Episode #0265 (17 July 2011)

Post by **VegettoEX** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:06 pm

Episode #0265 (download MP3) (rss feed) (subscribe in iTunes)
79:23; 96 kbps, mono; 54.8 MB

Episode #0265! VegettoEX and Herms break down mistakes that appear in the most well-known guide books for the franchise (and our namesake!), the daizenshuu. Are they truly mistakes, though? What is actually wrong contradictory in the text, what is new information, and what have fans made up as false mistakes over time? Meri joins to banter about with what non-news there is, along with the rest of July's releases! Referenced sites:

Mike and Jake. Talking about guide book stuff. For a while. That's cool stuff. If you like it. If not, well, you're wrong. Enjoy

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:39 pm

Interesting, Jake mentioned that Caramel Mama was involved in writing Dragon Ball Kai. The Episode #1 credits list them under 'Series Organization'. Under 'Scenario' we have Koyama Takao and Sumisawa Katsuyuki, who wrote the first two Dragon Ball Z episodes that Dragon Ball Kai #1 is made up of. I guess we should assume 'Scenario' is just an honorary credit?

Akumaito Beam · Post by **Akumaito Beam** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:50 am

Fantastic podcast as usual. So are you guys cool with the pronunciation "Kamayamaya" now? What changed your minds?

Post by **Herms** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:36 am

Akumaito Beam wrote:Fantastic podcast as usual. So are you guys cool with the pronunciation "Kamayamaya" now? What changed your minds?

My crappy tongue

Akumaito Beam · Post by **Akumaito Beam** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:38 am

Herms wrote: My crappy tongue

Ah! That's perfectly understandable.

kenisu3000 · Post by **kenisu3000** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:05 am

It's funny you guys chose now to bring up this topic. This is actually something I've been thinking about a lot lately.
I've got a couple to add from Daizenshuu 7:

1. The timeline states that Pilaf summoned Shen Long (and Oolong had his panty wish granted) on September 9, 749. Then Silver from the Red Ribbon Army starts having his team look for a DragonBall on April 18, 750. The DragonBalls take a full year to revive from being stones after a wish is granted, and until then, they cannot be detected on radar. Even if you count the insane possibility that Silver was ordered by Commander Red to simply to comb the entire world for the Balls without help from a radar, the entire Red Ribbon arc begins and ends months before September 9, according to this wonky timeline.

2. In the Human Racial Dictionary, there's no entry for Mint, the girl whom Kuririn crushes on in the two-part filler just before the 23rd Budokai. Being a filler character makes no difference - in fact, Princess Misa, who shows up in only one episode (and who, in black-and-white, looks a heck of a lot like Mint) has an entry. If Mint were in the book, she'd be on page 113, between the entries for Minoshia and the Mousse household.
There are probably other characters missing from the Human Racial Dictionary, but Mint's absence is one I particularly noticed.

Anyway, to add to the actual discussion, this is going to sound really negative, but I hope nobody takes it the wrong way and thinks I'm outright slamming the Daizenshuu. I'm not. I love these books and always find myself wasting hours upon days of my life just flipping through them when I'm just lazing about on my bed. This first gripe is really my own problem:

I always felt it was kind of a shame I didn't look into buying the Daizenshuu before buying all of the manga and watching all of the anime on FUNi's DVDs. It underplayed the awesomeness of being able to gawk at all the screenshots and isolated manga panels, and dreaming of one day watching the episodes/reading the manga chapters detailed in the Daizenshuu. Oh well, at least volumes 3, 5 and 6 contain gorgeous original art alongside the screenshots.

But then there's my second gripe, which is genuinely directed toward the folks who compiled these books:

My word, the padding. It makes sense to me that Daizenshuu 2 contains the entirety of the first and last manga chapters (as bookends and a way to showcase how the series had changed over the years), but why throw in the first Dr. Slump crossover chapter in the middle of vol. 4? Because the book would be painfully skinny otherwise. Then you have TV Animation Part 3, which is padded out with movie poster art and a list of anime-exclusive battles.

