVegito]

Hmm might as well be how you present it but I still find it kind of paradoxical that GT Kid Goku is as strong as his GT adult version. Kind of hard to believe.

[lash]

Base Goku is stated/shown to be stronger then Majin Boo( who I attribute as Mr Boo/ or even Fat Boo. Doesn't really matter), KibitoShin, SSJ Baby Goten and Gohan, and a powered up Cell and Freeza. I don't exactly like it. But it is what it is. With all that in consideration...In terms of Z, I'd still him a decent amount weaker than Post RoSaT SSJ Gotenks. That's extremely unnaturally powerful if you ask me.

Speaking of their natural base battle power progression, I'm also just now realizing in the middle of this post that to make a judgment for yourself based on how a character's power level would increase from training, you would have to choose for yourself: would it increase by way of addition, or multiplication? I'm not sure if any kind of pattern could be attributed to the official levels based on the known ways each character's power grew at various points in the series to put together a well thought out theory on the matter...

For me...
Battle progression increase: Not mere multiplication or addition, but instead...plot.

We saw this in Dragonball all the time. So I can't say GT power levels are completely in the impossible. Though I still consider the implied power increase GT made highly unlikely comparing it to Toriyama's manga-type style(if he was to write GT for instance). Don't think Toriyama would write Goku stronger than the previous main villain in the series in a much weaker state he fought him in. Even in the cyborg arc, you don't exactly see Goku boasting he could halt a villain stronger then Freeza in his normal state. Or Buu arc Base/ SSJs being implied to surpass Perfect Cell.

I have Base Goku at 72 million in the Baby Arc and 75 million in the Super #17/Evil Dragons Arcs. I assume General Rild only rivals 50% Freeza and Goku's statement about him being above Mr. Boo was actually about Metal Rild (wrote a rant about it here if you're interested.)

That doesn't work. Goku actually remarks and is surprised Sigma fused Rildo got as strong as he did. In other words... he wasn't expecting it. Lets not forget that Rildo actually "merged" with the Sigma force. How is Goku going to sense through a fusion, before the fusion has even happened? Can't recall anyone ever doing that.

Either way you want to think it:
SSJ Goku > Sigma Fused Rildo > What Goku thought of General Rildo > Majin Boo(unspecified version) >?< Goku > General Rildo

...Rildo still has to be greater than Boo in his first state, even if you think Rildo was holding back in his fight. Let's not forget the fact that Base Goku was also stated to be holding back in that fight...unless Rildo can pull a Kuririn and sense through to transformations.

Even without that quote, not sure how Base GT Goku can be 72-75 million anyway. We see him effortlessly defeat Cell and Freeza, and even SSJ Goten-Baby and SSJ Gohan-Baby (baby virus actually makes them stronger). He's also stated to be stronger than KibitoShin.

Trunks killed Mutchi-Mutchi, who gave Goku trouble and the combined powers of Gohan, Goten, and Trunks made a huge difference when added to Goku's power on at least two separate occasions. Thus Base Goku being Chibi Boo tier is absolutely impossible.

Being off screen, Trunks could have been a SSJ when he killed Mutchi-Mutchi. It was also a surprise attack. Mutchi gave Goku trouble due to his object manipulation, and Ki absorption.
Adding powers to a vessel is apparently much more than just the sum of their powers. This seems to be the lazy way Toei tries and boosts Goku's power(ex: Half beaten Piccolo + battered Goku > Super Namekian Slug, half dead base saiyans + Piccolo + battered SSJ Goku > Broly, etc.)

Not to mention how much trouble those SPACE WORMS gave Goku and co. Can you imagine Freeza, Cell, Bojack, or Chibi Boo defeating the Z-Senshi and then having their universal conquest/destruction ended when a random space worm one-shots them?

Well, at least the worms can't one shot them because they don't use Ki. lol

And screw that line about Rilldo (or just have it refer to Mr. Boo, and the day is saved).

Even Base Goku being stronger than Mr Boo is still pretty day-destroying-insane if you ask me.

I always thought the wish to make him a child again reduced his power significantly. I'd say he is weaker than his GT adult version before the wish was granted. I mean he is a kid again and his body could not even hold SSJ3 against Baby as long as when he fought against Kid Boo.

As a child, he's stated (Perfect files) not to be any weaker then his adult self. Stamina is the only thing said to decrease; which you can see via his initial usage of SSJ3.

Although a Q&A round in the same GT Perfect Files does imply that turning into a child stunned Goku's growth. In other words, during the course of GT & how Kid Goku got stronger...if he was in his adult state, his growth rate would have escalated. It makes sense though. It would prove more difficult to get stronger using an unsuited body.

Q: Why did Gokuu become a child!?

You know that the anime "Dragon Ball" series had the concept of "We'll depict the process and growth of Gokuu getting stronger," right? However, the Gokuu who had defeated the ultimately strong Majin Boo in "Z" was, to speak conversely, "Getting too strong." For that reason, it was very difficult to depict growth as an adult. Therefore, he was reverted to a child, and made to bear a handicap of being unable to use Shunkan Idou. However, even if he's smaller, Gokuu is Gokuu. Since he defeated the ultimately strong Baby, he was strong after all!!