This wouldn't bother me in the least if only they had devoted just one volume to the music of Shunsuke Kikuchi. It could have been grand. Check out pages 70 and 71 in TV Animation Part 3 (the third supplemental volume). It covers the audio aspects of the anime, but if I skimmed it right, not one mention is given of the BGM. They talk about the voice actors and even put some emphasis on sound effects, for crying out loud. It's like they go out of their way to ignore that the music even exists. Sure, music is a thing of audio, and that doesn't exactly translate to the page well, but there is the practice of including CDs with music-oriented books. I don't mean they would have needed to provide episode-by-episode charts (like I did), but they could have included original sheet music and a definitive list of M-numbers and made-up-on-the-spot BGM titles, along with the actual length of each piece, and throw in a few "Variety of DB" pages that focus on pieces that were composed for the series, but never used. That way, we would know right from the source exactly how many compositions were made for DragonBall, exactly how much is missing from the CDs, etc. etc. It would have been an immense help to me to know exactly which pieces had alternate takes and which didn't, and it's also sometimes impossible for me to tell if what I'm hearing is part of the sound effects track, or music track.
What could have been..... But then, if an entire Daizenshuu volume were devoted to BGM, we'd be living in a world where there'd be no such thing as "never released on CD". In the meantime, I realize this is all crap that a very, very miniscule amount of the DragonBall fanbase even cares about. A BGM Daizenshuu wouldn't sell very well at all, except when you consider collectors who have to have all pieces to a set.

I know Kikuchi joins a group interview for the Shen Long Times issue 6 (which I don't own), and in Daizenshuu 3's Toriyama Super Interview, they ask Toriyama if he had had any ideas for what kind of BGM should be playing in which scene as he was drawing the manga (he didn't at first, but as he was watching the broadcast, he'd notice how the BGM would enliven certain scenes, and thought, "this is good stuff"), but that's about it.

This is Angry Fanboy Rant, over and out.

DragonBoxZTheMovies · Post by **DragonBoxZTheMovies** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:42 am

Listening right now guys! Great podcast so far. Oh, and the idea of Tenshinhan being able to use the Kaioken is from his filler battle with the Ginyu Force where he kinda powers up and he gains a red aura.

worldmonsters · Post by **worldmonsters** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:25 am

Loving the podcast so far :p do have to mention, before I forget, that Herms made another mistake :p When talking about the mistake of how long Goku has been dead before fighting Vegeta, Herms mentions the 24th of December as being the date Frieza's en Goku's epic fight. When he does he calls it "New Year's Eve" when it's of course "Christmas Eve"

And now to continue listening :p

dbgtFO · Post by **dbgtFO** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:23 am

Interesting topic, didn't think you could discuss this for more than an hour, but what do you know! On Kanzentai it's noted that Daizenshuu 2 was revised a couple of months after it was released. Do you know, if the mistakes concerning, when certain characters or forms of characters appear were corrected?

Post by **VegettoEX** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:49 am

DragonBoxZTheMovies wrote:Oh, and the idea of Tenshinhan being able to use the Kaioken is from his filler battle with the Ginyu Force where he kinda powers up and he gains a red aura.

Yeah, I can totally see that. The thing is, I'm not sure what relevance that has to a persistent rumor that the daizenshuu specifically states that Tenshinhan has/uses the Kaio-Ken. I mean, they're definitely related, but I'm not just sure HOW MUCH they're related. Good point to note, regardless!

dbgtFO · Post by **dbgtFO** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:05 pm

kenisu3000 wrote: 1. The timeline states that Pilaf summoned Shen Long (and Oolong had his panty wish granted) on September 9, 749. Then Silver from the Red Ribbon Army starts having his team look for a DragonBall on April 18, 750. The DragonBalls take a full year to revive from being stones after a wish is granted, and until then, they cannot be detected on radar. Even if you count the insane possibility that Silver was ordered by Commander Red to simply to comb the entire world for the Balls without help from a radar, the entire Red Ribbon arc begins and ends months before September 9, according to this wonky timeline.

That's because in the story itself only 8 months pass between Pilaf getting his wish granted and Goku and Krillin participating in the 21st. TB. I guess it's a case of Toriyama forgetting what he had previously established in volume 2.

Upon looking at the all-battles section in Daizenshuu 2 there are some entries that can be noted for being slightly off. The section seems to work in a way, where it lists the chapter in which the battle began. So the battle against Raditz for example that lasts several chapters begins in chapter 199, while it isn't stated that the battle ends in chapter 204.

So following that logic I found some battles, where the listed chapters are slightly off. But they really aren't off by much and it also comes down to, when you define a battle as having started, but anyways:

The finals of the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai is listed as beginning in chapter 47, when in actuality the match begins at the end of chapter 46.(As I said, it really comes down to the smallest of details, but there are examples of announcements of battles being defined as the battle beginning)*
Goku's fight against Akkuman is listed as beginning in chapter 104, when it actually began at the end of chapter 103.
Goku vs. Pilaf Gang is listed as starting in chapter 110, when it arguably already had begun in the previous chapter.
Goku vs. Yajirobe is listed as beginning in chapter 137, even though Yajirobe first appears in chapter 138.
Vegeta vs. #18 is listed as beginning in chapter 353, when it begins in the previous chapter.
Gohan vs. Spopowitch and Yamu is listed as beginning in chapter 445, but in actuality it took place in chapter 444.

*

Example 1: King Chapa's match against Goku is listed as beginning in chapter 114, even though it's first in the next chapter they fight, which means that the writers probably really did define a match as having begun, when the announcer tells them to battle, which a lot of my examples are based on.
Example 2: Goku's first battle with Piccolo Daimao is listed as beginning in chapter 142, which is another example that the battles really are considered started, when someone begins to attack.
Example 3: Krillin's battle with Piccolo is listed as beginning in chapter 171, the chapter where Goku marries Chi Chi, which is another example that fights are considered started, when they are announced.
Example 4: Goku's battle with Piccolo lends more credence to the idea as well, as it's listed as having begun in chapter 182, even though the setup is just like the finals at the 21st TB, where the final match in that tournament is listed as beginning in the chapter after they are told to begin.

There are other examples as well.

The following just seems like a typo though http://www.kanzentai.com/trans-daiz02.p ... attle#link.
Battle 144 is listed as taking place in chapter 386, when in fact it takes place in chapter 396.
Battle 143 took place in chapter 386, which it is also listed as.

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:45 pm

Since the actual chapter numbers aren't listed in the tankoubon, I think it's a bit negligible that they're off. It must have been a pain just trying to keep track of this stuff.

dbgtFO · Post by **dbgtFO** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:52 pm

They aren't listed in the tankoubon? They are listed in the Viz versions and danish versions, but they aren't listed in the original volumes?
That's just weird, if that's the case.
And even if it is, they have all the chapter numbers listed in the Adventure History section anyways:
http://www.kanzentai.com/trans-daiz02.p ... _hist#link

Post by **Herms** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:10 pm

kenisu3000 wrote:1. The timeline states that Pilaf summoned Shen Long (and Oolong had his panty wish granted) on September 9, 749. Then Silver from the Red Ribbon Army starts having his team look for a DragonBall on April 18, 750. The DragonBalls take a full year to revive from being stones after a wish is granted, and until then, they cannot be detected on radar. Even if you count the insane possibility that Silver was ordered by Commander Red to simply to comb the entire world for the Balls without help from a radar, the entire Red Ribbon arc begins and ends months before September 9, according to this wonky timeline.

That's a mistake in the series itself though, not the daizenshuu. After the whole mess with Pilaf and Shenlong ends, Goku goes straight to Kame-sennin's, trains for 8 months, goes to the Tenkaichi Budoukai, then goes out to hunt the dragonballs again. There's really no place to stick in 4 extra months, at least not without leading to the awkward assumption that entire months can pass by unannounced and unmarked in any way.

2. In the Human Racial Dictionary, there's no entry for Mint, the girl whom Kuririn crushes on in the two-part filler just before the 23rd Budokai. Being a filler character makes no difference - in fact, Princess Misa, who shows up in only one episode (and who, in black-and-white, looks a heck of a lot like Mint) has an entry. If Mint were in the book, she'd be on page 113, between the entries for Minoshia and the Mousse household.
There are probably other characters missing from the Human Racial Dictionary, but Mint's absence is one I particularly noticed.

Yeah, General White is probably the most notable omission, followed by Bibidi and some of the Kaioshins. It also seems that the Daizenshuu 7 dictionaries are always much more thorough listing things from the manga than the anime. So people like the skeleton guardian at Uranai Baba's palace (who is in one panel and never talks) or the TV announcer who talks about Cell's rampage are included because they're in the manga, while characters like Mint who have comparatively bigger roles are left out because they're only filler.

DragonBoxZTheMovies wrote:Listening right now guys! Great podcast so far. Oh, and the idea of Tenshinhan being able to use the Kaioken is from his filler battle with the Ginyu Force where he kinda powers up and he gains a red aura.

That doesn't explain why people think the daizenshuu said he can use it though.

Let's see, what else was left out?

Mike mentioned on Twitter that we didn't cover the French Daizenshuu 7 calling Tullece Goku's twin brother. Is that from the French Daizenshuu 7 though, or some other French source? Because I remember Julian mentioning that mistake in an earlier podcast, but not it being connected with the French daizenshuu.

The French Daizenshuu 7's timeline is however supposed to mention Goku's mother dying of an illness, whereas in the original timeline it mentions Chi-Chi's mother. This mistake is especially notable because Chi-Chi's mother is listed as dying after Planet Vegeta's destruction, so by accidentally changing it to Goku's mother, they make it sound like she somehow survived the planet blowing up.

Greg Werner's Daizenshuu 7 timeline translation also mistakenly referred to Kame-sennin meeting Sea Turtle a year before the start of the series, while gathering mushrooms. Actually the original timeline says that Kame-sennin's pet Sea Turtle got lost a year before the series began while out hunting mushrooms (something he explains in the series itself when he meets Goku and Bulma). Werner's timeline also refers to the child of Katatz as "Piccolo", leading some people to think he was called that even before the split (which I guess isn't exactly ruled out in the series, but the original timeline doesn't support the idea)

Daizenshuu 7's special attack index lists both the God of the Previous Generation and the Gods of the Past, who both only use the electric shock attack. For a long time I thought this was a mistake and they listed the same group under two different names (owing in part to me misunderstanding/mistranslating the names so it wasn't clear that the former was probably just one guy and the latter a group). But actually "God of the Previous Generation" is the God of Earth prior to the child of Katatz, while "Gods of the Past" are all the gods before even that. Both these guys appear in the Garlic Jr. filler arc, but the God of the Previous Generation is mentioned in the manga and has a role in DBZ movie 1's backstory, so that's probably why they felt he had enough of an identity on his own to not lump him in with the other prior gods.

For an actual mistake, the attack index doesn't list Goku as ever using rapid-fire ki blasts, though he uses such an attack while fighting Cell. The attack dictionary also doesn't include the attack Freeza uses to destroy Planet Namek. I suppose they might have just considered it no different than an ordinary ki blast, but then they have an entry for the attack Pure Boo uses to destroy the Earth, and the entry even mentions Freeza using a similar technique. But they don't have an entry for that technique, or list Freeza as using Boo's technique.

Post by **TripleRach** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:46 pm

JulieYBM wrote:Since the actual chapter numbers aren't listed in the tankoubon, I think it's a bit negligible that they're off. It must have been a pain just trying to keep track of this stuff.

I haven't listened to the podcast yet, but... what? The chapter numbers are very much present in the original tankoubon, right next to the corresponding title. They're both on the table of contents page in each book and between each chapter (either in a "Next is 355 (Title)" way, or on the title page).

Post by **Herms** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:50 pm

dbgtFO wrote:[*]Goku vs. Yajirobe is listed as beginning in chapter 137, even though Yajirobe first appears in chapter 138.
[*]Gohan vs. Spopowitch and Yamu is listed as beginning in chapter 445, but in actuality it took place in chapter 444.
[*]Example 3: Krillin's battle with Piccolo is listed as beginning in chapter 171, the chapter where Goku marries Chi Chi, which is another example that fights are considered started, when they are announced.

Ugh, these three are more typos on my part. The book lists them as beginning in chapters 138, 444, and 172, respectively.

The following just seems like a typo though http://www.kanzentai.com/trans-daiz02.p ... attle#link.
Battle 144 is listed as taking place in chapter 386, when in fact it takes place in chapter 396.
Battle 143 took place in chapter 386, which it is also listed as.

Yep, typo.

All the other numbers you listed are that way in the book.

dbgtFO · Post by **dbgtFO** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:59 pm

Haha, all those typos.
No one is perfect afterall

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 3:25 pm

TripleRach wrote:
JulieYBM wrote:Since the actual chapter numbers aren't listed in the tankoubon, I think it's a bit negligible that they're off. It must have been a pain just trying to keep track of this stuff.
I haven't listened to the podcast yet, but... what? The chapter numbers are very much present in the original tankoubon, right next to the corresponding title. They're both on the table of contents page in each book and between each chapter (either in a "Next is 355 (Title)" way, or on the title page).

Oh. They're in Kanji.

ArchedThunder · Post by **ArchedThunder** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:27 am

I would love to know the details on the oddity of the fourth (seemingly nonexistent) timeline that creates an extra Cell. I've never heard of that tidbit until now.

dbgtFO · Post by **dbgtFO** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:51 am

ArchedThunder wrote:I would love to know the details on the oddity of the fourth (seemingly nonexistent) timeline that creates an extra Cell. I've never heard of that tidbit until now.

Basically there's a fourth timeline, where the Trunks that was killed by Cell travelled to. In that timeline they somehow found blueprints, that show how to shut the androids down, which they did instead of fighting them again. The weird thing about this 4th timeline is that Daizenshuu 7 claims a Cell Games was held without Trunks being present.
But anyways here's the chart explaining all the different futures as translated by TripleRach.
http://magikarp46.com/dragonball/guideb ... 07-034.jpg

Kanzenshuu

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